IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #25

[GrainneDhu]

http://www.kcrg.com/news/local/Lake-Being-Drained-in-Missing-Girls-Case-162634286.html

The spring-fed lake is a former borrow pit that was dug to get rock during the construction of Interstate 380.

 

[otto]

Me neither, but would take them with a grain of salt.

I'm curious about the reason. If I made a general inquiry asking the Evansdale police about the timeline of the murdered children, and I was only given the time of the video surveillance (not including the well known 8 minutes error factor) and the official time that the bikes were found, would that be a good reason to ignore all the other information that has been released and, if so, why?

Suppose that a relative of mine was known to be at the same time and place as the time/place of critical evidence. What are the chances that police are going to provide me with more information than is already available in the media? Should I, as a result, ignore all other information?

 

[Ms Pragmatic]

Does anyone recall or have any thoughts as to why LE, in the early stages, were asking for the man with the white van to come forward? I remember he DID come forward and was thought to have no involvement. But what was suspicious about the white van at the time? Is it possible that we didn't see the whole clip of the girls on their bikes? Perhaps it was snipped, only showing the girls as they rode by the camera, and not a white van tailing them?

 

[iamnotagolem]

Jumping off my post to expand further... Gma was worried enough to get in her car and go look for them at 12:30. At that point, she wasn't thinking "oh, just wait until those two girls get back here. I'm going to let them have it for not coming when they are called". No, she got into her car and went to look. That tells me in Gma's experience, this was not a common occurrence. CCTV has them close to home at 12:11, or 12:19 if you account for the time stamp inaccuracies. Gma was out looking for them within 10-15 minutes of them being captured on that video. Were they abducted already? Or were they just arriving at the lake when Gma got in her car? I just can't make myself believe that these girls broke the rules that late in the game on their own. What sent them there? Or were they taken within moments of being caught on that camera? Frustrating!

So in the earliest reports Grandma gave the time she last saw them as 11:30 and last night I finally figured out she said that because that is when they left. That is the time she last SPOKE to them. I imagine Wylma keeping an eye out the window seeing the girls ride by every few minutes while she's getting her stuff ready to go, getting the kids lunches made and dishes tidied up.

If the girls were just riding through the parking lots and circling around I'd imagine they'd been by the house every five minutes or so, when she noticed she hadn't seen them in 15-20 minutes she probably started getting concerned.

I wonder if there was one of those digital clocks in the parking lots by the post office that they would use to keep track of how much time they had left?

I still don't think the girls rode their bikes down to the lake. Grandma was alerted to them not riding by within 15 minutes. These girls were reliable, they weren't known to ride off for long periods of time.

IF and a big IF they rode to the lake, I can only see them doing it if a close, trusted family member stopped them in the parking lot and told them to.

I still think the most likely scenario is them being abducted at 12:12 on Brovan. Killer loads girls and bikes into vehicle and drives to the lake, arrives at 12:18 and dumps bikes/purse is gone by 12:25. Drives to seven bridges, kills the girls and is back to town by 2:00.

 

[iamnotagolem]

Does anyone recall or have any thoughts as to why LE, in the early stages, were asking for the man with the white van to come forward? I remember he DID come forward and was thought to have no involvement. But what was suspicious about the white van at the time? Is it possible that we didn't see the whole clip of the girls on their bikes? Perhaps it was snipped, only showing the girls as they rode by the camera, and not a white CNN tailing them?

Not sure why he was suspicious, but he was there at 2:00pm.

Breault said the man in the photo went into the Casey's store at 1038 River Forest Road in Evansdale at about 2 p.m. July 13. That's about two hours after the girls were seen leaving a relative's house, and about two hours before firefighters found their bicycles near a bike trial on the southeast edge of Meyers Lake.

http://www.desmoinesregister.com/ar...case-Van-driver-speaks-authorities-TV-station

 

[Ms Pragmatic]

I'm curious about the reason. If I made a general inquiry asking the Evansdale police about the timeline of the murdered children, and I was only given the time of the video surveillance (not including the well known 8 minutes error factor) and the official time that the bikes were found, would that be a good reason to ignore all the other information that has been released and, if so, why?

Suppose that a relative of mine was known to be at the same time and place as the time/place of critical evidence. What are the chances that police are going to provide me with more information than is already available in the media? Should I, as a result, ignore all other information?

