4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #82

[Cool Cats]

Well, I'm going to disagree there. The judge signed off on this as the reason. And I don't think they lie in court documents. PRRs require that documents be shared unless certain conditions apply; same with judicial rules. the links are all over the place, so I'm going with not a lie, and actual conditions, and they vary from order to order, so IMO the judge is not so careless.

Every time someone says boilerplate does not mean they are accusing the prosecution or defense of lying or accusing the judge of being careless.

The questions (statements) are all boilerplate .......

but the written sealed responses we don't see are real facts and NOT boilerplate.

There is a big difference.

2 Cents

 

[10ofRods]

I think some of the warrant language is devise so that, if the information received includes very personal and irrelevant things, as well as what is sought, it is clear that the returns on the warrants will not be made public and will be subject to redaction.

Those of you putting together all the warrant information are so appreciated. And @Cool Cats, your above post is foundational to understand what we know of Kohberger through his own SM posts over time. I expect that he thinks this dramatic loss of feeling/empathy towards others leaves him with...a pure mind, capable of pure reason. He also would lack any ability to use feelings in introspection.

IMO.

 

[10ofRods]

I wonder why there are not any Tapatalk warrants? And why not BK's reddit prior to June 1, 2022? Would these two examples from the article not be considered evidence in any way because it was not taking place in the time of question?

It was all publicly available and downloadable by anyone, when his arrest was first known. I assume LE had already downloaded it. It's also possible that TapATalk has been willingly cooperative. I think they did take his posts down since then haven't checked.

JMO.

 

[Cool Cats]

I think some of the warrant language is devise so that, if the information received includes very personal and irrelevant things, as well as what is sought, it is clear that the returns on the warrants will not be made public and will be subject to redaction.

Those of you putting together all the warrant information are so appreciated. And @Cool Cats, your above post is foundational to understand what we know of Kohberger through his own SM posts over time. I expect that he thinks this dramatic loss of feeling/empathy towards others leaves him with...a pure mind, capable of pure reason. He also would lack any ability to use feelings in introspection.

IMO.

What was the theory you said that you think Kohberger follows?

A criminal theory. I want to look it up, seems interesting.

Thanks

 

[SpiderFalcon]

Rational Choice Theory is what @10ofRods said. INTERESTING!!!!

 

[10ofRods]

What was the theory you said that you think Kohberger follows?

A criminal theory. I want to look it up, seems interesting.

Thanks

His Prof (Prof B at DeSales) said he was into Rational Choice Theory and Script Theory. RCT was, I believe, the invention of economists (who do not use their models to study behavior, per se - but to factor things into various economic models to try and figure out what's going on).

Anyway, RTC theory in criminology is controversial and claims that a good number of criminals are not impulsive nor insane nor agitated. They carefully and rationally plan out how to evade risk, have a sort of diagram in their mind as to how to deal with various things that could get them caught. Script Theory based on RCT would say that the criminal then writes a kind of script (either mentally or literally) and goes by that script. I can't imagine that the original premise of a criminal is to "act rationally" if they are in fact planning a crime, but beyond that, the Criminal is given a lot of credit for reasoning. What time of day? Which place to target? Who is capable of self-defense and who is not? Where to dispose of evidence. What to bring in the kill kit. Etc.

So it's always been plausible that Kohberger did leave an open zipping duffel right by his car, was already undressing as he ran out the door. Threw his shoes into the bag, then his outerwear and mask, and finally, that used pair of gloves. He likely would have practiced these various parts of the script, just like an actor.

Bottom line for RCT: Individuals commit crimes, using their own minds and brains. They have a self-interested goal (that they consider rational). Behavior is freely chosen. Choice is used to gain maximum personal pleasure in the commission of the crime.

