2009.03.12 Casey Anthony Motion Hearing

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http://www.wesh.com/download/2009/0121/18530363.pdf

I would draw your attention to pages 36 and 37. The CSI details what Lee discovered from the evidence or pointed out which is likely more accurate, and what the CSI found AFTER Lee left the scene of the car at 1740 hours. The CSI collected and processed quite a bit of trace after Lee was done. I will not detail it out here because it is listed out there...

This was what I had remembered. There were quite a few hairs found which makes sense.

On September 27, the trunk and car were vacuumed and the evidence was sent to the FBI. My mistake.
 
You can read about Lee's investigation in this doc beginning on page 3205.

He found a single hair in the trunk of the car. All other hairs (and fibers) were found on evidence that OCSO had already removed from the trunk and processed. During this investigation, Lee signed a crime scene contamination sheet.


Hello All! New here, I never post, only read. I read what you referenced and if I'm reading it correctly it looks like Dr. Lee found 3 hairs on the garbage and one in the trunk. There were 4 of them. Then an OCSO tech re-examined the car after Dr. Lee was done and located the other 13. So why would JB say that Lee found 17 additional hairs when you can clearly see that is NOT the case?
 
Hello All! New here, I never post, only read. I read what you referenced and if I'm reading it correctly it looks like Dr. Lee found 3 hairs on the garbage and one in the trunk. There were 4 of them. Then an OCSO tech re-examined the car after Dr. Lee was done and located the other 13. So why would JB say that Lee found 17 additional hairs when you can clearly see that is NOT the case?

:blowkiss: Welcome :blowkiss:
 
Hello All! New here, I never post, only read. I read what you referenced and if I'm reading it correctly it looks like Dr. Lee found 3 hairs on the garbage and one in the trunk. There were 4 of them. Then an OCSO tech re-examined the car after Dr. Lee was done and located the other 13. So why would JB say that Lee found 17 additional hairs when you can clearly see that is NOT the case?

Hi, and welcome from your former lurking status.

Some people are still misunderstanding what the doc dump states. I could be one of them.

The grand total number of hairs found on the day that Lee was there is 18, not 17. That error may come from the fact that 2 hairs were placed into a single evidence vial.

The doc states that "we" found 3 hairs and collected them from certain named things. That was at a time when numerous people were present, including Lee.

Lee found a hair inside the trunk, and it is the only hair that was collected from the trunk itself on that day.

After Lee leaves, 14 hairs are collected from certain named things.


Baez, Lee, OCSO, and the Prosecution may all know that it was actually Lee that found these 18 hairs. The hand-written bench notes may have said that Lee was finding these hairs as he was progressing through his examinations. The reports don't really reflect that, if it is true. Baez never got the chance to have the CSI tell the court if that is true or not.
 
Baez never got the chance to have the CSI tell the court if that is true or not.

Probably because that examination of the CSI was in the wrong place at the wrong time?

Baez certainly showed the SA where his defence is leaning for trial. Impeach all the forensic witnesses. They will be more than ready for that now. I feel sorry for the jury, having to listen through JB's ramblings and Baden's onslaughts. This Dream Team could well be a Nightmare Team if they don't change their ways. Do I care? Nope!
 
Sorry if I missed it but can anyone provide a link to a full replay of the hearing? I was unable to watch it live and can't find a video anywhere...
 
SNIPPED FOR SPACE

In spite of being stopped by objections, Baez was able to show:

1) The CSI is unfamiliar with his own reports. He thought the white bag question posed by Lee was in the report. It isn't.

2) The CSI remembers things about the meeting with Lee that aren't in the reports.

3) The bench notes contained more information than the resultant reports.

4) The bench notes are destroyed soon after the daily reports are created.



I think that many posters in the thread yesterday were so focused on Baez's amateur demeanor that the missed what he was able to show in his line of questioning and his statements (which were affirmed by the CSI).


Ok now I have to go back and relisten to the Bloise testimony and reread the reports filed that relate to it(Thanks Hotdogs :razz: )

Before I lose my afternoon to that I wanted to address the points you made above.

