2010.07.31 - Why are they searching DDS' relatives' properties?

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Thanks for posting this. There has been speculation that DD had an active part in Kyron's disappearance or the disposal of his body. But my feeling has been that LE was putting the screws to DD because they haven't been able to figure out critical details about TH's movements on the 4th. LE, I suspect, is reasonably certain the elements of TH's account is a crock of .... And are desperately hoping that TH said something to DD in the ten days she stayed with her that willl provide the key to cracking TH's timeline.

I totally agree..........I am starting to think that dede doesnt have anything to do with the actual crime itself but just may have info as a confidante/someone Terri came to for help with how to handle the situation whatever it may be...

If this is the case why would a woman help cover up a murder of a child......there really has to be something more.....
 
I'm not convinced that Dede has any info on what happened to Kyron that day. I think she may have helped out a friend and inadvertently found herself in the middle of all of this.

Possible scenarios,

TH spoke with or saw Dede that day during that 90mins of time that is speculative.

She did meet Th at the gym perhaps not for work out but to drop of clothes (TH could have showered there and needed a change of clothes brought to her)

May have met up with TH to talk as she was in the area.

something that a friend may do when called upon but may not seem so out of the ordinary. As for going to LE well she wouldn't have known Kyron was missing until late that evening and would not think she had anything of value to say other than i saw my friend that day well i'm sure lots of people saw Th that day.(grocery store,school, gym). She did not see Kyron and had no knowledge of what had happened to him.

After that time she was in contact with TH being a supportive friend nothing else. Only thing that bothers me with this whole scenario is why Th did not use DS as her alibi during that time. hmmmm
 
After that time she was in contact with TH being a supportive friend nothing else. Only thing that bothers me with this whole scenario is why Th did not use DS as her alibi during that time. hmmmm

And then there is the small issue of the Twitter page, with only 1 mention of Kyron. I am sorry but that is what did it for me.
 
After that time she was in contact with TH being a supportive friend nothing else. Only thing that bothers me with this whole scenario is why Th did not use DS as her alibi during that time. hmmmm

And then there is the small issue of the Twitter page, with only 1 mention of Kyron. I am sorry but that is what did it for me.
 
Thanks for posting this. There has been speculation that DD had an active part in Kyron's disappearance or the disposal of his body. But my feeling has been that LE was putting the screws to DD because they haven't been able to figure out critical details about TH's movements on the 4th. LE, I suspect, is reasonably certain the elements of TH's account is a crock of .... And are desperately hoping that TH said something to DD in the ten days she stayed with her that willl provide the key to cracking TH's timeline.

You may be absolutely right or do they just want to catch anyone involved? I don't have an opinion of DeDe at this time.
 
It just seems to me that whatever gives Kaine probable cause to believe that Terri did something might be significantly different than what gives LE or the court systems probable cause to arrest or convict her. Kaine is free to use evidence that is not allowable in court to form his beliefs.

The way I read the following paragraph, "police had provided him with "probable cause." This wasn't something that Kaine made up........it was provided to him by the police. Therefore, the information the police provided to Kaine wasn't just speculation, but some concrete evidence. This is likely the information they cannot discuss and when asked certain questions, they (KH and DY) always answer stating that they can't discuss that as it's part of the investigation.

"In court documents, the boy's father Kaine Horman stated police had provided him with "probable cause" to believe that Terri was involved in Kyron's disappearance, plotted to have Kaine killed, and was having a sexual affair."
 
Perhaps it might have been left out in the first telling but according to Kaine and/or Desiree she had been vocal about the cell pings showing she was somewhere she wasn't. IMO if the police indicated to her that there was a problem with her cell pings she would have been prompted to remember and I think she would have been able to explain the discrepancy pretty easily. "Yeah that's right, I forgot, I went to pick up a friend on my way to the gym and that must be why my phone pinged there." Recognition is always easier than straight recall and although you originally might not remember that you went to Farawayplace when asked, "please tell me what you did on Monday", once you've been told that the evidence shows that you went to Farawayplace it is easier for you to recall what you did there. IMO.