From a LE perspective, dealing with such an individual effectively (according to the theory's proponents) means the State must deal out swift, severe and certain punishment (so that the criminal mind has to take that into account and the plans get more and more difficult to make). I found a good .pdf on it.

https://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/document?repid=rep1&type=pdf&doi=8d1b66b6d20c54e1f38be1c6e79bf0c32c4ab331

Oddly, we know that this doesn't exactly work in economics (people buy things they can't afford and get into issues with repossession or debt collection all the time, obviously). We know that many compulsions and addictions cause non-rational behavior. Even in something as apparently rational as buying a car, people can let feelings overwhelm them.

IMO.

 

[acutename]

His Prof (Prof B at DeSales) said he was into Rational Choice Theory and Script Theory. RCT was, I believe, the invention of economists (who do not use their models to study behavior, per se - but to factor things into various economic models to try and figure out what's going on).

Anyway, RTC theory in criminology is controversial and claims that a good number of criminals are not impulsive nor insane nor agitated. They carefully and rationally plan out how to evade risk, have a sort of diagram in their mind as to how to deal with various things that could get them caught. Script Theory based on RCT would say that the criminal then writes a kind of script (either mentally or literally) and goes by that script. I can't imagine that the original premise of a criminal is to "act rationally" if they are in fact planning a crime, but beyond that, the Criminal is given a lot of credit for reasoning. What time of day? Which place to target? Who is capable of self-defense and who is not? Where to dispose of evidence. What to bring in the kill kit. Etc.

So it's always been plausible that Kohberger did leave an open zipping duffel right by his car, was already undressing as he ran out the door. Threw his shoes into the bag, then his outerwear and mask, and finally, that used pair of gloves. He likely would have practiced these various parts of the script, just like an actor.

Bottom line for RCT: Individuals commit crimes, using their own minds and brains. They have a self-interested goal (that they consider rational). Behavior is freely chosen. Choice is used to gain maximum personal pleasure in the commission of the crime.

From a LE perspective, dealing with such an individual effectively (according to the theory's proponents) means the State must deal out swift, severe and certain punishment (so that the criminal mind has to take that into account and the plans get more and more difficult to make). I found a good .pdf on it.

https://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/document?repid=rep1&type=pdf&doi=8d1b66b6d20c54e1f38be1c6e79bf0c32c4ab331

Oddly, we know that this doesn't exactly work in economics (people buy things they can't afford and get into issues with repossession or debt collection all the time, obviously). We know that many compulsions and addictions cause non-rational behavior. Even in something as apparently rational as buying a car, people can let feelings overwhelm them.

IMO.

think this might work better for organized crime and crimes with a purely economic motive- pro theives, smugglers, etc.

 

[Chloegirl]

Inside Idaho Murder Suspect's Alleged Chat Room Posts: I Can Do 'Whatever I Want with Little Remorse'

"Nothing I do is enjoyable. I am blank, I have no opinion, I have no emotion, I have nothing," Bryan Kohberger, the suspect in the Idaho murders, allegedly wrote

people.com

"I always feel as if I am not there, completely depersonalized," the post reads, followed by a list of symptoms the user was allegedly experiencing, including lack of comprehension, depression, suicidal thoughts, "Crazy thoughts," "Delusions of Grandeur," "poor social skills" and "NO EMOTION."


The last line of the post reads: "When I get home, I am mean to my family. This started when VS did. I felt no emotion and along with the depersonalization,

I can say and do whatever I want with little remorse… everyone hates me pretty much I am an a-----e."

My question is actually more technological but related to sort of eavesdropping. If you don't have personal feelings and you want to understand people who are other, is there a way technologically to eavesdrop on their snapchats? You get to be in their head at the exact time they are feeling. No?! Could he have used his phone or another to access other people's information this way. Could he have seen all the snapchats blow up between the social groups after the events? Pure speculation here because I don't understand the technology.

 

[Chloegirl]

It was all publicly available and downloadable by anyone, when his arrest was first known. I assume LE had already downloaded it. It's also possible that TapATalk has been willingly cooperative. I think they did take his posts down since then haven't checked.

JMO.