1)Each CSI has a caseload and living in Orlando I am sure they are kept very busy and while Caylee has been the be all to end all for many here I'm sure the same can't be said for everyone.To ask a CSI the specifics of a piece of evidence they worked on 8 months ago and expect a ready answer is wrong--It's like asking you what the 18th sentence on page 40 of your thesis is when you wrote it back in college.Very few humans have that power of recall.

To go with that JB kept asking him questions about work Vincent had done which went beyond what Bloise could testify to.And if Bloise had no contact with the bag,it's contents or logging any of it in or testing any of it then there's no way he could even hazard a guess.

2)Of course the CSI remembers things about Lee's visit.In the forensics arena Lee is a hot**** and to use JBs analogy it's like when a baseball fan meets A-Rod.But it doesn't mean it qualifies to make the report.Lee couldv'e asked for a glass of palmetto bug juice or Lee asked to see the bag it doesn't mean someones following along behind them writing down exactly what was said.
Anything that pertains to the evidence on hand and Lees involvement with the evidence has to go in the report--Lee didn't see,taste,touch or smell the bag so no mention of it---Lee did see,touch and smell the garbage from the bag and the trunk so it gets reported on.

3)I need to go back and see what the bench notes are(I honestly don't remember them being mentioned) but I do know that my own personal notes on crime scenes has "to do" stuff in them like..."How long is blood live?","How many rpms for box fan?" stuff like that, so while yes it is in my personal notes,no they won't go into an official report.

4)Again need to go back to clarify bench notes but it is SOP and the SA could bring in a CSI from Timbuktu and ask what his procedures are for his notes once a report is generated to confirm
 
...
I think that many posters in the thread yesterday were so focused on Baez's amateur demeanor that the missed what he was able to show in his line of questioning and his statements (which were affirmed by the CSI).

Respectfully snipped

Thanks Hot Dogs for that useful and interesting perspective. Your observations point out how important it is to be a competant attorney. If all the posters here were only focused on his demeanor and not the line of questioning, don't you think a jury will do the same thing?
 
I'm no longer confident that what I said yesterday (above) is actually true. After watching the video of the hearings, I now have questions about the accuracy of the reports in the doc dump. The doc does tell you what I wrote above. The unresolved question is "Did OCSO write the report in a way that makes it seem like they found the additional hairs (except for one), instead of Dr. Lee?"

It this is true, then Baez is really dumb for bringing this up now during a sanctions hearing. This would have been great "bombshell" impeachment testimony during the trial, but now he is giving the state and LE months to come up with an excuse.
 
My guess is that she's medicated for anxiety. I saw a person who was zoning in and out...trying to follow what was going on but having trouble staying focused. She's very different from her jail tapes with her parents...much more subdued. If you've ever been around someone on an anti-anxiety med, they act very much like she did today...able to focus during actual conversations (smiling with her lawyers when she first came in) but "drifting" when not engaged. JMO.

I have a cluster of anxiety disorders, and I take xanax(legally prescribed). For me, it makes me much more focused....it really just makes me feel 'normal' again.
Unless she took took a higher dose than what was required, or it wasnt required at all. But then she wouldnt be fiddling with the pen, adjusting her cardi every 5 secs etc....she would be totally chilled.

She was way too fidgety for someone on AA meds IMO.
JMO
 
I didn't watch the court hearings yesterday. I just followed along in this thread reading the play-by-play comments. But now I have watched the video of the hearing. It's the first time that I have watched any of the hearings. Baez does appear to be inexperienced in this and is often inarticulate. In spite of this, his questions to the CSI end up being understood and answered. Anyway, I came away from watching that with a different perpective than I got from reading the posts in this thread.

Baez's line of questioning with the CSI has a basic theme. Through the questioning, he was able to show that CSI does not transfer everything from their handwritten notes taken at the time of observation (bench notes) to their final report. After the daily reports are entered into a computer, the bench notes are destroyed.

