NY - Jordan Neely, killed by chokehold in subway during mental health crisis, Manhattan, 1 May 2023 *arrest* #2

[otto]

@otto with all due respect, your quote about Neely’s behavior is from his killer’s attorney. The investigation is not complete, and we have not been told exactly what happened. What we do know is that Penny used a dangerous chokehold on Mr Neely and killed him in the process.

No one is endorsing the tolerating of violence in public by anyone. <modsnip>

JMO

Thank you!
Even if I read the entire thread, I would still be lost.

What mystery are we trying to solve? Why the mentally ill man who was threatening violence was disarmed, unfortunately to his detriment? Why was this mentally ill man on the street?

<modsnip> It seems apparent that his safety was at risk due to his erratic, potentially violent behaviour.

 

[Lilibet]

Thank you!
Even if I read the entire thread, I would still be lost.

What mystery are we trying to solve? Why the mentally ill man who was threatening violence was disarmed, unfortunately to his detriment? Why was this mentally ill man on the street?

Where is his family? It seems apparent that his safety was at risk due to his erratic, potentially violent behaviour.

The main mysteries at this point @otto are:
1) Was anyone in danger of being attacked by Neely—we don’t have complete witness statements yet.
2) If someone was in danger, who was it? A passenger? All passengers? Penny claims self-defense, but he came from behind Neely. We don’t have specific information about possible altercations yet.
3) Why did Penny use an extremely dangerous, potentially lethal chokehold and continue to use it when two men came to help and another man warned him he could be killing Neely? Penny will likely explain all this to the grand jury, but we don’t have that information yet.

So around and around we go.

As to why he was on the street, he had not been found and incarcerated by those with the power to do so. It’s a big city. We all agree that he needed either jail or a treatment facility, but there aren’t enough beds for everyone who should be in one.

His family had no power to force him to get help, as is the case with most mentally ill.

In a perfect world none of this would have happened, but sadly it’s not.

The bottom line IMO, is that Jordan Neely did not deserve to die and Daniel Penny had no right to restrain him to the point of death.

JMO

 

[Ontario Mom]

What mystery are we trying to solve? Why the mentally ill man who was threatening violence was disarmed, unfortunately to his detriment? Why was this mentally ill man on the street?

<RSBM>

I don't think there's any mystery here at all.
A man on a subway acted in a violent, threatening manner, verbally expressed threats to the people in his immediate vicinty, those people then immediately moved away from him, and another man (with the assistance of 2 other men) attempted to restrain him and prevent him from acting on those threats he'd just verbalized. Unfortunately, the restraint was too tight, lasted too long, and the violent, threatening man died as a result.

If you remove all the key buzzwords designed to incite division the headlines keep shoving in our faces, what happened was rather clear cut.

jmo

 

[Rolypolyoly]

BBM. iirc, the ME's office made it clear there was other medical testing they needed to do before releasing the autopsy report. I think the only reason Penny kept the hold was because the group knew 911 had been called and they were waiting for police to arrive.

JMO

The ME's office is quoted as saying cause of death was homicide. Waiting for tox results won't change cause or mode of death. Jordan Neely died because he was put in a prolonged chokehold, <modsnip: personalizing>

 

[Lilibet]

The ME's office is quoted as saying cause of death was homicide. Waiting for tox results won't change cause or mode of death. Jordan Neely died because he was put in a prolonged chokehold, <modsnip: personalizing>.

In addition, the ME only mentioned testing of Mr Neely’s neck tissue. In the article I read, he did not mention tox results. So the testing has to do with injuries to his neck during the compression that killed him. <modsnip>

 

[Rolypolyoly]

<modsnip - quoted post and response was removed>

Absolutely tremendous post by @10ofRods
i don’t believe it’s curable or even long-term treatable.
it may become so one day, medication advances. It’s not now. Now it’s just dangerous as hell.
i prioritize safety of the community.

What do you suggest as a solution?.