Yeah that would be like using your juvenile history against you sort of frowned upon, probably not allowed as evidence due to timing. But what do I know. I'm Just speculating.

 

[I'm Nobody]

His Prof (Prof B at DeSales) said he was into Rational Choice Theory and Script Theory. RCT was, I believe, the invention of economists (who do not use their models to study behavior, per se - but to factor things into various economic models to try and figure out what's going on).

Anyway, RTC theory in criminology is controversial and claims that a good number of criminals are not impulsive nor insane nor agitated. They carefully and rationally plan out how to evade risk, have a sort of diagram in their mind as to how to deal with various things that could get them caught. Script Theory based on RCT would say that the criminal then writes a kind of script (either mentally or literally) and goes by that script. I can't imagine that the original premise of a criminal is to "act rationally" if they are in fact planning a crime, but beyond that, the Criminal is given a lot of credit for reasoning. What time of day? Which place to target? Who is capable of self-defense and who is not? Where to dispose of evidence. What to bring in the kill kit. Etc.

So it's always been plausible that Kohberger did leave an open zipping duffel right by his car, was already undressing as he ran out the door. Threw his shoes into the bag, then his outerwear and mask, and finally, that used pair of gloves. He likely would have practiced these various parts of the script, just like an actor.

Bottom line for RCT: Individuals commit crimes, using their own minds and brains. They have a self-interested goal (that they consider rational). Behavior is freely chosen. Choice is used to gain maximum personal pleasure in the commission of the crime.

From a LE perspective, dealing with such an individual effectively (according to the theory's proponents) means the State must deal out swift, severe and certain punishment (so that the criminal mind has to take that into account and the plans get more and more difficult to make). I found a good .pdf on it.

https://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/document?repid=rep1&type=pdf&doi=8d1b66b6d20c54e1f38be1c6e79bf0c32c4ab331

Oddly, we know that this doesn't exactly work in economics (people buy things they can't afford and get into issues with repossession or debt collection all the time, obviously). We know that many compulsions and addictions cause non-rational behavior. Even in something as apparently rational as buying a car, people can let feelings overwhelm them.

IMO.

Thank you for the fabulous explanation.
So this "script" becomes an important part of premeditation and intent?

Of course prosecution has to prove it exists.
JMO

 

[Cool Cats]

His Prof (Prof B at DeSales) said he was into Rational Choice Theory and Script Theory. RCT was, I believe, the invention of economists (who do not use their models to study behavior, per se - but to factor things into various economic models to try and figure out what's going on).

Anyway, RTC theory in criminology is controversial and claims that a good number of criminals are not impulsive nor insane nor agitated. They carefully and rationally plan out how to evade risk, have a sort of diagram in their mind as to how to deal with various things that could get them caught. Script Theory based on RCT would say that the criminal then writes a kind of script (either mentally or literally) and goes by that script. I can't imagine that the original premise of a criminal is to "act rationally" if they are in fact planning a crime, but beyond that, the Criminal is given a lot of credit for reasoning. What time of day? Which place to target? Who is capable of self-defense and who is not? Where to dispose of evidence. What to bring in the kill kit. Etc.

So it's always been plausible that Kohberger did leave an open zipping duffel right by his car, was already undressing as he ran out the door. Threw his shoes into the bag, then his outerwear and mask, and finally, that used pair of gloves. He likely would have practiced these various parts of the script, just like an actor.

Bottom line for RCT: Individuals commit crimes, using their own minds and brains. They have a self-interested goal (that they consider rational). Behavior is freely chosen. Choice is used to gain maximum personal pleasure in the commission of the crime.

From a LE perspective, dealing with such an individual effectively (according to the theory's proponents) means the State must deal out swift, severe and certain punishment (so that the criminal mind has to take that into account and the plans get more and more difficult to make). I found a good .pdf on it.

https://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/document?repid=rep1&type=pdf&doi=8d1b66b6d20c54e1f38be1c6e79bf0c32c4ab331

Oddly, we know that this doesn't exactly work in economics (people buy things they can't afford and get into issues with repossession or debt collection all the time, obviously). We know that many compulsions and addictions cause non-rational behavior. Even in something as apparently rational as buying a car, people can let feelings overwhelm them.

