George Zimmerman's injuries #2

[HiHater]

I think that some people are raising the bar to a higher standard than the law requires. GZ would be justified in using deadly force to prevent great bodily harm according to Florida statutes.

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes...ng=&URL=0700-0799/0776/Sections/0776.013.html

I think the debate for some is that there's no evidence of this "great bodily harm", and Trayvon obviously was not even looking for a fight. If there was great bodily harm, or the threat of it, GZ chased down that threat instead of staying in his car.

JMO

 

[cmsg2002]

That's the SYG part that seemingly everyone has a hard time understanding. One only needs to have a reasonable amount of 'fear' of someone killing them. They don't need to continually sustain injuries before that 'fear' is considered valid.

This is why (IMO) some folks are arguing very hard that TM was not involved in the fight because if there is no fight, then there is no way GZ was in 'fear' of his life. But if there was a fight and GZ really was in a defensive position......

I respectfully disagree with the description above of the SYG statute....there is a higher burden than that....but it certainly is a somewhat ambigious law.

 

[cityslick]

True. But if direct testimony from the party involved is the benchmark then we all should pack it up and head for other activities because right now, EVERYTHING is hearsay. Whether it be media reports or cousin's uncle's brothers in law talking, it is all hearsay if we are getting it from anyone other than TM (seance would be needed) or GZ.

Well, if it came direct from GZ, then I would think one could make a determination what is a lie and what isn't (similar to what every other defendent does when telling their story). Hearing it second hand, from people who obviously have a bias in defending their family member is a little more difficult. When it comes to something like a fight, only GZ can say what he thought or felt accordingly during that fight and then one can make an opinion based on the evidence and his injuries. Hearing someone else talk about what GZ thought and felt, when they themselves didn't even see the fight or GZ's reactions before, during and after the fight, leaves me a lot more questions than answers.

 

[HiHater]

This is the part that is relevant to this case.

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes...ng=&URL=0700-0799/0776/Sections/0776.013.html

I do not think this is relevant to the case.

 

[cityslick]

I respectfully disagree with the description above of the SYG statute....there is a higher burden than that....but it certainly is a somewhat ambigious law.

This isn't the SYG thread, but there is certainly precedent for not having that high of a burden.

http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/27/2717572/miami-dade-issues-ruling-in-stand.html

 

[TorisMom003]

What happened to his nose? Did TM get some licks in after he fell on top of him? This would actually play into John's (initial) witness statement.

Saying GZ initially grabbed TM is a flat out guess, because there is no evidence to how it started.

ETA: If GZ was holding on to TM and TM was trying to get away, I would expect some evidence of rips/tears in TM's hoodie. Some evidence that shows that the clothing was being pulled forcefully.

There was a can of Arizona drink in the pocket of Trayvon's hoodie. Forward motion tells me that as Trayvon is falling forward, so will that drink. That can will continue to move forward until something stops its forward motion. Who's to say that Zimmerman's face was not that stopping point? I could very easily see the can hitting Zimmerman in the nose causing not only the mark on the bridge of his nose but also his "two black eyes" the next day.

Saying Trayvon bashed Zimmerman's head into the sidewalk is a guess as well. The only "evidence" that points to that is Zimmerman's word. His head injuries are not severe enough to have had his head bashed into the sidewalk repeatedly. Saying that Trayvon sucker punched Zimmerman is also a guess since we only have Zimmerman's word for it.

There is a reason that MOM and Zimmerman only released bits of the Drs report. I have a very strong feeling that when the full report is released a much different picture will be shown. I also have a very strong feeling that Zimmerman's Dr will make a much better witness for the state than for the defense.

MOO

 

[suzihawk]

Yes his brother who also had GZ close to being in diapers and spoon fed for the rest of his life. When this is brought up, GZ's supporters point out that it was his brother saying this, not GZ, which of course is true. He's not responsible for what his brother or father or Frank Taafe or anyone else says.

We are really handicapped at this point in not having GZ's own account directly. I suspect but won't know until it's made public that there are quite a few strong statements in there that we will find unbelievable.

We're also disadvantaged by not having Trayvon's own account directly. Unfortunately, he's dead due to the altercation. A fact, I think some seem to forget.

 

[cityslick]

There was a can of Arizona drink in the pocket of Trayvon's hoodie. Forward motion tells me that as Trayvon is falling forward, so will that drink. That can will continue to move forward until something stops it's forward motion. Who's to say that Zimmerman's face was not that stopping point? I could very easily see the can hitting Zimmerman in the nose causing not only the mark on the bridge of his nose but also his "two black eyes" the next day.

If that's true then I expect the can to have some sort of dent in it to do that kind of damage to the face. It's the same argument that some say TM used the can as a weapon. You can't have that and the can be free of any dents. Same goes for this scenario

Saying Trayvon bashed Zimmerman's head into the sidewalk is a guess as well. The only "evidence" that points to that is Zimmerman's word. His head injuries are not sever enough to have had his head bashed into the sidewalk repeatedly. Saying that Trayvon sucker punched Zimmerman is also a guess since we only have Zimmerman's word for it.

But there are injuries. There are injuries to the back of the head and his nose. Those didn't just appear out of thin air. I'm only going with what the evidence lends itself too. The injuries on GZ do not disprove his story that TM was beating on him. It doesn't necessarily prove it either, but certainly doesn't rule it out.

