GUILTY MI - 4 students killed, 6 injured, Oxford High School shooting, 30 Nov 2021 *Arrest incl parents* *teen guilty* #6

[cottonweaver]

It's not clear if he had ever been assessed by a doctor or psychiatrist prior to the shooting for things like anxiety, ADHD, etc. His parents said he had anxiety, but I wonder if they had ever taken him for testing/diagnosis.

Some diagnoses run in families, and this one seems to have a lot going on.
I believe the need for excessive spending, affairs, etc. means something. JMO.

IIRC Jennifer testified that she suffered from anxiety.
Later, on cross, Keast pointed out to her that she'd sought medical help for her anxiety and MH issues but not for her son ( The photos of med prescriptions found in her purse on the day the art studio was raided)

 

[Izzylizzy]

It's not clear if he had ever been assessed by a doctor or psychiatrist prior to the shooting for things like anxiety, ADHD, etc. His parents said he had anxiety, but I wonder if they had ever taken him for testing/diagnosis.

Some diagnoses run in families, and this one seems to have a lot going on.
I believe the need for excessive spending, affairs, etc. means something. JMO.

I consider spending $20,000 + cash purchases for your horses the same year you owed over $11,000 on your house payments as being a grossly negligent parent.
Testimony entered at trial that JC said half her salary goes to the horses.
In June 2021 JC also bought her 2nd horse Billy for $5,000 online, while drunk.
If the house foreclosed EC would have lost his home due to his parents putting their love for their horses over him and his home.

 

[ChatteringBirds]

If the house foreclosed EC would have lost his home

I've also thought that eventually they would have lost their home. They bought so many "wants" (including the gun!) while ignoring "needs," like the mortgage.

 

[cottonweaver]

I consider spending $20,000 + cash purchases for your horses the same year you owed over $11,000 on your house payments as being a grossly negligent parent.
Testimony entered at trial that JC said half her salary goes to the horses.
In June 2021 JC also bought her 2nd horse Billy for $5,000 online, while drunk.
If the house foreclosed EC would have lost his home due to his parents putting their love for their horses over him and his home.

Bolded. 'Hypervigilant' , ' planning go- mode', super cautious

Also interesting to me that she accepted Keast's calculation that she spent half her salary on her hobby - the horses. She almost seemed proud of it.

She also accepted that horses weren't James's ' thing' and he was a rare visitor to the barn.
( IDK how much James earned or what he spent his $ on but I guess that most people on WS wouldn't be best pleased if their partner/ spouse told them 'Hey, just to let you know, I'm gonna spend half my income on a hobby, suck it up buttercup')

 

[Weki]

The JFP was actually VERY clear in articulating her reason for the guilty verdict outside the courthouse: JC was the last adult in possession of the gun. No confusion there: she couldn't have been more definite or explicit IMO.

Ok I’m glad it was clear to you. I was stating my opinion. It’s not clear to me.

 

[RickshawFan]

Betcha JC regrets saying she has 'no regrets'.​

'THE SENTENCE'​

The maximum penalty for involuntary manslaughter is 15 years in prison. Matthews’ job on April 9 will be to set the minimum term to be served before Jennifer Crumbley is eligible for parole.

That minimum could be as high as 10 years, said Raben, adding that the sentences on four convictions would likely be served at the same time and not stacked.

As she considers a sentence, the judge undoubtedly will think about Jennifer Crumbley’s testimony in which she expressed no regrets about how she dealt with her son and the school on the day of the shooting. “We did lose a lot,” she said, summing up the tragedy'.

What's next for Jennifer and James Crumbley, the parents of the Michigan school shooter?

Jennifer Crumbley is the first parent in the U.S. to be found criminally responsible for a mass school attack conducted by their child, even though she didn't pull the trigger.

apnews.com

IMO even if she hadn’t said “no regrets” explicitly, it would have been implicit in most everything she said on the stand and everything she said his whole life to Ethan.

 

[cottonweaver]

Haha actually when I was listening to that I thought of what you said. I think I had just read your comment about him and then watched that. He usually gets away with seeming like he’s watched all the evidence but he gave himself away with that one.

