2011.07.08 - Dateline NBC

[NSS]

I TOTALLY Agree! While watching I was intrigued by the science...but because I live in the area, I KNEW the SA was leaving out so much that would really drive it all home to just how warped and twisted family dynamic of KC, CA and GA really was...I wouldn't call it reality tv world DRAMA but it would have solidified the MOTIVE. After the state rested I felt very uneasy...I thought to myself THAT'S all you have, this is not good. Not one person testified to the love/hate relationship between KC and CA. Everyone testified that KC was a good mom. IMO, leaving out the true nature of the family dynamic was a HUGE mistake on the SA part and I still don't understand why they didn't pursue that more.

The problem with that would have been that it would have made little difference. Those jurors who have spoken, have stated that they saw the dysfunction, but they interpreted it as the reason for CFCA not reporting Caylee missing.
Giving them MORE dysfunction, was giving them more reason to excuse CFCA's behaviour.

I have a theory to tender, on how so much got overlooked.

Usually the accused has the presumption of innocence and the SA gets to overcome that presumption with evidence and testimony.
In this case, the DT kept saying WE don't have to prove anything, we don't have to do X Y Z etc, but here's what happened.

The jurors took the DT OS and tried to get the SA to prove the OS didn't happen.

Well, you can't prove a negative, there is NO evidence to support a drowning theory and the SA wasn't trying to tell us what DIDN'T happen, it was trying to show what DID happen.


Because the SA didn't prove the DTs theory didn't happen, the NG verdict was reached.

It is so totally NOT how it's meant to be,but each of those who expressed an opinion during selection said they thought she was guilty. The JUDGE asked them to set that aside.
They agreed and then used the trial to prove her not guilty, using the DTs strawmen.


EG - She could have drowned because the ladder was left up.

Cindy said both she didn't and then, yeah I even called GA.

The EVIDENCE showed she didn't call GA, which leaves only she didn't leave the ladder up.
So no possibility of an ACCIDENTAL drowning.

 

[Phoebeb]

Okay, the alt juror Dean says about the allegation of GA and sexual abuse.

"You can't just erase what they said. So it's always in the back of your mind of It could or did or what not?"

Huh?

Juror Dean: "George, he was just always confrontational, seemed like never wanted to answer questions correctly, always evasive."
Dean: "There's no doubt in my mind that she has an idea of what happened or even participated in what was going on."

Huh? I know he was an alternate, but if he had "no doubt", wouldn't the actual jury too?

 

[GhostCrab]

While I saw the defense put forth all kinds of conflicting testimony and theories, I did not see that on the part of the prosecution. What evidence do you feel they presented that did not support their theory?

I agree the state put on a very clear and concise case. The defense at times made me cringe with how messy their presention was. That said, the evidence, TO ME, did not show beyond a reasonable doubt that Caylee died by suffocation from duct tape, overdose of chloroform or any other means at the hands of KC. From what I saw it could have been an accident or a murder. Nothing was beyond a reasonable doubt.

 

[LancelotLink]

Thanks for the DCFS records. When I read your original post I assumed you meant pre-death.

Do we know if DCFS (or whatever they are called in Florida) were ever called in prior to the death of Caylee.

Well, given the circumstances in which they were called, to investigate a missing live child, one could argue their visit was pre-death. I have not seen any records of any visits prior to the missing child case that was reported. I can't imagine DCFS would be needed, seeing how well the grandparents cared for her.

 

[Chilly Willy]

I agree the state put on a very clear and concise case. The defense at times made me cringe with how messy their presention was. That said, the evidence, TO ME, did not show beyond a reasonable doubt that Caylee died by suffocation from duct tape, overdose of chloroform or any other means at the hands of KC. From what I saw it could have been an accident or a murder. Nothing was beyond a reasonable doubt.

Can you cite one other case ever in which someone tried to make a child's accidental death look like murder?

 

[GhostCrab]

Can you cite one other case ever in which someone tried to make a child's accidental death look like murder?

I have doubts as to whether the duct tape ever covered her mouth and nose, so I can't say whether this was ever an accident that was made to look like a murder.

 

[NSS]

That's not really possible. The canvas laundry bag had a round wire rim opening. This would cause it to be permanently open and tape could not close it. However, the black plastic trash bag(s) could have been taped.

I always tape my black bags b4 binning them, I hate the FL bugs and the smell, and here's my opinion on the tape having been around the bags.

I pull very little tape to seal my bags, and once wrapped it becomes a small "O" shape around the bag.

IF I dumped this bag into the elements and waited for animals or water to destroy, here is what would happen.

Animals just rip open the bag, the tape would be found attached to the neck of the bag, maybe even floated further away from the trash.

Water would likely just loosen the sticky and leave that "O" shaped tape piece. If I let my mind water into unlikely but hey who knows, The tape may have become loosened by the water, straightened itself out and floated close to the skull, then reattached itself to the skull.


However I would have TWO major problems with my 'hey who knows' portion.

Firstly, who would (and why) would anyone use THREE pieces of tape to seal a bag?
The water washes away the adhesive, to the point where the tape falls off the bag, and lays itself flat, so each of the start/end portions of the ripped tape (3) manage to lay themselves out of the 'O' and into a ------ shape, BUT then it got sticky enough to bind the mandible and adhere to the hair matt? It's either sticky or it's not. Duct tape doesn't magically become adhesive again.