I agree safety in the community is paramount, but you can't just lock mentally ill people away indefinitely, if they respond to treatment, they should be free to live their lives just like the rest of society, but there's a good chance that if they are left in charge of their own treatment, they may stop taking their meds, and then possibly become dangerous, but you can't lock people away for what they might do.

I don't know how that balance would be achieved.

 

[Ontario Mom]

<modsnip>

I'm not sure what kind of consequence Penny should face for what he did (aside from living with the fact he took a human life). I don't think it should be jail time, but I think it should be something that makes a positive difference, such as some sort of community service hours where he spends time assisting in homeless shelters or mental health advocacy groups or something like that. Possibly even a fine, and the money from that going directly to these sorts of groups.

I want to see something positive, useful, helpful and beneficial come out of this tragic case.
Anyone else?

 

[MyBelle]

In addition, the ME only mentioned testing of Mr Neely’s neck tissue. In the article I read, he did not mention tox results. So the testing has to do with injuries to his neck during the compression that killed him. <modsnip>

The ME listed manner of death as homicide and he said he was going to do further testing of JN's neck tissue. Apparently, he wasn't convinced the sole manner of death was caused by the chokehold. Perhaps this is because JN's family and the social workers later said JN abused K2/Spice, which is either inhaled or smoked. His throat tissue may have been damaged as a result of his illicit drug use which, in turn, may have made him more susceptible to a neck restraint. The defense does have a right to know the scientific and medical evidence. <modsnip>

JMO

Synthetic Cannabinoids | National Institute on Drug Abuse

Synthetic cannabinoids are human-made mind-altering chemicals that are either sprayed on dried, shredded plant material so they can be smoked or sold as liquids to be vaporized and inhaled in e-cigarettes and other devices.

nida.nih.gov

 

[shotgun09]

IMO, I will not go so far as to call Daniel Penny a hero, but I will stand firm that he is NOT a villain. For clarification purposes also, I would ride the subway with him, if given the opportunity.

IMO, he is a young man, who saw a threat of violence, and acted, regardless of the social status that was Mr Neely. There was no racial consideration/motive by Penny. That continues to be disputed and pushed by MSM and others. There was not an ounce of anti-homeless 'intolerance' shown, but that is pushed as a talking point. IMO, The " DP was too aggressive with the mentally ill" is another divisive plan of action. He didn't jump in to restrain Neely because he was a Mental Health patient. He restrained him due to his violent and aggressive behavior. <modsnip: ridiculing input by others is not tolerated> The attempt to place Penny in the political arena to divide is not surprising either.

<modsnip>

Peace

 

[kittythehare]

Jordan Neely's family to file wrongful death suit against Daniel Penny

Jordan Neely's family declared their intention to file a wrongful death suit against Marine veteran Daniel Penny after the homeless man was killed after Penny put him in a chokehold.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[Ontario Mom]

Jordan Neely's family to file wrongful death suit against Daniel Penny

Jordan Neely's family declared their intention to file a wrongful death suit against Marine veteran Daniel Penny after the homeless man was killed after Penny put him in a chokehold.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Of course they are. I fully expected it.

 

[10ofRods]

The ME listed manner of death as homicide and he said he was going to do further testing of JN's neck tissue. Apparently, he wasn't convinced the sole manner of death was caused by the chokehold. Perhaps this is because JN's family and the social workers later said JN abused K2/Spice, which is either inhaled or smoked. His throat tissue may have been damaged as a result of his illicit drug use which, in turn, may have made him more susceptible to a neck restraint. The defense does have a right to know the scientific and medical evidence. <modsnip>

JMO

Synthetic Cannabinoids | National Institute on Drug Abuse

Synthetic cannabinoids are human-made mind-altering chemicals that are either sprayed on dried, shredded plant material so they can be smoked or sold as liquids to be vaporized and inhaled in e-cigarettes and other devices.

nida.nih.gov

We don't breathe through our throats. Are you saying there's evidence that synthetic cannabinoids cause damage to the trachea?