During questioning, Baez was focused on the "white trash bag". He got CSI to say that Lee did ask to see it and was immediately told that the bag was at a lab in Tennessee. Baez was with Lee, the CSI, and other OCSO folks at their facility during the inspections done by Lee. Baez asks the CSI if he made notations about Lee asking for the bag. He says yes. Then Baez asks him to find that notation in the report. The CSI glances down for a brief period and says that it isn't in the report. We also know it isn't in the report because we have the report from a doc dump. Baez has the same docs that we do. He knows that Lee asked for that bag and was told it was out of state. He knows (and CSI affirmed) that this was hand-noted at the time. He knows that that bit of information is not in the report from the doc dump. Here comes the punchline.... Baez, CSI, the prosecution, the court, and now we... all know that the bench notes contained more information than ends up in the report (doc dump). Baez was banging away at this because the bench notes are quickly destroyed.

We had no clue that Lee asked for that bag because it didn't show up in the doc dump reports. But CSI and Baez remember it clearly. Also Baez begins to broach the subject of Lee finding an additional 17 hairs during his visit. This never gets anywhere because the State instantly objects based on it being outside the scope of Baez's motion. He tried it twice and was stopped each time. I think I may be able to guess at where Baez was going to go if he had not been stopped. It may be that Lee actually did find those 17 hairs (or many of them) and the report doesn't state that. The report has us thinking that these were strictly found by OCSO after Lee left. What may have happened is that Lee saw them and pointed them out to OCSO, and then OCSO began collecting them about 1.5 hours after Lee left. The notation that Lee found them may have been in the bench notes, but did not make it to the report. The bench notes are shredded.

In spite of being stopped by objections, Baez was able to show:

1) The CSI is unfamiliar with his own reports. He thought the white bag question posed by Lee was in the report. It isn't.

2) The CSI remembers things about the meeting with Lee that aren't in the reports.

3) The bench notes contained more information than the resultant reports.

4) The bench notes are destroyed soon after the daily reports are created.


I think that many posters in the thread yesterday were so focused on Baez's amateur demeanor that the missed what he was able to show in his line of questioning and his statements (which were affirmed by the CSI).

I watched the hearing live and with a trained ear did not pick up as much as you did! The problem with JB's manner of questioning, which I found to be poor and distracting, is if this questioning was before a jury, what would the jury have gathered from the questioning? I don't think much. Between the valid objections, the court's comments, the constant interruption of the witness, the answers were lost as was the point or points he was trying to make. All I gathered from it was that the defense is contending that Dr. Lee found 17 hairs that the defense is claiming should have been found by CSI. That wasn't the subject of the motion. It was a sanctions motion. Whether or not this is true or whose hair it was (could have been Dr. Lee's for all we know) wasn't germane to the motion at hand. My guess is at trial this event, if it's accurate and relevant, will be dealt with by the prosecutors in their case in chief--thereby taking the air out of JB's cross-examination on the issue. If this hearing were before a jury, I still don't think he presented it in a manner which would have had much impact.
 
Yep, Strickland cut off all his prepared avenues of wandering.

JAYSUS! That was a HOT MESS yesterday, was it not?

Why didn't someone simply point out that the garbage was not IN THE TRUNK for Dr. Lee to view because GEORGE and the tow yard guy took it out and threw it in the trash there? The trash bag (and trash inside bag) had to be recovered from Johnson's and we go from there. Cripes! Criminalists don't put crap BACK IN THE TRUNK so that Lee can see it in the state it was in. Give me a break.

And the "where's the trash bag" drama was ridiculous. They were trying to make it appear like the crime scene tech was hiding something from Dr. Lee. Give me a break!

That was such a joke. I was cringing when JB was trying to make out like they weren't aware of the bags location, and Bloise said he had told JB and LEE it was in TN. Jose didnt deny it, just kept saying it wasnt in the report. He cant claim they didnt know just because its not in the damn report.
JMO
 
Probably because that examination of the CSI was in the wrong place at the wrong time?

Baez certainly showed the SA where his defence is leaning for trial. Impeach all the forensic witnesses. They will be more than ready for that now. I feel sorry for the jury, having to listen through JB's ramblings and Baden's onslaughts. This Dream Team could well be a Nightmare Team if they don't change their ways. Do I care? Nope!