Anyway, if she was so vocal about these problems with the cell pings I'm pretty sure DS would have heard about it and been able to remind her "that was the day you picked me up, why didn't you tell them so?", and if it was something unusual for TH to pick DS up and go to the gym together there might have been a text message or an email or something in which they arranged it.

That very well may have happened. All we have heard is from DY and KH regarding what TH told them LE told her. It's like a game of telephone - we have no idea how accurate it is.

If she originally forgot a trip to where DS was working (or some other detail) and LE accused her of lying and then she remembered, "Oh yeah, I forgot about driving over to XYZ before I went to the gym" then LE might have accused her of changing her story.

DY's words were something along the lines of "I can tell you what I had for breakfast but she can't remember where she was." So we don't know if being accused of lying jogged Terri's memory. All we know (sort of) is that the first story didn't match up with the pings and she was accused of changing her story.

As for the pings, I wouldn't pin a murder case on that. A month ago I was in a hotel room with my DH near the state line, both of our identical smartphones on the same nightstand, with the same provider and everything, and his phone was on Pacific time while mine was still on Mountain. That has everything to do with which tower you are pinging off of, so I no longer think of it as the exact science that some LE would like us to believe it is.
 
After that time she was in contact with TH being a supportive friend nothing else. Only thing that bothers me with this whole scenario is why Th did not use DS as her alibi during that time. hmmmm

And then there is the small issue of the Twitter page, with only 1 mention of Kyron. I am sorry but that is what did it for me.


That was soooo strange.............one message saying her friend's child was missing, and then on to many messages about cooking. It was like a fleeting thought and then on to things that were important to her.
 
That was soooo strange.............one message saying her friend's child was missing, and then on to many messages about cooking. It was like a fleeting thought and then on to things that were important to her.

Especially since she was living with Terri for ten days. Not like "out of sight, out of mind."
 
That very well may have happened. All we have heard is from DY and KH regarding what TH told them LE told her. It's like a game of telephone - we have no idea how accurate it is.

If she originally forgot a trip to where DS was working (or some other detail) and LE accused her of lying and then she remembered, "Oh yeah, I forgot about driving over to XYZ before I went to the gym" then LE might have accused her of changing her story.

DY's words were something along the lines of "I can tell you what I had for breakfast but she can't remember where she was." So we don't know if being accused of lying jogged Terri's memory. All we know (sort of) is that the first story didn't match up with the pings and she was accused of changing her story.

As for the pings, I wouldn't pin a murder case on that. A month ago I was in a hotel room with my DH near the state line, both of our identical smartphones on the same nightstand, with the same provider and everything, and his phone was on Pacific time while mine was still on Mountain. That has everything to do with which tower you are pinging off of, so I no longer think of it as the exact science that some LE would like us to believe it is.

But say LE asked you and your H for an alibi for a crime that was committed 200 miles away. Although you were each pinging off a different tower, you were both not pinging (I'm guessing) on towers 200 miles away from the hotel. And you'd be pinging off the same tower (or flipping between two) all night as you slept, rather than pinging progressively farther down the highway as you would if you were driving.

I don't know, I just assume that even if your pings don't match your exact location, they can show movement versus sitting still for extended periods and a reasonably good guess at where you were not.
 
And then there is the small issue of the Twitter page, with only 1 mention of Kyron. I am sorry but that is what did it for me.

I don't know anything about Twitter. Can people delete what they have tweeted? I'm wondering if she deleted other tweets about Kyron, and just left that one there for some reason.
 
http://www.kpic.com/news/local/99840089.html

According to sources, two detectives and a canine search dog scoured the property of DeDe Spicher’s aunt along Northwest Bishop Road in Helvetia within the last two weeks.
Neighbors said DeDe no longer lives there and hasn’t visited in a while. But they said detectives still wanted to know what they saw, if anything, on June 4.
 
http://www.kpic.com/news/local/99840089.html

According to sources, two detectives and a canine search dog scoured the property of DeDe Spicher’s aunt along Northwest Bishop Road in Helvetia within the last two weeks.
Neighbors said DeDe no longer lives there and hasn’t visited in a while. But they said detectives still wanted to know what they saw, if anything, on June 4.

I Google-mapped it in a thread downstairs. It is 5.8 miles from Skyline.
 