What I suspect is that they actually want to examine neck tissue for reasons related to length of chokehold (there would be a number of microscopic bleed-outs into the neck area, I would think, if the pressure were tight enough - sort of like internal bruising. I guess we have to wait to find out.

The tox panel of course will tell whether Neely was taking any substance that would have depressed respiration on its own - the neck study might tell whether the hold was long enough to kill any person kept away from oxygen for the length of time indicated by the microscopic bleeding. It's called petechiae. I would expect a crushed larynx/windpipe but the number of petechiae and the areas where they are found would indicate something about the length of the struggle and the length of the dying process. IMO.

I'm certainly no expert in strangulation. But I would think that such a study would help determine whether the person choked to death or died from outright asphyxiation. The bruising and tiny bleeds would be on the inside of the neck (as opposed to on the outside where it would be clear it was a manual strangulation - this was not a manual strangulation, so maybe more complex).

Just speculating. IMO. Below article is just an overview, there are lots of more specific studies in the medical lit.

Homicidal Asphyxia : The American Journal of Forensic Medicine and Pathology

ory was ligature strangulation with 48 deaths (21 male, 27 female). Petechiae were present in the conjunctivae and/or sclerae in 86% of the cases; fractures of the hyoid and/or thyroid cartilage were present in 12.5%. There were a total of 41 deaths from manual strangulation (27 female, 14...

journals.lww.com

 

[Rolypolyoly]

IMO, I will not go so far as to call Daniel Penny a hero, but I will stand firm that he is NOT a villain. For clarification purposes also, I would ride the subway with him, if given the opportunity.

IMO, he is a young man, who saw a threat of violence, and acted, regardless of the social status that was Mr Neely. There was no racial consideration/motive by Penny. That continues to be disputed and pushed by MSM and others. There was not an ounce of anti-homeless 'intolerance' shown, but that is pushed as a talking point. IMO, The " DP was too aggressive with the mentally ill" is another divisive plan of action. He didn't jump in to restrain Neely because he was a Mental Health patient. He restrained him due to his violent and aggressive behavior. The ridiculous (IMO ) notion that a tattoo taken from a Bible Story is proof of 'intolerance' is laughable. The attempt to place Penny in the political arena to divide is not surprising either.

<modsnip>

Peace

There is a lot in your post that I agree with, most if it actually.

I would have no issue being on a train with DP (Well, I would, but that's because I don't do trains and would be uncomfortable on one with anyone), I would have no issue living with him as my neighbour, as a previous posted asked, either.

I don't think he is a bad guy, not some raging vigilante, not a racist, not a murderer, and not someone who intentionally took someone's life.

I agree with you about all the nonsense circulating about tattoos too.

I also agree that he acted on his perception of events with no motive other than to remove the perceived threat, although I believe he was wrong.

One way my opinion differs is your post says he restrained JN due to his violent and aggressive behaviour, I haven't seen any reports thus far that JN was violent on this occasion. Aggressive yes, violent? Not as far as we know.

Some of your post has been snipped so I don't know if I would've agreed with those parts or not.

 

[squareandrabbet]

We don't breathe through our throats. Are you saying there's evidence that synthetic cannabinoids cause damage to the trachea?

What I suspect is that they actually want to examine neck tissue for reasons related to length of chokehold (there would be a number of microscopic bleed-outs into the neck area, I would think, if the pressure were tight enough - sort of like internal bruising. I guess we have to wait to find out.

The tox panel of course will tell whether Neely was taking any substance that would have depressed respiration on its own - the neck study might tell whether the hold was long enough to kill any person kept away from oxygen for the length of time indicated by the microscopic bleeding. It's called petechiae. I would expect a crushed larynx/windpipe but the number of petechiae and the areas where they are found would indicate something about the length of the struggle and the length of the dying process. IMO.