<modsnip - not an approved source>

( I also doubt that the Jennifer jurors will accept defense atty's application to do extensive interviews with them. I guess they all decided in advance that they trusted the foreperson to give some brief feedback to the media)

 

[Izzylizzy]

IMO even if she hadn’t said “no regrets” explicitly, it would have been implicit in most everything she said on the stand and everything she said his whole life to Ethan.

Agree, yet the jury was spared that debate because it came straight from the horses mouth and they ran with her "no regrets".

 

[Izzylizzy]

Ask 100 parents of kids that when/if their grades start to nose dive what it the first thing they take away or limit them using?

Betcha 95% say phone/computer access and the other 5% of parents have kids that don't own phones.

JC couldn't be bothered though, it was easier for her to have a quiet and contented EC holed up in his toxic bedroom looking up school shootings and guns while she was with her horses or carrying -on with her boyfriend and/or having meet-ups with strangers .
Curious if any of the psychiatrists /therapists asked him about the Hitler coin that was on his nightstand?


"She opened by explaining that she doesn't like speaking in front of people and that public speaking was one of her biggest fears. Smith then started taking Crumbley through her home life – including her son's hobbies, which included bowling, metal detecting, and coin collecting.

She then discussed her son's interests in school, which largely included one subject.

"He really liked history. He was a big history buff. We can play Trivial Pursuit and he would get me a history every single time, but that was probably his that was probably his only favorite subject. The rest he could do without," Crumbley said.

She then was asked bout her son's grades, which was something that caused a lot of arguments between her and her son because he wouldn't turn in his assignments.

"His grades would fluctuate based on what assignments the teachers turned down on the power school app. Our biggest struggle with him were missing assignments. That was the one thing we battled all the time," Crumbley said. "Because there's no reason why he should have missing assignments. He had a homeroom class and could get assignments done in."

Jennifer Crumbley trial: Mom of Oxford shooter takes stand in her defense

Jennifer Crumbley testified during her trial for involuntary manslaughter. Here's everything she said.

www.fox2detroit.com

 

[Sundog]

Some of this I agree with, but the interesting thing is that some of the most successful people had questionable childhoods. Some were abused, some were neglected--but for some odd reason, they chose to pull themselves up by their bootstraps and exceed everyone's expectations.

I don't know what the difference is, but I sense it might have something to do with the way we've come to expect more from parents and less from children. A century or so ago, a 15-year-old male would have likely had more access to firearms and his family would have expected him to know how to use them to hunt or shoot a rattlesnake. Or, protect the family if need be. How different it is today.

It's different from even half a century ago. I grew up in the mountains of Colorado, and the teen boys (mostly rancher's kids) drove pickups with gunracks in the back windows--they were responsible for their guns. I remember one hunting accident but no school or other mass shootings.

I don't think we expect enough of our kids these days. They do bad things, and we look elsewhere for blame.

I agree that JC was irresponsible when it came to EC's gun. I think the right thing to do would have been for the parents of the victims to sue her into the poor house and garnish every check she ever earned for the rest of her life.

But, I don't agree that she was guilty of involuntary manslaughter. And, I can't imagine that won't be overturned on appeal. But, then again, I was stunned to hear the jury came back with a guilty verdict, so maybe I'm the one who's wrong.

I, too, think that it will be overturned on appeal. Also agree about a civil suit by the families as the right direction to have gone in a case like this.

Hoping for a light sentence by the judge as JC awaits her appeal, if it is forthcoming.

 

[Sundog]

I know many people who are very successful who had disastrous childhoods, provided success is reflected in careers and financials. I often find them out of touch and emotionally impaired. IMO childhood lack of attachment is very damaging.

I agree that we don’t demand more from our kids today, but for me, this has nothing to do with guns. I’ve always found American schools to be egregiously lacking in discipline and academic challenge. I attended schools all over the world, and I never saw any that were so undemanding in terms of behavior in the classroom, the noise, the talking back, the not doing homework, the demands for attention, chewing gum, lack of rigor in academics, as the American schools were. It was very upsetting to me. I begged not to be placed in them, though some of them were the pride of their communities (e.g. American military schools abroad). I visited other American schools for the day (e.g. with cousins), and little was expected in those, either. This caused me to be placed in some fairly bizarre schools, but I wasn’t going to learn anything at the American ones. It has always been this way, as far as I can tell. The school shootings are more recent, but the lack of accountability and expectations from adults in the US has always blown my mind. IMO

I don’t believe we expect more from parents: IME we expect less. To use your example, on farms a child might own a gun, but would learn how to use it via dad out in the fields and woods. Dinners might be the whole family. And children weren’t gunning down beings or dueling on the streets. They were shooting dinner, while bonded with other (especially males).