Otto, I know I am choosing to keep the timeline simple because when I add the other bits of info in, it gets confusing for me. That certainly doesn't mean I feel all of those bits of information are wrong, it just means I don't know which sightings LE has confirmed and which sightings LE was asking for help in confirming. Or if maybe LE was throwing out red herrings. When things get too cloudy, I wipe the slate clean and start over. That is basically where I am at now. Asking myself what I've missed. Trying to determine what, if anything, of significance LE knows for sure.

 

[otto]

How about this for a sneaky police tactic: give a statement to the media that the manner of death will not be released because it is a fact that only the perp knows, so if anyone knows the manner of death, that person must be the perp.

 

[Dr. Know?]

Does anyone recall or have any thoughts as to why LE, in the early stages, were asking for the man with the white van to come forward? I remember he DID come forward and was thought to have no involvement. But what was suspicious about the white van at the time? Is it possible that we didn't see the whole clip of the girls on their bikes? Perhaps it was snipped, only showing the girls as they rode by the camera, and not a white van tailing them?

I remember prior to LE speaking to the white van dude there had been an attempted abduction of a little boy by a couple in a white van. His father witnessed it. It was in Cedar Valley or another town. Plus there were multiple reports of other white vans coming from everywhere. That's why I thought they zeroed in on the dude as he was in the area where the girls went missing at the right time with a white van. jmo

 

[Ms Pragmatic]

If those girls and their bikes were transported from close to home, it wasn't done in a small vehicle. It could not have been done in a car, IMO. I have a large car and a GMC Acadia, which is a fairly large SUV. The bikes plus two girls would not fit into my car period. I could easily get the girls in my Acadia. And the bikes would definitely fit into the back of my Acadia, but could this all be accomplished quickly if the two girls didn't want to go with me? Absolutely not. IMO, if this occurred close to home, the vehicle had to be large enough to just throw the bikes in the back after the girls were secured in side. Even with the amount of space in the back of my SUV, I wouldn't be able to just throw the bikes in the back. It would take some maneuvering, especially considering that Lyric had an adult bike.

If the girls did not know this person, they most likely would have given one heck of a fight and this would've been very time consuming to snatch the girls and get their bikes in the back. All without being seen. Unless there were two perps. If I am the perp, am I willing to take the time necessary to abduct two girls in broad daylight against their will AND transport their bikes too? Wouldn't I just take the girls and let their bikes drop where they drop?

 

[JaimeInLA]

So in the earliest reports Grandma gave the time she last saw them as 11:30 and last night I finally figured out she said that because that is when they left. That is the time she last SPOKE to them. I imagine Wylma keeping an eye out the window seeing the girls ride by every few minutes while she's getting her stuff ready to go, getting the kids lunches made and dishes tidied up.

If the girls were just riding through the parking lots and circling around I'd imagine they'd been by the house every five minutes or so, when she noticed she hadn't seen them in 15-20 minutes she probably started getting concerned.

I wonder if there was one of those digital clocks in the parking lots by the post office that they would use to keep track of how much time they had left?

I still don't think the girls rode their bikes down to the lake. Grandma was alerted to them not riding by within 15 minutes. These girls were reliable, they weren't known to ride off for long periods of time.

IF and a big IF they rode to the lake, I can only see them doing it if a close, trusted family member stopped them in the parking lot and told them to.

I still think the most likely scenario is them being abducted at 12:12 on Brovan. Killer loads girls and bikes into vehicle and drives to the lake, arrives at 12:18 and dumps bikes/purse is gone by 12:25. Drives to seven bridges, kills the girls and is back to town by 2:00.

Bingo! And I'll go one step further and add "back in town by 2:00," TO HELP SEARCH.

 

[SoBeCzar]

How about this for a sneaky police tactic: give a statement to the media that the manner of death will not be released because it is a fact that only the perp knows, so if anyone knows the manner of death, that person must be the perp.

Since there are limited ways of death I would think one could hit on a lucky guess but this makes me wonder if there was something a little unique to their deaths. Like, say strangled with a unique item or shot and stabbed in over kill. That would be a manner only known to the killer.
It is also possible it was strangulation that did not break the hyoid bone or suffocation so the medical examiner could not say for sure how they were killed and LE knows only the killer knows.

 

[Dr. Know?]

Here's the article about the white dude man & the attempted abduction. It was in Linn Co.

http://www.desmoinesregister.com/article/D2/20120801/NEWS/120801044/missing-iowa-girls-van-driver

 

[Ms Pragmatic]

Bingo! And I'll go one step further and add "back in town by 2:00," TO HELP SEARCH.

In your scenario, the perp(s) would be familiar to the girls?