I'm certainly no expert in strangulation. But I would think that such a study would help determine whether the person choked to death or died from outright asphyxiation. The bruising and tiny bleeds would be on the inside of the neck (as opposed to on the outside where it would be clear it was a manual strangulation - this was not a manual strangulation, so maybe more complex).

Just speculating. IMO. Below article is just an overview, there are lots of more specific studies in the medical lit.

Homicidal Asphyxia : The American Journal of Forensic Medicine and Pathology

ory was ligature strangulation with 48 deaths (21 male, 27 female). Petechiae were present in the conjunctivae and/or sclerae in 86% of the cases; fractures of the hyoid and/or thyroid cartilage were present in 12.5%. There were a total of 41 deaths from manual strangulation (27 female, 14...

journals.lww.com

Synthetic cannabinoid induced acute respiratory depression: Case series and literature review

Synthetic Cannabinoids are a street drug that is widely attainable and cheap compared to natural cannabis, and has variable potency and unpredictable effects with no commercially available diagnostic test to confirm its presence. Similar to natural cannabis, ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

We report four patients admitted in the Intensive Care Unit with acute respiratory failure necessitating endotracheal intubation after use of Synthetic Cannabinoid. All patients had a reversal of respiratory failure in less than 24 h, three patients had a complicated course due to aspiration pneumonia. All four patients exhibited aggressive behavior, with two of them diagnosed with Bipolar Disorder and Cocaine Use Disorder.

The effect of Synthetic Cannabinoids in peripheral receptors such as chemoreceptors and baroreceptors can increase bronchial airway resistance.

(more at link, but it gets pretty impenetrable IMO.)

 

[Jade]

IMO, I will not go so far as to call Daniel Penny a hero, but I will stand firm that he is NOT a villain. For clarification purposes also, I would ride the subway with him, if given the opportunity.

IMO, he is a young man, who saw a threat of violence, and acted, regardless of the social status that was Mr Neely. There was no racial consideration/motive by Penny. That continues to be disputed and pushed by MSM and others. There was not an ounce of anti-homeless 'intolerance' shown, but that is pushed as a talking point. IMO, The " DP was too aggressive with the mentally ill" is another divisive plan of action. He didn't jump in to restrain Neely because he was a Mental Health patient. He restrained him due to his violent and aggressive behavior. The ridiculous (IMO ) notion that a tattoo taken from a Bible Story is proof of 'intolerance' is laughable. The attempt to place Penny in the political arena to divide is not surprising either.

<modsnip>

Peace

Since I posted about the possible subject of the tattoo and provided the relevant verses:

The bible story of Sampson is not about intolerance.

Perhaps that’s why that notion was laughable.

My post and links were about who Sampson was and his times.


As posted DP could have picked the tattoo from the samples on the wall or admired it on another.

He probably thought it was Prince Valaint.



all imo

 

[Ontario Mom]

"I tried to start filming from that moment, but I didn’t because I couldn’t see anything — it was too crowded. And then I heard him take off his jacket. He bundled it up and just threw it on the floor, very violently. You could hear the sound of the zipper hitting the floor. At that moment, when he threw the jacket, the people who were sitting around him stood up and moved away. He kept standing there and he kept yelling." ‘I Wasn’t Thinking That Anybody Was Going to Die.’

For those who keep insisting Jordan Neely didn't act out any violence, or attack anyone, or make any direct threats to anyone, or behave in any kind of violent way... I wonder if you can take one guess at why those sitting around him that day on the train, stood up and moved away?

 

[Sundog]

<modsnip>

I'm not sure what kind of consequence Penny should face for what he did (aside from living with the fact he took a human life). I don't think it should be jail time, but I think it should be something that makes a positive difference, such as some sort of community service hours where he spends time assisting in homeless shelters or mental health advocacy groups or something like that. Possibly even a fine, and the money from that going directly to these sorts of groups.