IMO.

Informative, as always! Thanks.

One reason this crime is so (fill in blank) is because it is actually different, it is in my opinion more of a stranger on stranger.

In most murders, even multiple murders, the people know each other and know each other well such as family, lovers, former lovers, etc... (Sometimes in multiple murders a person is killed just for being in the wrong place wrong time like I think Ethan.)

Especially when it comes to planning ahead, most planned murders like this are not stranger on stranger and it raises hair on the back of our heads.

The Truth About Stranger Homicide, and Who's Really at Risk

Being murdered by a stranger is the stuff of nightmares. Just how common are stranger homicides, and are the streets truly unsafe for women, or for men?

www.psychologytoday.com

• Stranger homicide is extremely rare.
• Young men are more at risk than women of being murdered by a stranger.
• Women are far more likely to be murdered by man known to them—a family member, friend or intimate partner—than a stranger.

Violent Crime by Strangers and Nonstrangers | Office of Justice Programs

www.ojp.gov

Among violent crimes, robbery was most likely and homicide was least likely to be committed by a stranger.

Most violent crimes by strangers (70 percent) were committed against males, while most by relatives (77 percent) were committed against females. Spouses or ex-spouses committed over half of all crimes by relatives and about two-thirds of all crimes by relatives against women.

Crimes by strangers were more often committed by two or more offenders than were crimes by nonstrangers. Stranger-to-stranger crimes more often involved a weapon but less often resulted in attack or injury than did crimes by a nonstranger.

Crimes by relatives involved attack and injury more often than did stranger or acquaintance crimes. However, of those injured, victims of stranger and acquaintance crimes were more likely to require medical attention than victims of crimes by relatives.

 

[10ofRods]

Thank you for the fabulous explanation.
So this "script" becomes an important part of premeditation and intent?


JMO

Yes - the script would absolutely be the very core of premeditation. Making branching diagrams, thinking through all the "what-if's." Naturally if Kohberger really hasn't committed major crimes before and really hasn't a lot of real world work or school experience, he might not be able to think that maybe a neighbor's cat would trigger a camera or that there'd be an extra person (a man) in the house. If he had only one intended target, he might have thought through what to do if he encountered someone else in the house (kill them appears to be the answer). OTOH, it's possible he was completely unprepared to kill 4 people and departed from his script.

But the parts about where to park and where to drive afterwards were likely considered to be rationally solved by BK. How he managed to "script" the use of his phone remains puzzling. Did he forget to turn it off before he left his apartment? Why did he not have a burner phone? (Ultimately could be traced to him but would have been much harder/would have taken longer). I still think dropping the sheath was completely unplanned and unscripted (and he didn't know he'd done it until later).

imo

 

[Slamalam]

I’m not asking this to argue for or against this point. Just wondering: For those who think BK did not act alone, why haven’t we heard about more arrests- why hasn’t he spoken up? Do you think that could be the “personal safety” (I forget the exact wording) risk mentioned in the warrants?

 

[Balthazar]

New ones...

Snapchat 3.30.23 for 4 victims & roommates
for period 6.23.22-8.1.22

https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/case/CR29-22-2805/053123%20Order%20to%20Seal%20%20Redact%20-%20Snap%20Inc.pdf

Original Snapchat for 3 victimes & roommates (assuming based on this latest warrant): redacted 11.21.22
for period 8.1.22-11.19.22

https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/case/CR29-22-2805/030723%20Order%20to%20Seal%20%20Redact%20-%20Snap%20Inc%20Snapchat%201.pdf

Original Snapchat for Maddie: redacted 11.21.22
for period 8.1.22-11.19.22

https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/case/CR29-22-2805/030723%20Order%20to%20Seal%20%20Redact%20-%20Snap%20Inc%20Snapchat.pdf

Interesting, too, because this shows that they got new info & PC to go looking. They didn't just get this because they were curious - if that were the case, they'd have gotten them when they got the original ones.
So what changed?
LE had to have a reason and it's in the affidavit that the court just refuses to share with me

What do you make of the reasons to seal #1 and #2? What on earth did they put on snapchat that is so shocking AND could endanger someone's life?