I don’t think at all this verdict will be overturned on appeal. IIRC the manslaughter charge was approved by a higher court. I do think Ethan’s sentence might be overturned because of his age, and because in essence, he was a fifth victim.

Ethan’s parents were already in the hole financially. Suing them civilly would have had zero redress and created massive attorney fees for the victims.

I don't see Ethan as a victim but as a cold-blooded murderer.

 

[Sundog]

The Crumbley's lost 2 tries at appeals already. The appellate court rejected their contention that the charges have no legal justification and then they took it to the Michigan supreme court and they denied it:

It is denied because we are not persuaded that the question should be reviewed by this court.

Of course Jennifer will want her appeal but appellate judges are reluctant to over turn a jury verdict.

2 Cents

It sounds like the Michigan supreme court refused to take up the case, not that they denied it - as in the case was lost on appeal.

I hope JC gets a good appellate attorney who can get the case before the state Supreme Court and then possibly go higher.

edited to add clarification in first line. The court didn't take up the Crumbley parents' case, it wasn't that the case was ever lost on appeal.

 

[Sundog]

<modsnip - not an approved source>

( I also doubt that the Jennifer jurors will accept defense atty's application to do extensive interviews with them. I guess they all decided in advance that they trusted the foreperson to give some brief feedback to the media)

Is it speculation or fact that the other jurors agreed to have one person speak for them/represent them now in the media? The role of foreperson is over with the dismissal of the jury by the judge.

So the juror who is giving media interviews only represents herself, as far as I am aware. I haven't seen anything indicating other jurors have trusted this juror to speak for them.

 

[Boodles]

So this is interesting.

That James was not the last person to use the gun so will the jury let him off?

How much ya wanna bet that James will say that he thought Jennifer secured the gun after using it, even if not true. I do not think his attorney will let the jury hear that he was suppose to secure it, even if true.

He can say that he locked it up after purchasing it but it was Jennifer who unlocked it, used it, then didn't lock it back up.

If this defense is used and there are no incriminating text messages, I wonder if he will not be convicted?

I might be wrong, but after JC texted the pic of drawing sent to her by the school, didn’t James send her 2 texts:
1. “WTF,” then immediately,
2. Something about the horse

If it wasn’t that scenario, in one of their exchanges about something alarming EC related, he immediately switched gears from to chatting about thee horse instead.

 

[Boodles]

DH and I have been discussing and wondering if Mariell Lehman might want to negotiate a plea deal with the Prosecutor. Given that Jennifer was convicted, maybe James is now concerned about the outcome of his trial. What do you think? Will James actually go to trial, or will he want his attorney to ask for a plea agreement?

I wonder whether, having convicted HC via a trial, the DA would consider giving James a plea deal at this point. In my observations, most plea deals happen before convictions in related cases, probably because cooperation is often a condition of a deal. It’s not useful as leverage now.

 

[RickshawFan]

@ 2:28 JC testifies about EC's braces he got in middle-school.
EC wouldn't use the water pick and brush like he was supposed to and developed 13 cavities under the wire braces.
The wires had to be removed for the dentist to treat his cavities and then put back on.

13 cavities don't develop overnight and orthodontists check braces for adjustments at the very least once every 2 months and would have seen the cavities developing.

JC's testimony makes no sense to me unless EC never went to have his braces adjusted and the parents never made sure that he was correctly doing the daily mouth routine needed.

Was her testimony supposed to show that she was a mom who was on top of her kid's medical needs?

Ethan Crumbley's mom discusses his messy room and cavities | Daily Mail Online

Jennifer Crumbley, mother of school shooter Ethan Crumbley, tells court she closed door on his messy bedroom to avoid cleaning it and admits his dental hygiene was so bad he had 13 cavities.

www.dailymail.co.uk

You wanna bet JC didn't buy him the required water pik?

