4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #81

[BUF]

Yes, I agree it could be something else, but would his parents be considered witnesses? Whereas they could be considered as direct witnesses to him cleaning his car in December and throwing things out in the neighbors' garbage bin etc...
I shudder at the thought of this being related to the ID cards and what that might imply.

IMO, it has to be something pretty substantial to convene a grand jury.

 

[North_Idaho_Nony]

Consciousness of guilt, especially if it was a new habit, combined with a fundamental misunderstanding that they didn't need his actual DNA; anyone in that household could identify him.

It’s curious to me he apparently didn’t wear gloves during the cross-country drive with his father (at least, he wasn’t wearing them during the 2 traffic stops), but it’s confirmed he was wearing them in the family home when he was arrested in the middle of the night.

 

[NuttMegg]

WOW! Thanks for reporting this!! I was struck by the part about....'they can only be subpoenaed about crimes that happened in Pennsylvania'.......

Destruction of evidence makes sense.......

If the daughter/sister did make the comment about Kohberger wearing latex gloves after he returned home, maybe that opened a Pandora's box.

I'm trying to remember when he transferred ownership of the car to himself, anyone remember? If the car was still his parents' (mother?) then he might have been disinfecting their car? As owners they would be responsible for letting him? Maybe we'll have to resurrect "what did they know and when did they know it". Did some neighbors turn BK in for something they saw him do in/near the house in PA?

 

[NyxNY]

I'm replying to my own post because I found out that AB and NN reported it on Dec 7th. We did speculate a little on it, but I was thinking...is there a chance that LE transported the 'confidential witness(es)' in that van to the scene for reenactment?

The Kelsey Berreth case had the State's star witness disguised as a FBI agent to walk around that crime scene and point out the areas of blood she cleaned.

It's always seemed strange that a HVAC van was located at the scene.

MOO

Why was HVAC contractor at the crime scene?

I've said it before, and I will say it again. There is something to that HVAC van that I can't shake. This may be it, or it may not be. It just didn't belong there while the crime scene was still active IMO. I do not recall any of the media doing live coverage filming when it pulled up. It was always just in the background of their coverage. Someone has to have it.

 

[NuttMegg]

Could it be related to the bits from nflix? Ie a member of the family suspecting he had something to do with the murders in Idaho? I am skeptical of that but what if there had been a discussion amongst family members?

 

[Idaho transplant]

<modsnip: quoted post was removed>
Idaho legislators have taken a strong stance on crime; no insanity defense, the death penalty and as of 7/1/2023, an alternate method of execution will be the firing squad. The Governor is quoted today as stating that these are the laws of
the people and must be followed. Or, are these laws to be used as a tool by the prosecutor to be the host of 'Let's
make a deal?'

Following is a quote from Kohberger's mother: In a letter to the editor published in March 2008 in The Pocono Record newspaper, under the headline “I Pray We Think of the Children Before the Gun,” Maryann wrote, “I personally do not support abortion, and certainly not the death penalty. State-sanctioned murder is still just that: murder.”

Ironic.

 

[NyxNY]

FIRST ON CNN: Parents of Idaho student murder suspect have been subpoenaed to testify before Pennsylvania grand jury | CNN

The parents of Bryan Kohberger have been subpoenaed to testify before a Monroe County, Pennsylvania, investigative grand jury, according to a source familiar with the situation.

www.cnn.com

Wait, what?

From the article: By law, a Monroe County grand jury can only review potential crimes that occurred within Monroe County, Pennsylvania. It is unclear what potential crime they are investigating.

What crime happened in PA?

 

[Helechawagirl]

<modsnip: quoted post was removed>

Idaho legislators have taken a strong stance on crime; no insanity defense, the death penalty and as of 7/1/2023, an alternate method of execution will be the firing squad. The Governor is quoted today as stating that these are the laws of
the people and must be followed. Or, are these laws to be used as a tool by the prosecutor to be the host of 'Let's
make a deal?'

Following is a quote from Kohberger's mother: In a letter to the editor published in March 2008 in The Pocono Record newspaper, under the headline “I Pray We Think of the Children Before the Gun,” Maryann wrote, “I personally do not support abortion, and certainly not the death penalty. State-sanctioned murder is still just that: murder.”

