4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, 2022 #78

Status
Not open for further replies.
I've heard other opinions as well. But they may be right. Or not. I think it tells us that there's a lot of work ahead, so while not unusual, certainly wouldn't be needed if this was going to be an obvious slam dunk or plea deal imo.

:)
As to the bolded above----I don't think that is true because there is not really such a thing as a 'slam dunk' quadruple murder. [unless the killer sits and waits for the cops to arrive.]

It will always be a huge amount of evidence and legal paperwork, warrants, interviews, witnesses, considering there are 4 dead bodies and all that comes with that, and the autopsies and then the deep dives into each victim's past and all of that.
 
I'm a little slow today, but just typing over almost lunch... it seems that there are so many ways the defense can take this. Questions around when BK was identified as a suspect and the timing of the expanded Elantra years, the fact that the number of years increased instead of narrowed even though they had multiple videos and an expert with 35 years experience, maybe even sympathizing with the poor quality of the videos that could make it difficult even for an expert to ID the car, and all those routes lead back to: And so even with all of your expertise, you were wrong the first time. How do we know you're not just wrong the second time, too? Probably not in those words exactly lol, but the point to make. If car evidence is dinged up, and no GPS during time of crime, it seems like a lot would hinge on DNA - just based on what we know now. JMO at this moment in time and ICBW.
I don't doubt for a moment that the Defense will try to make something of the auto misidentification.

But surely there has never been a criminal case of any complexity where there wasn't also evidence that was at some point misunderstood. The only difference in the Idaho 4 case is that the BOLO issued by Moscow LE allowed all of us to see the error.

I think a skilled prosecutor will be able to handle such a stratagem. It won't just be a case of "on second look", but of third, fourth, 80th and 105th look as well. And it won't necessarily just be one auto expert, but two or several or even more.

If the best the Defense can do is "at one point early in the case LE misidentified the year of the car", then BK should seriously consider any plea bargain, if one is offered.

(ETA I'm not saying the prosecution of BK will be a "slam dunk". How would anyone know at this point? I just can't think of a case where a jury acquitted because "somebody in LE" made a miscall at some point in the past, an error that was later corrected.)
 
Last edited:
"Technically, you are not supposed to enter the intersection for any reason after...[light turns red]." LE is very nice to him.

Explains what a red light means several times. He dissembles/argues. Argues a lot, IMO. Makes excuses. Wow.

IMO.
As soon as BK starts questioning the officer, her voice changes and she sounds less sure of herself. You can hear his tone change when he asks if he should have backed up and reversed out of the intersection. Snarky!

BK mentions being from a rural area that doesn't have cross walks. Didn't he also mention assisting law enforcement with rural policing in his application for an internship with Pullman PD?
I interpret her tone entirely differently, MOO. It’s a discussion she’s had with a hundred of students & she wasn’t going to be sucked into his game, MOO.

Also MOO, but striking to me were the word games BK unsuccessfully tried to play. And how easily the lies rolled off his tongue. It was kinda chilling to me.

All MOO.
 
The results of the 2 things tested that are presumptive positive for blood were BK's pillow and mattress pad he left behind (cuttings taken from them).

If the blood stains are his and can be dated as reasonably fresh (November - December timeframe), which seems reasonable, IMO, this fits with speculation that he sustained injuries during the alleged stabbings of Kaylee, Maddie, Xana and Ethan.

Blood from his wounds could have leaked onto his bedding after the murders until the wounds healed up.

The rest of the numerous reddish brown stains on surfaces in his apartment that were tested were negative for blood.

One possibility for what caused the reddish brown stains that fits with speculation that BK had wounds from the murders, is that he used iodine for wound care and to speed up healing, and got it on things that he touched around the apartment.

MOO
 
I don't go for the black-and-white thinking I've seen in the MSM and on social media that if he did it, then everything must be true and all his actions are suspect.
I consider nuance in pretty much everything. People, in general, are rarely "black and white." ! I also wonder why so many people are determined to believe that BK is the murderer. He may be, but why the insistence to "convict" on partial evidence or on the increasingly common assurance that, "LE has more that we'll see at the hearing..."