 

[IDK]

Ask 100 parents of kids that when/if their grades start to nose dive what it the first thing they take away or limit them using?

Betcha 95% say phone/computer access and the other 5% of parents have kids that don't own phones.

JC couldn't be bothered though, it was easier for her to have a quiet and contented EC holed up in his toxic bedroom looking up school shootings and guns while she was with her horses or carrying -on with her boyfriend and/or having meet-ups with strangers .
Curious if any of the psychiatrists /therapists asked him about the Hitler coin that was on his nightstand?


"She opened by explaining that she doesn't like speaking in front of people and that public speaking was one of her biggest fears. Smith then started taking Crumbley through her home life – including her son's hobbies, which included bowling, metal detecting, and coin collecting.

She then discussed her son's interests in school, which largely included one subject.

"He really liked history. He was a big history buff. We can play Trivial Pursuit and he would get me a history every single time, but that was probably his that was probably his only favorite subject. The rest he could do without," Crumbley said.

She then was asked bout her son's grades, which was something that caused a lot of arguments between her and her son because he wouldn't turn in his assignments.

"His grades would fluctuate based on what assignments the teachers turned down on the power school app. Our biggest struggle with him were missing assignments. That was the one thing we battled all the time," Crumbley said. "Because there's no reason why he should have missing assignments. He had a homeroom class and could get assignments done in."

Jennifer Crumbley trial: Mom of Oxford shooter takes stand in her defense

Jennifer Crumbley testified during her trial for involuntary manslaughter. Here's everything she said.

www.fox2detroit.com

I never thought I would say this, but I do feel some compassion for JC. I don’t know how long EC’s schools had virtual learning during the pandemic, but it was an extremely stressful time for students and their parents.
Of course it is no excuse whatsoever, but maybe she would have been more tuned in as a parent without the added stress of the pandemic?

 

[RickshawFan]

I never thought I would say this, but I do feel some compassion for JC. I don’t know how long EC’s schools had virtual learning during the pandemic, but it was an extremely stressful time for students and their parents.
Of course it is no excuse whatsoever, but maybe she would have been more tuned in as a parent without the added stress of the pandemic?

There's no evidence she treated Ethan any differently before the pandemic. AFAIK. She had a long history of neglecting him.

 

[Izzylizzy]

I might be wrong, but after JC texted the pic of drawing sent to her by the school, didn’t James send her 2 texts:
1. “WTF,” then immediately,
2. Something about the horse

If it wasn’t that scenario, in one of their exchanges about something alarming EC related, he immediately switched gears from to chatting about thee horse instead.

''The meeting at the counselor's office happened after the shooter drew a bleeding person and a gun and wrote "the thoughts won't stop" and "blood everywhere" on the worksheet. Crumbley got a phone call from the school at 9:24 a.m.

She messaged her husband, James Crumbley, after the school called: “Call NOW. Emergency.” Two minutes later, she again sent: “Emergency.” She also sent James images of the worksheet.

James replied, “My god. WTF.”

“He said he was distraught about last night,” Jennifer wrote, and called her husband.'

Recap Day 4: Jennifer Crumbley's attorney refutes claim client didn't answer shooter's texts

Jennnifer Crumbley is being tried on four counts of involuntary manslaughter for the deaths of four students at Oxford High School in November 2021.

www.detroitnews.com

 

[GRT]

School shootings are not happening routinely all over the US. This in particular was an exceptional case. I'm sure there's still millions of kids learning to hunt with family members. And I'm sure there were always a few who misused guns to kill someone, or themselves (as a 15 year old boy in my class did in high school) . But those would have been private, local tragedies. Not staged, quasi-terrorist attacks guaranteed to feature on national news.

JMO

That's a good point -- these mass school shootings seem to be copycat crimes with the intent of ending up on national news.

That makes me wonder how any parents going forward will handle the firearm situation--if they're hunting families. I wonder if they'll change their habits.

I still think it was a bad verdict -- but that's just MOO. I worry it's a slippery slope.