Ironic.

Horrific of course but I don’t think it will make the loss feel any better. The goneness of the victims is forever. Killing BK a 1,000 times won’t make it hurt less. If he did this, he deserves it, but I fear SG won’t feel any better…especially if it drags on for years. JMO

 

[10ofRods]

I appreciate these discussions & the opportunity to learn!

For me, the single source male DNA on the sheath button is powerful. Is it possible BCK’s DNA got there as a previous owner? Anything is possible.

Is it possible a theoretical “new” owner/murderer managed to handle & use that sheath without leaving any of their DNA? Again, anything is possible, but for me, that feels highly unlikely, MOO.

And when considering all the other known points you reviewed, the theory that BCK’s DNA was left on the sheath as a previous owner doesn’t feel reasonable to me. MOO

Of course, everything has to be presented in court with the defense having a chance to address.

I know this has been addressed in previous threads many times, & I apologize for asking again, but I’d appreciate it if one of our forensic WSers could again explain in general terms what’s involved in separating mixed DNA samples? How difficult/easy it is, how time-consuming or not it is, etc. Please feel free to link to a previous post rather than reinventing the wheel — I’m happy to read what’s already been shared but still haven’t mastered the Search function. TIA!

First the DNA is amplified. There are dozens of different algorithms for then analyzing the nucleotide sequences. Every living organism is a bit different from all other organisms. Obviously, a lot of DNA is shared among life forms (we are 60% the same as bananas; 99% the same as chimpanzees). So, the human genome project looks at the *other* genes to ascertain first that we're looking at a human. Each allele in the human genome is surrounded by nucleotides that are not part of the code - they tell us a lot, though (as they are not selected for and ride along in a population, helping us to distinguish ancestry).

So we look at the actual alleles. One would be the allele for hemoglobin which has about 500 variations worldwide. Most people have two different alleles there (one from mom, one from dad). All the similar alleles are looked at. It doesn't take long before we have an individual DNA analysis for a person. If we found 3 different alleles for this trait, it would mean that more than one individual was involved (having an extra chromosome is a serious problem and rarely results in normal physiology). Naturally, we'd want to see more than one example of this kind. Different algorithms are applied in different labs, but as the data comes in, we know how to string all the alleles together, because the human genome is well studied (we know the length and the basic codons that are essential to each allele - we look, again, at the uniquely human alleles, which are about 2700 alleles, each made up of thousands or hundreds of thousands of individual base pairs of nucleotides - you may have learned those as A,T, C and G). One gene can have up to 200 million bases. Others have only a few hundred. We look hard at those long ones.

We now know that all organisms have mutations - and at a higher rate than previously thought.

So, to make it brief: we look for alleles that are unique and we look for the complete genome through our knowledge of what an allele is and what so-called "junk DNA" is (the part that separates the alleles - although we now know that this DNA may actually provide certain instructions to the body). If we compare relatives, the average person is about 50% identical to their parents in overall allele function, but may have a single point mutation somewhere in these millions of bits of data. This person will pass that on to their own offspring - but a point mutation is likely to occur somewhere else. Many point mutations are neutral in the context of a long allele.

Siblings usually share 50% of those alleles. Half-siblings, about 25%. Two different humans will not have the exact same alleles. So looking for a second source of DNA means first making sure that the DNA Is completely mapped and that there are no more than 2 alleles per location. Three alleles that fit into a location (and remember, hundreds of thousands of alleles are known and in the algorithm already) is a sign that there's another contributor. Zero extra alleles means it all comes from one person - but even, then, there are second and third ways of checking to see that it's one individual.

Hope that helps. In Kohberger's case, I'd be so interested to see if he has any mutations in the area that controls the visual cortex (where VSS is thought to operate). Of the alleles that are unique to humans, a lot of them do have to do with the brain. Interestingly, alleles are used and reused in various combinations in many different body functions (so an unusual visual cortex allele might be associated with several different outcomes, in terms of physiological traits).