 

[10ofRods]

Informative, as always! thanks.

One reason this crime is so (fill in blank) is because it is actually different, it is in my opinion more of a stranger on stranger.

In most murders, even multiple murders, the people know each other and know each other well such as family, lovers, former lovers, etc... (Sometimes in multiple murders a person is killed just for being in the wrong place wrong time like I think Ethan.)

Especially when it comes to planning ahead, most planned murders like this are not stranger on stranger and it raises hair on the back of our heads.

The Truth About Stranger Homicide, and Who's Really at Risk

Being murdered by a stranger is the stuff of nightmares. Just how common are stranger homicides, and are the streets truly unsafe for women, or for men?

www.psychologytoday.com

• Stranger homicide is extremely rare.
• Young men are more at risk than women of being murdered by a stranger.
• Women are far more likely to be murdered by man known to them—a family member, friend or intimate partner—than a stranger.

Violent Crime by Strangers and Nonstrangers | Office of Justice Programs

www.ojp.gov

Among violent crimes, robbery was most likely and homicide was least likely to be committed by a stranger.

Most violent crimes by strangers (70 percent) were committed against males, while most by relatives (77 percent) were committed against females. Spouses or ex-spouses committed over half of all crimes by relatives and about two-thirds of all crimes by relatives against women.

Crimes by strangers were more often committed by two or more offenders than were crimes by nonstrangers. Stranger-to-stranger crimes more often involved a weapon but less often resulted in attack or injury than did crimes by a nonstranger.

Crimes by relatives involved attack and injury more often than did stranger or acquaintance crimes. However, of those injured, victims of stranger and acquaintance crimes were more likely to require medical attention than victims of crimes by relatives.

So...I think Kohberger himself knew all this and I think he figured that people close to the victims would be the obvious suspects (and they were under suspicion: KG's boyfriend; people at KG's boyfriend's nearby house; everyone at Sigma Chi but especially 1-2 people who knew XK and KG; MM's boyfriend; random women at two sororities...LE went everywhere looking for clues and information and the internet went wild with speculation).

BK could have known that KG had broken up with her longterm boyfriend, thereby making it a good time to strike. If he was following KG/MM on instagram, he'd have known about the new car and that KG was there that weekend (esp. if he was also watching the Grub Truck feed as a daily thing - iow, stalkerish behavior). He may have had more than one set of people on his list of possible victims. So he wants to commit mass murder (or thinks of himself as a budding serial killer) and he chooses someplace not near his own apartment; he chooses women who many people knew and regarded as beautiful and popular - so that there could be lots of reasons a semi-stranger or stranger would attack; he chooses a house that is a "fish bowl" (so that LE has to reckon with many possible scenarios). Etc.

All the search warrants make me think there's going to be more evidence of stalker-like behavior (which shows he couldn't adhere to his own script or theories). OTOH, what if he had invented other identities to try and hide his identity while following them on Tinder or SnapChat? He could have also used public computers at WSU (very hard to trace and figure out) for some of this, thinking he was really clever. What if there are accounts that ultimate trace back to the library at WSU? I hope the library has longterm storage of video from cameras anywhere there are public computers - but I bet they don't.

On the dark side: sometimes I wonder if he did have more surveillance of 1122 King Road (other trips than the ones known by the original geo-fence warrant - which was just one companies set of towers; looks like ATT shares towers with another carrier in Moscow - but there is likely more data from other towers and masts that has been gotten by now, not necessarily all via warrant or subpoena). Doesn't a burner phone of some kind seem likely? But if he had one, why didn't he leave his main phone at home? Too many slip-ups (hence the unpopularity of RTC for many criminologists).