I enjoy the discussions and deep dives into what we know, but I don't feel the need to declare BK guilty or not guilty based on incomplete information.

Apparently there are multiple videos, including the one of the three-point turn, so seems like with all those angles and all that technology, it seems like they'd be able to zero in. IDK and ICBW. I still find it a point of interest.
Yes. How are there so many videos of this white car, but visuals of the license plate?
I agree. The only other real difference I saw was the color of the grill and I don't know how many versions of that car were available. Some vehicles have all kinds of trim options so, at this point, I don't know if that was simply a different trim option or an actual difference between the model years.

I realize that the FBI has cool tools to help them clean up pictures and videos, and I'm sure they do a lot more than Paint Shop Pro or Photoshop, but I don't think even the FBI can fix everything. Headlights create glare on the cameras, bad angles as the car comes through, speeding car creates blur, a car passing the other way blocks the view, bushes or trees between the car and camera, etc.
Very true, but I think the question some are raising is that the person who identified the car is a 35-yr vet, not your garden variety web sleuth. @Montecore1 was able to point out several differences between the models the FBI agent told LE to look for and the 2015 model BK owns, yet the FBI agent did not make the distinction. IMO, that seems less like a mistake by a LE veteran and more a matter of unclear videos.

I'm amazed and intrigued that there does not seem to be video or photo evidence of the car's back plate. I am making the assumption that no such evidence exists (1.) because LE requested info on the driver of a white Elantra rather than using license plate info to identify the owner of the car.
MOO the traffic stop won't be the only data of his route that night.
There will be pings amd probably satellite location.
Given BKs penchant for speeding i would think he got stopped, warned and as a courtesy only ticketed for his seatbelt.
My opinions are based on what know now and what we have court documentation to support (as much as we can around seals and redactions), not what LE might have later.
It only shows that his DNA was on an object that would have been carried into the crime scene.
This is so important. BK's DNA on the knife sheath found at the murder scene does not automatically = BK was at the murder scene.
They hoped to flush BK out. They were trying to entice him to do the thing that was best for him - and for Justice, which is go talk to police. He of course knew Criminal Procedure (at least a little, given that he might have taken it online and not have had to actually visit courtrooms). A guilty person should never go talk to police, is likely what he learned on Reddit and in his CJ classes (let's not forget he was active on various SM and not just as a commenter - he clearly knows how to read).

The jury will understand that the year difference is not a big deal (and if it is, then the State's case is fairly weak).
I find that hard to believe LE would attempt to flush out a known person of interest suspected of committing a mass homicide. And certainly not with purposely incorrect information. If they really thought he was the killer, unless they were tailing him 24/7, allowing him to come to them would have put potentially put other people in danger.

'The mistaken model year will likely be of little to no consequence if other pieces of evidence tie BK to the murders. However, as a juror, if his car was the chain that linked BK to that house on the night of 11/13, the year difference would absolutely be a big deal.

Yep. You may be right, and ICBW, but 'pending student conduct charges' probably related to the reasons he was fired from his position, and we already know the basic reasons for that
That letter makes me, once again, question if BK was actually fired. The supposed firing was a little over a week before the "you've been trespassed" notice. The notice coincides with the PCA and BK's arrest. At that point, WSU does not know if he will be released on bond, so they want to make sure he does not return to campus if released. They do know that he has an apartment on campus. There is mention of an incident, but there is no date attached or specific reference to anything that happened prior to his arrest, no, "as stated previously in our ----- meeting on ...etc."


It doesn't appear, from reading the LE documents, including BK's office warrant, that WSU notified LE that BK no longer worked there. Of course, they did not have to do that, but I'd think they would have under the circumstances. LE may have searched it anyway, but perhaps not considering that they didn't bother searching the storage unit due to its apparent lack of use. If WSU did fire him, would they have cleared his space of any personal or proprietary items and told LE when they asked for the keys?