Certain regions of human DNA have such high variability (like the hemoglobin gene) that it's fairly easy to see whether just one human is involved; if it were only that one locus/allele, of course, the chances would be about 1 in 500 of uniqueness - but there are several other locations with even more alleles - even for eye color, there's not just one gene for brown eyes or blue eyes - there are way more for brown than for blue, but there are many for each of those; we also know exactly where to look within the context of bits of DNA for those alleles, even if the DNA is not in chromosomal form). So if we look at 2000 locations, with up to a power of 300-1000 (available alleles) we get a very large number: 2000 to the 300th power is huge). So, if even ONE stray allele (extra) is found in this area, one allele with a tiny difference from the two others expected - it's two people.

And the hemoglobin gene does not affect survival - each of those alleles is fine; but some are ancient (1 million years old - coming to us from a pre-human population) and some are relatively new ones (that is another way of estimating ancestry). Y chromosome is another interesting system, as it is a small, compact chromosome that is often found entire in a sample. Finding two different Y chromosomes in a sample means two different people.

HTH. I know it's long. What the computer does is insert its "knowledge" of both "junk" DNA and the human genome into the analysis of what is found on the swab. Most times, long bits of a chromosome are still intact, but even if not, the computer recognizes which allele goes where, as they serve no purpose in a living organism other than to keep the organism alive and to build the body structure we see with our eyes. Each location is slightly different, IOW; and then the alleles are different too.

 

[Idaho transplant]

Horrific of course but I don’t think it will make the loss feel any better. The goneness of the victims is forever. Killing BK a 1,000 times won’t make it hurt less. If he did this, he deserves it, but I fear SG won’t feel any better…especially if it drags on for years. JMO

Personally, I believe the DP or LIPWP should be left to the victim's family to decide, not left in the hands of the prosecutor. IMO, I think 3 of the 4 families would agree to the DP.

 

[Helechawagirl]

I do not know. However, IMO a suspect's DNA under the fingernails of a murder victim is more telling/convincing/shows more probable cause than DNA on an object that could have been left or placed on the bed by someone else or at a different time. If I planned to use only one of the two pieces of evidence I would go with the evidence under the fingernails.

As for the gloves, I believe that came from the Dateline episode. Even if she said that I do not see its relevance to the murders. Even if he committed the murders why would his wearing gloves inside his home in PA six weeks afterward have any bearing on the case?

Maybe if he was handling objects belonging to the victims or used in the attack? JMO

 

[Helechawagirl]

First the DNA is amplified. There are dozens of different algorithms for then analyzing the nucleotide sequences. Every living organism is a bit different from all other organisms. Obviously, a lot of DNA is shared among life forms (we are 60% the same as bananas; 99% the same as chimpanzees). So, the human genome project looks at the *other* genes to ascertain first that we're looking at a human. Each allele in the human genome is surrounded by nucleotides that are not part of the code - they tell us a lot, though (as they are not selected for and ride along in a population, helping us to distinguish ancestry).

So we look at the actual alleles. One would be the allele for hemoglobin which has about 500 variations worldwide. Most people have two different alleles there (one from mom, one from dad). All the similar alleles are looked at. It doesn't take long before we have an individual DNA analysis for a person. If we found 3 different alleles for this trait, it would mean that more than one individual was involved (having an extra chromosome is a serious problem and rarely results in normal physiology). Naturally, we'd want to see more than one example of this kind. Different algorithms are applied in different labs, but as the data comes in, we know how to string all the alleles together, because the human genome is well studied (we know the length and the basic codons that are essential to each allele - we look, again, at the uniquely human alleles, which are about 2700 alleles, each made up of thousands or hundreds of thousands of individual base pairs of nucleotides - you may have learned those as A,T, C and G). One gene can have up to 200 million bases. Others have only a few hundred. We look hard at those long ones.

We now know that all organisms have mutations - and at a higher rate than previously thought.

So, to make it brief: we look for alleles that are unique and we look for the complete genome through our knowledge of what an allele is and what so-called "junk DNA" is (the part that separates the alleles - although we now know that this DNA may actually provide certain instructions to the body). If we compare relatives, the average person is about 50% identical to their parents in overall allele function, but may have a single point mutation somewhere in these millions of bits of data. This person will pass that on to their own offspring - but a point mutation is likely to occur somewhere else. Many point mutations are neutral in the context of a long allele.