 

[JaimeInLA]

If those girls and their bikes were transported from close to home, it wasn't done in a small vehicle. It could not have been done in a car, IMO. I have a large car and a GMC Acadia, which is a fairly large SUV. The bikes plus two girls would not fit into my car period. I could easily get the girls in my Acadia. And the bikes would definitely fit into the back of my Acadia, but could this all be accomplished quickly if the two girls didn't want to go with me? Absolutely not. IMO, if this occurred close to home, the vehicle had to be large enough to just throw the bikes in the back after the girls were secured in side. Even with the amount of space in the back of my SUV, I wouldn't be able to just throw the bikes in the back. It would take some maneuvering, especially considering that Lyric had an adult bike.

If the girls did not know this person, they most likely would have given one heck of a fight and this would've been very time consuming to snatch the girls and get their bikes in the back. All without being seen. Unless there were two perps. If I am the perp, am I willing to take the time necessary to abduct two girls in broad daylight against their will AND transport their bikes too? Wouldn't I just take the girls and let their bikes drop where they drop?

One thing I have learned from scouring Google Earth, looking at the addresses of all the players in this case, there are A TON of pickup trucks in that area. Here, I'd say 1 in every 30 cars is a pickup truck. There, it looks like close to 1 in 2!!!

 

[JaimeInLA]

in your scenario, the perp(s) would be familiar to the girls?

100%.

 

[georger]

Sorry if this has already been answered, but no, they would not have been on 380 in mere minutes, with the construction going on. The eastbound lane was closed, so the westbound lane was both east/west, and was gridlocked a lot of the time. Everyone around here went out of their way to avoid that area at certain times of the day. The only way they could have gotten away quickly via 380/20 would be to go west from River Forest Road. The eastbound onramp was closed, and it would not have been easy to get on the interstate from the next exit - Elk Run Road. The fastest way to get out of town toward 7 bridges would probably have been Lafayette or Dubuque Road.

Thanks - this helps clarify options.

 

[Ms Pragmatic]

I remember prior to LE speaking to the white van dude there had been an attempted abduction of a little boy by a couple in a white van. His father witnessed it. It was in Cedar Valley or another town. Plus there were multiple reports of other white vans coming from everywhere. That's why I thought they zeroed in on the dude as he was in the area where the girls went missing at the right time with a white van. jmo

I recall this incident too. And if LE thought the girls were taken close to home, a van would've been just the kind of vehicle they looked for. Plenty of room in the back to throw two bikes.

 

[Ms Pragmatic]

100%.

Would we go as far as to say that the perp was not only familiar to the girls, but one they were completely comfortable with? Like...they went willingly, never thinking for a minute they were in danger? An abduction close to home IMO would've had to go down that way or it would've been too risky to grab the bikes.

 

[kikid]

If those girls and their bikes were transported from close to home, it wasn't done in a small vehicle. It could not have been done in a car, IMO. I have a large car and a GMC Acadia, which is a fairly large SUV. The bikes plus two girls would not fit into my car period. I could easily get the girls in my Acadia. And the bikes would definitely fit into the back of my Acadia, but could this all be accomplished quickly if the two girls didn't want to go with me? Absolutely not. IMO, if this occurred close to home, the vehicle had to be large enough to just throw the bikes in the back after the girls were secured in side. Even with the amount of space in the back of my SUV, I wouldn't be able to just throw the bikes in the back. It would take some maneuvering, especially considering that Lyric had an adult bike.

If the girls did not know this person, they most likely would have given one heck of a fight and this would've been very time consuming to snatch the girls and get their bikes in the back. All without being seen. Unless there were two perps. If I am the perp, am I willing to take the time necessary to abduct two girls in broad daylight against their will AND transport their bikes too? Wouldn't I just take the girls and let their bikes drop where they drop?

Exactly right. This is why in my theory that I posted in an earlier thread theorizes that the girls were lured into a home, a garage or a building there in the neighborhood around the home. Lured in, quickly bound or otherwise secured and the bikes very very quickly taken to the lake. Then this person returned to the home/building for the girls and took them to another (third) location. jmo and all that.

 

[threecrazykids]

One thing I have learned from scouring Google Earth, looking at the addresses of all the players in this case, there are A TON of pickup trucks in that area. Here, I'd say 1 in every 30 cars is a pickup truck. There, it looks like close to 1 in 2!!!

Yepper...it's Iowa! :floorlaugh: VERY few people I know don't have 1 of their vehicles being a truck.