IMO.

 

[Cool Cats]

What do you make of the reasons to seal #1 and #2? What on earth did they put on snapchat that is so shocking AND could endanger someone's life?

Identity and incriminating online statements....

One reason for the possibility of someone's safety (possible life) being endangered is because the information being disclosed can lead to their identity.

It can be a total nightmare to have your identity disclosed in a notorious murder investigation.

Another reason is because there will be online conversations that BK had with others and they could be embarrassing to someone who says something personal to him. Could make someone look bad.

Really bad. Negative remarks against women or a victim for example. Incriminating statements that would enrage others seeing them.

All kinds of incriminating things people say online. Look at all the racist remarks getting people in trouble and enraging the public.

2 Cents

 

[Balthazar]

I’ve never thought he said anything about being exonerated; to me that statement sounded like boilerplate verbiage from a defense attny. ICBW JMO

His PA attorney did say BK told him that. Obviously LaBar couldn't discuss the ID case with BK, but BK did say he was eager to exonerated. : ""He said he was eager to be exonerated, which I believed him to mean that he believed he was innocent," LaBar said. "I wasn't judging the case at that point in time. I didn't have the affidavit of probable cause, I knew none of the facts and I didn't ask Bryan about any of the facts or circumstances surrounding the case either.""

Bryan Kohberger's former attorney had "unique" experience with him

On Wednesday, the search warrant for Kohberger's apartment near Washington State University was unsealed.

www.newsweek.com

 

[Balthazar]

Snipped for focus

Reasons for sealing: I look at both the prosecution motion reasons and then the Judges order reasons. Many times the judge whittles it down, sometimes she accepts all reasons in the motion. This is the hardest part to decipher, because the judge sometimes comes back later with another extension that changes the reasons a little bit. With so many warrants, it is hard to keep track.

For sealed google: the latest reasons

Originally November 30/12-1 (MM signed second date)
Latest seal 3/8:

View attachment 426137

Originally Feb 23/25
Latest seal 3/24:

View attachment 426138

Originally Feb 23/25
Latest seal 3/24
View attachment 426139

On the more recent docs, the 2nd reason for sealing is that it might jeopardize someone's life. What on earth have they found?

 

[schooling]

I pulled my earlier ATT post because it had a factual error in it.

But essentially, though LE will not be able to collect IMEI from these web app and services. They will be able to collect http header data and analytics provided to said apps and services by Google and Apple.

This data includes the operating system of the mobile device, the version it’s on, screen resolution and the web browser utilized. From that they can deduce make and model. There’s also a possibility that LE found the prepaid devices through information returned in previous warrants that contained the info above.

With modern “fingerprinting” methods utilizing software (cookies), hardware (GPU), behavioral (typing patterns) it really is difficult to move across sites with two different devices and not have them detected.

Maintaining different personas online in 2023 is close to impossible. Regardless of what your VPN seller tells you or the TOR Wikipedia article says.

 

[Balthazar]

ICBW but this has “drunk party boys prank”written all over it. JMO

No, that incident is much more similar to stalking but also has a component of car theft car since the fuse box was open. I'm not sure which they were actually trying to do. They opened the fuse box to try to steal the car AND they spent a lot more time on the stalking type activities specifically taking her panties out of the suitcase and putting them in the door pocket cupholder. They also packed up everything else in the car into the suitcase and put the suitcase in the road and left the footprint on the driver seat. If you are going to steal the car, there would be no reason to pack up the suitcase and leave panties in the door pocket and leave your footprint on the driver's seat as the owner would not see them if the car were stolen. The reason for doing those stalking type activities is to show you have control over the woman's stuff and terrorize her a little. Did they do the stalking stuff to punish her because they could't steal her car? Maybe.