I don't know anything about Twitter. Can people delete what they have tweeted? I'm wondering if she deleted other tweets about Kyron, and just left that one there for some reason.

I thought you couldn't delete your tweets, but that one with the link to youtube that said boy + water + dirt = heaven sure doesn't seem to be there any longer.

Uhm...If I'm not allowed to say that, mods please kindly remove.
 
! Interesting article !

And forgive me, but this is going to be a very long post. I have wondered, as have other people here, about what law enforcement could have that was determined to be "probable cause" in the justification of search warrants. So I have been knee deep in probable cause, search and seizure, and the fourth amendment alllllll day. So here is what I've found.

http://www.probablecause.org/whatisprobablecause.html

"Probable cause must be based on factual evidence and not just on suspicion."

and

"While there are some sources of probable cause that need to be supplemented by other sources, some sources are sufficient enough to stand on their own."

http://www.publications.ojd.state.or.us/A135857.htm

State of Oregon Court of Appeals says "Probable cause exists if facts are shown that would "permit a neutral and detached magistrate to determine that seizable evidence probably would be found at the place to be searched[.]" State v. Castilleja, 345 Or 255, 269, 192 P3d 1283, adh'd to on recons, 345 Or 471, 198 P3d 937 (2008). "Probably" means "more likely than not." State v. Chambless, 111 Or App 76, 80, 824 P2d 1183, rev den, 313 Or 210 (1992)."


I had assumed that in order to search the property of a third party in a criminal investigation, the threshold of "probable cause" to issue a search warrant would be higher than it would to search the property of a "suspect." My assumption was not correct.

Zurcher vs Stanford Daily United States Supreme Court opinion:
http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/historics/USSC_CR_0436_0547_ZO.html

"The issue here is how the Fourth Amendment is to be construed and applied to the 'third party' search, the recurring situation where state authorities have probable cause to believe that fruits, instrumentalities, or other evidence of crime is located on identified property, but do not then have probable cause to believe that the owner or possessor of the property is himself implicated in the crime that has occurred or is occurring."

The Supreme Court states "in criminal investigations, a warrant to search for recoverable items is reasonable "only when there is ‘probable cause' to believe that they will be uncovered in a particular dwelling." Search warrants are not directed at persons; they authorize the search of "place" and the seizure of "things," and, as a constitutional matter, they need not even name the person from whom the things will be seized. United States v. Kahn, 415 U.S. 143, 155 n. 15 (1974)."

The conclusion is this: Any property that is searched, whether it belongs to a "suspect" or someone unknown to a suspect, each search warrant is based on the probable cause that there are specific items of evidence at the property.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/anncon/html/amdt4frag2_user.html

"Particularity.—“The requirement that warrants shall particularily describe the things to be seized makes general searches under them impossible and prevents the seizure of one thing under a warrant describing another. As to what is to be taken, nothing is left to the discretion of the officer executing the warrant.”111 This requirement thus acts to limit the scope of the search, inasmuch as the executing officers should be limited to[p.1221]looking in places where the described object could be expected to be found.112 "

Also http://articles.directorym.com/Searches_and_Seizures_FAQ_Oregon-r935227-Oregon.html says:

"A judge will issue a search warrant after the police have convinced her that:

* it is more likely than not that a crime has taken place, and
* items connected to the crime are likely be found in a specified location on the property.

To convince the judge of these facts, the police tell the judge what they know about the situation. Usually, the information given to the judge is based either on the officers' own observations or on the second-hand observations of an informant.The police are limited in their ability to use secondhand information. As a general rule, the information must be reliable given the circumstances. Generally, reliable information is corroborated by police observation. "

and:

"But corroboration is not necessary in every case. Sometimes a judge will issue a warrant if the source of the information is known to the police and has provided trustworthy information in the past."

http://74.6.239.67/search/cache?ei=...M&icp=1&.intl=us&sig=wyxytXR2F7Y3ZZZt.fE2qA--

http://74.6.239.67/search/cache?ei=UTF-8&p=Oregon+"probable+cause+continuum"&fr=yfp-t-701-s&u=www.law.uoregon.edu/org/street/docs/StreetLaw.ppt&w=oregon+"probable+cause+continuum"&d=I29mKLZfVGxp&icp=1&.intl=us&sig=uJ.sfY_mDSGwCgOqZj87kw-

Probable Cause Continuum as related to Search Warrants:

No information

Hunch= Unable to point to specific facts, the officer has a "gut feeling," similar to intuition.