Siblings usually share 50% of those alleles. Half-siblings, about 25%. Two different humans will not have the exact same alleles. So looking for a second source of DNA means first making sure that the DNA Is completely mapped and that there are no more than 2 alleles per location. Three alleles that fit into a location (and remember, hundreds of thousands of alleles are known and in the algorithm already) is a sign that there's another contributor. Zero extra alleles means it all comes from one person - but even, then, there are second and third ways of checking to see that it's one individual.

Hope that helps. In Kohberger's case, I'd be so interested to see if he has any mutations in the area that controls the visual cortex (where VSS is thought to operate). Of the alleles that are unique to humans, a lot of them do have to do with the brain. Interestingly, alleles are used and reused in various combinations in many different body functions (so an unusual visual cortex allele might be associated with several different outcomes, in terms of physiological traits).

Certain regions of human DNA have such high variability (like the hemoglobin gene) that it's fairly easy to see whether just one human is involved; if it were only that one locus/allele, of course, the chances would be about 1 in 500 of uniqueness - but there are several other locations with even more alleles - even for eye color, there's not just one gene for brown eyes or blue eyes - there are way more for brown than for blue, but there are many for each of those; we also know exactly where to look within the context of bits of DNA for those alleles, even if the DNA is not in chromosomal form). So if we look at 2000 locations, with up to a power of 300-1000 (available alleles) we get a very large number: 2000 to the 300th power is huge). So, if even ONE stray allele (extra) is found in this area, one allele with a tiny difference from the two others expected - it's two people.

And the hemoglobin gene does not affect survival - each of those alleles is fine; but some are ancient (1 million years old - coming to us from a pre-human population) and some are relatively new ones (that is another way of estimating ancestry). Y chromosome is another interesting system, as it is a small, compact chromosome that is often found entire in a sample. Finding two different Y chromosomes in a sample means two different people.

HTH. I know it's long. What the computer does is insert its "knowledge" of both "junk" DNA and the human genome into the analysis of what is found on the swab. Most times, long bits of a chromosome are still intact, but even if not, the computer recognizes which allele goes where, as they serve no purpose in a living organism other than to keep the organism alive and to build the body structure we see with our eyes. Each location is slightly different, IOW; and then the alleles are different too.

There you go showing off that education! Lol. I appreciate your expertise.

 

[PrairieWind]

RBBM
"A small sample found on the snap of a sheath could have been left by a previous owner of the sheath, no way to know."

I may be misinterpreting in some way, but I truly do not understand what you mean here. How do you conclude that the sample found on the snap could have been left by a previous owner and that there is no way to know? Are you talking about the snap button of the sheath found at the crime scene?

All we know at this point is that the dna profile found on the snap button was single source male. That sample was compared with defendant's father's dna, which showed that the DNA on snap button was likely left by male whose father was 99.99998% likely to be BK's father. We have no reason to not believe that BK's actual DNA (swabs taken at arrest) have since been compared to the single source male dna sample on the snap button of the sheath. We have no reason at this point to assume that there are problems with the DNA evidence.MOO

I guess we can speculate about potential problems if so and so was to happen -IDK like some chain of custody problem, some problem with testing techniques that we currently know no details of?, but I see no current basis for assuming that so and so has happenned or is likely to happen. MOO

I am not going to comment on DNA in this case further. My attempts to clarify how DNA can and cannot be used and how the defense may address this are being totally taken out of context. I'm just done with this.

 

[10ofRods]

It’s curious to me he apparently didn’t wear gloves during the cross-country drive with his father (at least, he wasn’t wearing them during the 2 traffic stops), but it’s confirmed he was wearing them in the family home when he was arrested in the middle of the night.

Probably because he was frequently wiping the parts of the car that he was touching (and his father would have really thought he was weird - even unsafe). He apparently continues to work on cleaning his car at his parents' house.

He knew they couldn't get inside his car without a warrant (so he needed to wipe the handles, as criminals do). But they could get garbage. So he's trying to avoid touching anything that could possibly go in the trash, I imagine. IMO, he knew about the GSK case, as well as all the others he knew about.

IMO.