'All JMO, of course.
 
I've been thinking about the whole VSS thing. BK managed to navigate in a strange house with a confusing layout in the dark meanwhile he has some kind of visual impairment?

VSS varies drastically by person--both in what kind of visual effects they experience as well as severity. My son has it and actually can see much better at night than daytime. His has also improved quite a bit since he first started having it 4 years ago, so BK's could have improved vastly since those Tap-a-Talk posts from when he was in jr high/high school.
 
I don't doubt for a moment that the Defense will try to make something of the auto misidentification.

But surely there has never been a criminal case of any complexity where there wasn't also evidence that was at some point misunderstood. The only difference in the Idaho 4 case is that the BOLO issued by Moscow LE allowed all of us to see the error.

I think a skilled prosecutor will be able to handle such a stratagem. It won't just be a case of "on second look", but of third, fourth, 80th and 105th look as well. And it won't necessarily just be one auto expert, but two or several or even more.

If the best the Defense can do is "at one point early in the case LE misidentified the year of the car", then BK should seriously consider any plea bargain, if one is offered.
I agree. I'm not sure that too much can be made of it though ofcourse it is the defense's job to try. As you say, ofcourse (IMO) the prosecution will be prepared- they will need to reveal aspects of investigative technqiue and strategy as well as how the investigation evolved over time IMO. The relevant special agent/s/specialist/s will also testify IMO.

From what we have in front of us at this point -that is the information as laid out in the PCA and LE's public announcement re hyundai elantras made on DEc 7th- all I can see is that at one point (possibly in the first week of analysis of the footage as it was coming in) the date range for suspect vehicle 1 was believed to be 2011-2013. It was then extended to 2011-2016 and I believe this had occurred internally by Nov 25th according to my reading of the PCA. For reason's that will no doubt be revealed at trial, the public announcement did not include the extended date range. I expect there to be investigative reasons for this. One main point to me is that no fbi specialist has ever claimed that any one year for the suspect vehicle could be identified through the video footage. There has always been a range. MOO
 
They also found stains on a pillow/pillowcase and mattress cover IIRC. Both were positive for blood but could very well be BKs own.

Initially I was horrified when I read the list of swabs until I saw they were all negative. Then just a bit grossed out. I don't recall anything about a shower curtain. Maybe the shower had a door? JMO I don't think BK would have intentionally mixed up his own shower curtain with evidence of the crime but then again he did a number of other careless things.

The part about the shower curtain was in the narrative report at the end of the document. Don't think it would have had a door because then there would be no need to mention there was no shower curtain.

I was imagining him showering with all of that blood on him, so he through away the shower curtain.
 
Still the cars are virtually identical.
Where was BK during the 3:00-5:00 am hours.
Where was any other Elantra from, where did it go?
These questions are important IMO and ones that investigators almost certainly have made efforts to answer. I believe we will find out at trial about investigative due diligence in terms of other white elantras in Moscow on the relevantt night and also re other POIs that were eliminated along the way. We know that there were many, many public tips LE received regarding white hyundai elantras, in addition to LE so very likely following their own lines of enquiry. For instance, checking out vehicles registered to staff and students at WSU appears to have been one line of enquiry. This is laid out briefly in the PCA. There is no reason to doubt (to my mind) that LE had the resources necessary to do similar enquiries at UofId and also other organisations/places where vehicle registration is required. I even believe LE did enough to have a good idea of how many white hyundai elantras, 2011-2016, were registered in the immediate area (Pullman, Moscow) and checked out relevant owners/drivers through some kind of complicated and exhaustive elimination process. I'm only speculating, but for LE not to have engaged in due diligence as regards SODDI 1 or SODDI 2 seems inconceivable given the nature of the circumstantial evidence at the time of arrest. MOO
 

Goncalves and Mogen, who were seniors, will be awarded degrees posthumously. The U of I will award certificates posthumously to Kernodle, who was a junior, and Chapin, who was a freshman.
How wonderful. I think this will be a very sad occasion but also a healing one.
 