I want to see something positive, useful, helpful and beneficial come out of this tragic case.
Anyone else?

Articles on Penny say that he is studying architecture in college, and he says he became interested in architecture after he travelled around the world and saw the various structures and how people lived. He may be able to make a positive contribution to housing for the homeless in some creative way, that would use his skills and make a difference to the homeless population.

 

[Sillybilly]

The ME listed manner of death as homicide and he said he was going to do further testing of JN's neck tissue. Apparently, he wasn't convinced the sole manner of death was caused by the chokehold. Perhaps this is because JN's family and the social workers later said JN abused K2/Spice, which is either inhaled or smoked. His throat tissue may have been damaged as a result of his illicit drug use which, in turn, may have made him more susceptible to a neck restraint. The defense does have a right to know the scientific and medical evidence. <modsnip>

JMO

Synthetic Cannabinoids | National Institute on Drug Abuse

Synthetic cannabinoids are human-made mind-altering chemicals that are either sprayed on dried, shredded plant material so they can be smoked or sold as liquids to be vaporized and inhaled in e-cigarettes and other devices.

nida.nih.gov

The Vazquez video I've seen starts where Penny already had Neely down and in an established chokehold (for how long prior to that, I don't know). Penny does not release until 2:54 into that video. That's a MINIMUM of 2 minutes 54 seconds that Neely was in the chokehold (not factoring in however long he had been held prior to the start of the video).

Regardless of any pre-existing condition(s) that could ultimately be found to be a contributing factor, any person reasonably trained in a chokehold technique has to know that a chokehold for that length of time can kill someone who doesn't even have any pre-existing condition.

"His death resulted from compression of the neck, the city's medical examiner ruled."

The ME has already ruled that, not only was the MOD homicide, but that the actual COD was compression of the neck. Even if a pre-existing condition was a contributing factor, had Penny not done what he did, it is unlikely that Neely would have stood there at that moment in time and died with his neck being compressed by unknown forces. The COD of compression that killed Neely was applied to him by another person = MOD homicide (manslaughter).

We still don't have an indictment in this case, but an interesting 2017 precedent in Alaska where a person was arrested and charged with 2nd degree murder for punching the victim in the head. The victim had a pre-existing condition (aneurysm) that was a contributing factor. Although not indicted for murder, he was indicted on the criminally negligent homicide and manslaughter charges. Unknown what verdict a jury may have reached on an NG plea because the defendant plead to the criminally negligent homicide and the manslaughter charge was dismissed.

Edited Para 3 to change COD to "compression of the neck" (instead of "the chokehold").

 

[caradana]

Well worth the read, apologies if it has been posted previously. The System That Failed Jordan Neely

 

[Rolypolyoly]

"I tried to start filming from that moment, but I didn’t because I couldn’t see anything — it was too crowded. And then I heard him take off his jacket. He bundled it up and just threw it on the floor, very violently. You could hear the sound of the zipper hitting the floor. At that moment, when he threw the jacket, the people who were sitting around him stood up and moved away. He kept standing there and he kept yelling." ‘I Wasn’t Thinking That Anybody Was Going to Die.’

For those who keep insisting Jordan Neely didn't act out any violence, or attack anyone, or make any direct threats to anyone, or behave in any kind of violent way... I wonder if you can take one guess at why those sitting around him that day on the train, stood up and moved away?

I'm sure we all can. I can also say with absolute certainty that I would have been wary and uncomfortable at the very least, and I think I would have retreated too if possible, and I would have no doubt been concerned that JN could have turned violent.

I, for one, am not disputing that, I am however, disputing that he did anything violent, or attacked anybody at that time, in that subway car on that day.

We can all guess at what he may have done until the cows come home, but we won't ever know, because he was restrained and ultimately killed before anyone could know for certain, in that subway car, on that day, in this instance.

I don't think Daniel Penny is any of the things he has been accused of, that includes being a hero. ALL JUST MOO.