There is a reason that MOM and Zimmerman only released bits of the Drs report. I have a very strong feeling that when the full report is released a much different picture will be shown. I also have a very strong feeling that Zimmerman's Dr will make a much better witness for the state than for the defense.

Do you know this for a fact, that the report was not released in it's entirety to the press. Because the way it's been reported, the media does have full access to the medical report, they only reported on the relevant parts of it.

MOO

Responses in Red.

 

[cityslick]

We're also disadvantaged by not having Trayvon's own account directly. Unfortunately, he's dead due to the altercation. A fact, I think some seem to forget.

What is that supposed to mean?

 

[Concerned Papa]

Wonder if anyone's gonna "enhance" this video?

A video released last week by the State Attorney prosecuting the case shows Zimmerman freely walked about the police station unescorted three days after the shooting.

http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/05/...-cops-ripped.html#storylink=cpy#storylink=cpy

Be nice to have a better look at those eyes....

 

[elementary]

I not sure if I can buy into a theory that GZ MUST have defensive injuries to his hands if Trayvon attacked him. Obviously defensive wounds would bolster his claims but does the absence of them mean that his documented injuries were not caused by an attack? I'm not sure that I can make that leap. JMO.

Actually, that's not a theory. It is the science of probability. It is highly likely that he would have some sort of bruising at the very least, and possibly some scratches if the two were, indeed, struggling as witnesses suggest. There may be an alternate explanation, but I'm not seeing one yet, especially since GZ claims to have been fighting for his life.

It is also reasonable to presume that in all probability, if there is an attack, there would be evidence of that attack on the attacker. There was no DNA from GZ under Trayvon's fingernails; the blood under Trayvon's nails was not GZ's. It's almost as if GZ was untouched.

 

[HiHater]

Responses in Red.

The injuries are inconsistent with the "stories" that have been told in the press. That cannot be remedied by simply saying "there are injuries."

So what does that tell ME? GZ is lying about the way the whole thing went down. His story should be corroborated by his own injuries, Trayvon's injuries, witnesses, and other physical evidence. Up to this point, it's not IMO.

 

[cityslick]

Wonder if anyone's gonna "enhance" this video?



Be nice to have a better look at those eyes....

I agree, he's almost too far away though to tell. Only thing I noticed was he had bandages on the back of his head.

 

[tlcya]

This is the part that is relevant to this case.

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes...ng=&URL=0700-0799/0776/Sections/0776.013.html

Exactly. The SYG law being applicable in this situation hinges upon who attacked who first and what exactly constitutes "attack"

MOO is that we have no way of knowing who attacked who and in what manner first. Did GZ lay hands on TM first? Did TM lay hands on the stranger (GZ) following/stalking him first? We simply don't know and only the court can determine that after hearing all the evidence.

All of this business we are engaged in is pure speculation.

 

[cityslick]

The injuries are inconsistent with the "stories" that have been told in the press. That cannot be remedied by simply saying "there are injuries."

So what does that tell ME? GZ is lying about the way the whole thing went down. His story should be corroborated by his own injuries, Trayvon's injuries, witnesses, and other physical evidence. Up to this point, it's not IMO.

How do you know GZ is lying when you haven't even heard the story GZ gave to police?

 

[tehcloser]

I saw bandages on his head...but honestly I wondered why they were there. We have all seen the pics.......I wondered if it was to hide the fact they were not that bad.

 

[TorisMom003]

Concerning the can and any dents that it might or might not have, if the can bottom was what hit Zimmerman in the nose then I would not expect to see any dents. The can was full of drink at the time making it stronger than an empty can would be. The bottom edge or ridge of a can is also going to be one of the strongest points on the can as the material is thicker there.

Zimmerman has injuries, yes. I have not seen anyone deny that since the photos came out clearly showing them. I certainly have not denied them myself. How Zimmerman got those injuries most definately can be debated at this point. When you take Zimmerman's injuries compared to Trayvon's injuries there is a clear lack of what should appear on Trayvon if Zimmerman's claim of being beaten was true. True that Zimmerman's injuries do not prove nor disprove his claim, however, there are other options and possibilities as to how those injuries could have occured.

I, not being one of the lucky ones that received this well timed leak of a Dr report, do not have proof as to if the entire report was leaked or not. However, I find it very difficult to believe that any news station would reveal only bits and pieces of a report if they were given the full report. It is my opinion that it was not completely released and that there is a reason for not releasing the full report. I always state in my posts that it is MOO if I am stating something that is my opinion.

MOO

 

[HiHater]

How do you know GZ is lying when you haven't even heard the story GZ gave to police?

I believe I referenced the "stories" we have heard in the media. That is what I based my opinion on, and it's the only thing you have to base your opinions on as well.

 

[LynnM]

Wonder if anyone's gonna "enhance" this video?



Be nice to have a better look at those eyes....

That's an interesting video and an even more interesting story. Clearly Zimmerman had no confidence that the 'lazy' Sanford police were going to do their job in apprehending criminals.

 

[cityslick]

I believe I referenced the "stories" we have heard in the media. That is what I based my opinion on, and it's the only thing you have to base your opinions on as well.

My opinion is there was a fight. I don't know who started it. My opinion is based of the evidence, not what the stories are.