MOO in my opinion the model years are near identical and MOO jurors take their service very seriously, so a missed year span won't be an issue.
Of course there may be other reasons they have doubts, but MOO this won't affect them much.
Yes, and I also think the prosecution is not going to try and make more of the analysis of the video footage than what it can actually reveal re model year. I don't think the prosecution is going to claim that the video footage allows for the id of an exact year of the elantra. The evidence from the video footage is that it is a range only. It may be easy enough for an expert specialist to see the small differences between a 2015 elantra and a 2011-14/2016 elantra in broad daylight, but the video footage evidence is not claiming that, it has always been about a range. The evidence will show without reasonable doubt IMO that suspect vehicle 1 could be a 2015 elantra and that the vehicle sported one number plate only. The prosecution will present a set of circumstances (other evidence) to try and show that it is reasonable that BK's car is suspect vehicle 1. In the end, the jury will be asked to decide based on the totality of the circumstances. Also to add, although it seems highly unlikely to me, there may be more evidence we don't know about (perhaps recovered since arrest) that shows the defendant in his car in Moscow on the night. MOO
 
ByMikeBaker


We also received 166 pages related to December search of Kohberger's apartment, including details on blood testing (2 things presumptive positive) and items collected. Sharing the full file, as I know many are watching the facts of this case closely: https://int.nyt.com/data/documenttools/kohberger-search-records-from-wsu/6e5a6ce24a286a06/full.pdf
Thank you so much for posting the full file. There's a fair amount of extra details there about the timeline around the arrest and WA search warrants. Also some interesting info about WSU that could connect to the sealed search warrant addressed to the Registrar. Also some interesting info about the defense accessing the defendant's appartment. Will take some reading and digesting. MOO
 
Apologies for repeatedly writing WSU as WCU. There's a logical reason but still no excuse for being careless.

As for the body cam video, I didn't see anything unusual regarding how either of them acted or interacted. Just MOO.
I agree, in the video cam footage of the 10/14/22 traffic stop both just seemed to be behaving normally IMO. That is I didn't see any thing that I would call abnormal behaviour, or a red flag. Just two people interacting where you get a glimpse into their respective personalities. MOO
 
I think some of the families also want to start foundations or charities. In my own lifetime, this has been a common thing for bereaved families to do (and not just due to murder). I feel so badly for these families, not being able to do that, because apparently any mention of the case could put them in legal jeopardy.

That doesn't seem right. I hope there's a ruling soon. The families should have the right to grieve (including human speech, which is central to human existence) as they see fit.

IMO.
I've only seen this one other time and it's the Delphi murders. The family cannot speak because of the gag order there also.
 
Still the cars are virtually identical.
Where was BK during the 3:00-5:00 am hours.
Where was any other Elantra from, where did it go?
Also, I've wondered if LE didn't intentionally keep the model vague after they figured out it was BK in order to not tip him off. Once they found the car and pulled up his Drivers License, pretty identical to what the roommate described, they wouldn't want spook him further by identifying the exact year.

I mean he did change his plate from PA to WA just days after the murder, I personally believe it was an effort to disguise it. PA has front and back plates, WA only back plates. Mighty coincidental IMO.

JMO
 
You’re right. So does that make it 3 pullovers in a month?!
One thing we do know for certain about BK...he's a horrible driver.

I do believe he thought LE was on to him with those 2 back-to-back stops in IN. I mean who gets pulled over 2 times in 10 minutes for the same thing, following too closely?

MOO
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Staff online

Members online

Online statistics

Members online
167
Guests online
4,129
Total visitors
4,296

Forum statistics

Threads
593,126
Messages
17,981,410
Members
229,031
Latest member
oceandreamer753
Back
Top