Suspicion= Officer knows a minor fact that suggests evidence may be found, or officer knows a larger fact originating from an unknown or unreliable source that evidence may be found somewhere.

Reasonable Grounds/Belief/Suspicion= Officer knows several minor facts or a larger fact, or officer knows large fact from source of unknown reliability pointing to a particular person.

Probable Cause= Officer has enough evidence to lead a "reasonable" person to assume evidence will be found at a particular place, and the evidence will be connected to criminal activity. This basis is the minimum required to obtain search warrants.

Preponderance of Evidence= "More likely than not." This is the amount of evidence needed to win a civil case.

Beyond Reasonable Doubt= Highest amount of proof. This is required for a person to be convicted.

Noteworthy: The Reasonable grounds/suspicion/belief is the threshold to search the person/workplace/residence/vehicle of those under probation or parole supervision in the expectation that any violation would be found. http://www.co.clackamas.or.us/corrections/info.htm This is difference than search and seizure laws pertaining to private citizens.


http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data/constitution/amendment04/02.html
A search warrant cannot be used to find evidence that would be used to justify the search warrant itself. You cannot put the cart before the horse, so to speak. This is why each search warrant has to specify the items to be seized in particular, and where to search for the particular items. And this is signed by a neutral magistrate or judicial official who has taken into consideration the sworn affidavit or affirmation who also concludes it is reasonable to believe there is "probable cause." This is sort of a two pronged test within itself in issuing search warrants.

I'm very sorry for the wall of China post, my whole point is that in order to execute search warrants on any property, there has to be more than a hunch. Property where Terri Horman lives can't be searched simply because they have "probable cause" to believe she is guilty. There has to be "probable cause" to believe that certain items of evidence specified in the search warrant will be found at the particular location. The probable cause to believe Terri Horman is guilty does not translate into searches of her friend's properties, either.... And it certainly doesn't translate into searches of properties of her friend's relatives.

But if Dede's relatives gave consent, then it can be searched without a warrant.

The article, http://www.kgw.com/news/Reward-missing-Portland--Kyron-Horman-up-to-50000-99349594.html , says "investigators have conducted several searches related to Speicher, including property belonging to relatives of her." Now I know many of us have had problems with these local news articles and their wording. But the way that sounds to me, is that they are quite concerned about any information she may have.... concerned enough to want to search properties she has access to.

But consent to a search can be withdrawn at any time, and anytime a search is conducted under one of the exceptions to the fourth amendment, legal problems can arise if the exception is later contested. Its always best to obtain a search warrant. And in my opinion, its more than a rule of thumb in high profile cases.

http://www.policemag.com/Channel/Pa...ll-When-You-Need-a-Search-Warrant/Page/2.aspx

"For any search, whether of a house, a car, or a container, if you have probable cause and time to get a warrant, it's a good idea to seek one. Even though one of the exceptions might apply, you will generally reduce the risks of both suppression of evidence and civil liability if your entry and search are judicially authorized. And if there is no identifiable exception, there is no lawful way to conduct a search except with a warrant—which brings us back to the rule-of-thumb: try to get a warrant whenever possible."


When I first heard about the "warrants" I was questioning the probable cause. Until I saw that the FBI was involved in the searches. The FBI has more authorities for warrantless searches and/or easier access to warrants.

The FBI does not need warrants for cell phone tower records.

**But the FBI and other law-enforcement outfits have been obtaining more and more records of cell-phone locations—without notifying the targets or getting judicial warrants establishing "probable cause," according to law-enforcement officials, court records, and telecommunication executives. (The Justice Department draws a distinction between cell-tower data and GPS information, according to a spokeswoman, and will often get warrants for the latter.)**

http://www.newsweek.com/2010/02/18/the-snitch-in-your-pocket.html

IMO, an FBI warrant for a search would not be hard to obtain once the FBI has that information.
 

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