I don't think that he was able to "impeach" this expert witness in the least. This witness did not ever see the garbage bag. The garbage bag was not there when the inspection was done. AND I wonder if the witness had been allowed to continue if we would not, in fact, have discovered that it was his supervisor who actually told Dr. Lee and party that the bag was not there. SO although he includes himself in the "we" told him it was not there...HE may not have been the actual one who did the telling...therefore there was no reason for that to be in his report.
 
I'm no longer confident that what I said yesterday (above) is actually true. After watching the video of the hearings, I now have questions about the accuracy of the reports in the doc dump. The doc does tell you what I wrote above. The unresolved question is "Did OCSO write the report in a way that makes it seem like they found the additional hairs (except for one), instead of Dr. Lee?"

Absolutely!!! (hehe) It should have been written in a way that reflected that Lee found the hairs, and they collected them.
But it reads as though they found them when lee was present.
I've had issues with the accuracy of the reports for a looooong time, but get shot down if I dare to mention my concerns. 'They're human- everybody makes mistakes'.
Some are simple mistakes, others seem to be deliberatley misleading.
JMO
 
I don't think that he was able to "impeach" this expert witness in the least. This witness did not ever see the garbage bag. The garbage bag was not there when the inspection was done. AND I wonder if the witness had been allowed to continue if we would not, in fact, have discovered that it was his supervisor who actually told Dr. Lee and party that the bag was not there. SO although he includes himself in the "we" told him it was not there...HE may not have been the actual one who did the telling...therefore there was no reason for that to be in his report.

ITA with your conclusions, m-c, and I really should have typed "attempt to impeach", because he certainly did not succeed this first time around.
 
I watched the hearing live and with a trained ear did not pick up as much as you did! The problem with JB's manner of questioning, which I found to be poor and distracting, is if this questioning was before a jury, what would the jury have gathered from the questioning? I don't think much. Between the valid objections, the court's comments, the constant interruption of the witness, the answers were lost as was the point or points he was trying to make. All I gathered from it was that the defense is contending that Dr. Lee found 17 hairs that the defense is claiming should have been found by CSI. That wasn't the subject of the motion. It was a sanctions motion. Whether or not this is true or whose hair it was (could have been Dr. Lee's for all we know) wasn't germane to the motion at hand. My guess is at trial this event, if it's accurate and relevant, will be dealt with by the prosecutors in their case in chief--thereby taking the air out of JB's cross-examination on the issue. If this hearing were before a jury, I still don't think he presented it in a manner which would have had much impact.
I couldn't agree more. I didn't know if it was because he himself was totally lost or he was trying to follow somebody else's script (like LKB).
 
Absolutely!!! (hehe) It should have been written in a way that reflected that Lee found the hairs, and they collected them.
But it reads as though they found them when lee was present.
I've had issues with the accuracy of the reports for a looooong time, but get shot down if I dare to mention my concerns. 'They're human- everybody makes mistakes'.
Some are simple mistakes, others seem to be deliberatley misleading.
JMO
Ya know, I never got the impression that it was "a lot" of anything that he found...what I heard made it seem as if he pointed out "something"...and I believe it was in the trunk. So the hairs, were they found in the trunk or in the car?
 
I'm not sure that Baez was specifically trying to impeach the CSI. It's more like he was getting facts from the CSI that might be used to show a systemic issue with OCSO. The closest he came to impeaching the CSI was when he looked down at the report expecting to see the bit about Lee asking to see the white bag.

The point is that the defense may be able to show that OCSO reports do not match the bench notes. That there are omissions or possibly twists (we found those 14 hairs, not Lee) when the reports are made. The defense may try to suggest that almost any kind of potentially exonerating info or evidence might be intentionally left out of reports. Or that the intent was to make OCSO look more competent (we don't need Lee to help us find every collectable hair).

That theme of omissions could be carried to other areas of OCSO investigation. We know that OCSO computer forensics found instances of searching for "chloroform", "shovel", "breaking neck", etc. But did OCSO omit from their report searches for things like "Proud Mom" T-shirts or "teaching your child to read", etc? You could say no way would this daughter-killer be looking for that kind of stuff. But if omissions were being made in the preparation of reports, you'll never know about them.
 
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