 

[Chilly Willy]

I have doubts as to whether the duct tape ever covered her mouth and nose, so I can't say whether this was ever an accident that was made to look like a murder.

In the previous post you said, "From what I saw it could have been an accident or a murder." So, setting the duct tape issue aside:

Considering that parents do not shove toddlers who have died accidentally into garbage bags and leave them in the woods to rot, nor do they go out and party a few hours later without a care in the world never reporting the accident, it's entirely reasonable to rule out accident. Suicide and natural causes can also be ruled out. So what's left?

As Dr. G said, in 100% of the cases of accidental death, 911 is called.

 

[LancelotLink]

We have seen them take their garbage to the curbs and we have seen their bags of garbage on the curb. I don't recall ever seeing the bags taped.

 

[whiteangora]

BBM ITA and also the fact that AL told Casey that he only wanted male babies. I keep thinking that maybe if these 2 things were testified to the outcome would have been different.

That's true, but if you read his words carefully he says "he would not want girls because he would be afraid they might end up looking like him." For some reason he thought of himself as funny looking.

 

[LancelotLink]

That's true, but if you read his words carefully he says "he would not want girls because he would be afraid they might end up looking like him." For some reason he thought of himself as funny looking.

True, but saying that to someone who thinks Irish babies come with accents, I dunno....

 

[GhostCrab]

In the previous post you said, "From what I saw it could have been an accident or a murder." So, setting the duct tape issue aside:

Considering that parents do not shove toddlers who have died accidentally into garbage bags and leave them in the woods to rot, nor do they go out and party a few hours later without a care in the world never reporting the accident, it's entirely reasonable to rule out accident. Suicide and natural causes can also be ruled out. So what's left?

As Dr. G said, in 100% of the cases of accidental death, 911 is called.

I disagree. Who knows what people are capable of. I know she quit high school and went on to live as if she hadn't and that she lost her job and contiued to carry on as if she was still working. So unless there is evidence excluding reasonable doubt that shows that she murdered her child I will continue to believe that we do not know how she died.

 

[NSS]

We have seen them take their garbage to the curbs and we have seen their bags of garbage on the curb. I don't recall ever seeing the bags taped.

I agree, I was just trying to explain how the jurors claiming that the duct tape may have been on the bag, and not the skull falls apart if you apply a little logic.

Even the jurors opinions don't pass the sniff test (recall Dr Vass....)

 

[Chilly Willy]

I disagree. Who knows what people are capable of. I know she quit high school and went on to live as if she hadn't and that she lost her job and contiued to carry on as if she was still working. So unless there is evidence excluding reasonable doubt that shows that she murdered her child I will continue to believe that we do not know how she died.

You're comparing the death of a child to dropping out of school or losing a minimum wage job? In my world, when a child dies, a big part of the mother dies too and never fully recovers from the loss. Never do they put the child in a garbage bag and basically carry her to the curb and then go about their merry way. In order to see reasonable doubt in this case it's necessary to suspend reality. I can't do that.

 

[LancelotLink]

I agree, I was just trying to explain how the jurors claiming that the duct tape may have been on the bag, and not the skull falls apart if you apply a little logic.

Even the jurors opinions don't pass the sniff test (recall Dr Vass....)

I agree with you!
The more I hear from this jury, the more I am sickened at the lack of logic applied, lack of effort taken, lack of time devoted and lack of justification given for this verdict.

 

[Chilly Willy]

I agree with you!
The more I hear from this jury, the more I am sickened at the lack of logic applied, lack of effort taken, lack of time devoted and lack of justification given for this verdict.

Can you imagine being the child of one of these jurors?

Mom: "Okay, who ate the cookies after I told you not to?"

Child: "It wasn't me."

Mom: "Well then, I don't know what happened to them. Now go wash those crumbs off your face and let's get you ready for bed."

 

[GhostCrab]

:

You're comparing the death of a child to dropping out of school or losing a minimum wage job? In my world, when a child dies, a big part of the mother dies too and never fully recovers from the loss. Never do they put the child in a garbage bag and basically carry her to the curb and then go about their merry way. In order to see reasonable doubt in this case it's necessary to suspend reality. I can't do that.

She clearly established a pattern of behavior: whenever something signifigent happened in her life she continued on as if it didn't. I do not pretend to know WHY but it seemed that no matter how much turmoil her life was in, she carried on. And reasonable minds can differ...I see reasonable doubt everywhere in this case.

 

[LancelotLink]

Can you imagine being the child of one of these jurors?

Mom: "Okay, who ate the cookies after I told you not to?"

Child: "It wasn't me."

Mom: "Well then, I don't know what happened to them. Now go wash those crumbs off your face and let's get you ready for bed."

:banghead: :floorlaugh:

 

[Velouria]

True, but saying that to someone who thinks Irish babies come with accents, I dunno....

:floorlaugh: When I read that I wondered why the DT didn't ask for a competency test much sooner!

 

[Velouria]

I disagree. Who knows what people are capable of. I know she quit high school and went on to live as if she hadn't and that she lost her job and contiued to carry on as if she was still working. So unless there is evidence excluding reasonable doubt that shows that she murdered her child I will continue to believe that we do not know how she died.

She continued on as though she had a job in order to:

1)Have an excuse to leave Caylee with whomever she could persuade to babysit her.

2)Keep her parents off her back.

As JA said, there was always some sort of gain or advantage for Casey when it came to her lies. They weren't imaginary friends and situations, they were convenient excuses and alibis.