FIRST ON CNN: Parents of Idaho student murder suspect have been subpoenaed to testify before Pennsylvania grand jury | CNN

The parents of Bryan Kohberger have been subpoenaed to testify before a Monroe County, Pennsylvania, investigative grand jury, according to a source familiar with the situation.

www.cnn.com

Wait, what?

From the article: By law, a Monroe County grand jury can only review potential crimes that occurred within Monroe County, Pennsylvania. It is unclear what potential crime they are investigating.

What crime happened in PA?

Destruction of evidence?

Attempt to destroy evidence?

In most states, concealing evidence is also a crime, usually treated with the same penalty as destroying it.

Possession of stolen property? (The ID's?) This seems likely.

All of the above? I sure hope that's it - because my mind goes to some darker possibilities. Why the heck did he keep those ID's?

IMO.

 

[Idaho transplant]

Probably because he was frequently wiping the parts of the car that he was touching (and his father would have really thought he was weird - even unsafe). He apparently continues to work on cleaning his car at his parents' house.

He knew they couldn't get inside his car without a warrant (so he needed to wipe the handles, as criminals do). But they could get garbage. So he's trying to avoid touching anything that could possibly go in the trash, I imagine. IMO, he knew about the GSK case, as well as all the others he knew about.

IMO.


Destruction of evidence?

Attempt to destroy evidence?

In most states, concealing evidence is also a crime, usually treated with the same penalty as destroying it.

Possession of stolen property? (The ID's?) This seems likely.

All of the above? I sure hope that's it - because my mind goes to some darker possibilities. Why the heck did he keep those ID's?

IMO.

It's interesting that the mother and father have been subpoenaed but no mention of the sisters.

 

[North_Idaho_Nony]

FIRST ON CNN: Parents of Idaho student murder suspect have been subpoenaed to testify before Pennsylvania grand jury | CNN

The parents of Bryan Kohberger have been subpoenaed to testify before a Monroe County, Pennsylvania, investigative grand jury, according to a source familiar with the situation.

www.cnn.com

Wait, what?

From the article: By law, a Monroe County grand jury can only review potential crimes that occurred within Monroe County, Pennsylvania. It is unclear what potential crime they are investigating.

What crime happened in PA?

PA LE & Monroe County DA announced in pressers after BCK’s arrest they would be investigating.

My fervent hope is those investigations have borne fruit about previously unsolved crimes committed in Monroe County, PA. MOO

If you missed it, you can watch the 1/3/2023 full presser here:
Bryan Kohberger arrest: Pennsylvania Police hold press conference

HTH & MOO

 

[Cindizzi]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1661460528097820679

https://twitter.com/x/status/1661460531201605633

 

[gliving]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1661460528097820679

https://twitter.com/x/status/1661460531201605633

 

[NCWatcher]

It’s curious to me he apparently didn’t wear gloves during the cross-country drive with his father (at least, he wasn’t wearing them during the 2 traffic stops), but it’s confirmed he was wearing them in the family home when he was arrested in the middle of the night.

Yeah but he was doing that odd trash sorting task when arrested. We don't know that he wore gloves at other times. The only thing that's been said about that is the secondhand Dateline story supposedly from one of his sisters. And we have no details about when the sister saw him in gloves. It might have been during other trash sortings. (I'm not saying the trash activity isn't an odd activity. Clearly it is. But doing that doesn't mean he wore them at other times in the family home. We just don't know.) I do think though the fact he didn't wear gloves in the car in cold weather suggests he may not have been as worried about touching non-trash surfaces as some have assumed.
JMO

 

[NuttMegg]

FIRST ON CNN: Parents of Idaho student murder suspect have been subpoenaed to testify before Pennsylvania grand jury | CNN

The parents of Bryan Kohberger have been subpoenaed to testify before a Monroe County, Pennsylvania, investigative grand jury, according to a source familiar with the situation.

www.cnn.com

Wait, what?

From the article: By law, a Monroe County grand jury can only review potential crimes that occurred within Monroe County, Pennsylvania. It is unclear what potential crime they are investigating.

What crime happened in PA?

https://twitter.com/x/status/1661460528097820679

https://twitter.com/x/status/1661460531201605633

If he has a solid alibi you'd think that it wouldn't go to grand jury. Or maybe the parents are the alibi, lol.