A rather "personal" question about female part

[voynich]

I wasn't asking you dignify anything with a reply, Voynich. I was merely telling you that you are giving me the heebeejeebees as you did on the thread where you suggested that someone make a model vagina. However, you should do as you think best. I will add that a discussion of menstruation doesn't by definition involve pictures of vaginas so I think you should have put a warning on the thread as we do when we show autopsy photos but,again, you must do as you think best.

Separately, I have e mailed the bits of the autopsy which relate to JBR's genitals to a very senior gynaecologist for his impressions. He is actually rather high-profile within the NHS so I can't post his name here but I will e mail Dave his credentials so that he can confirm the guy's gravitas on these matters.

He is going to do a full summary of his thoughts at some point this week but his initial thought is that there is no doubt whatsoever that he would at least have investigated this as being sexual abuse had a child presented in his surgery with this damage to her vagina. He couldn't say conclusively without seeing the photos but would be compelled by law to report it had the child come into his surgery. This is obviously UK stuff but I really can't think that customs vary much from country to country in terms of protocol for investigating suspected child abuse.

More later.

What do you think "A rather "personal" question about female part" "If discussion of menstruation offends you..." taken together implies?

If Deedee wants to claim that the hymen is near the cervix, obviously pictures are in order. That was her reply to mine.

YOu're certainly taking that discussion out of context as I also suggested using ANIMALS and/or mechanical models to emulate whether the head blow or strangulation came first, and whether it is even possible for an adult man to insert his fingers into a young woman without breaking her hymen.

Deedee did make her erroenous claims about the location of the hymen and JB not being able to reach it with her own fingers. You allowed that claim to stand. t.

Of course it might require a further investigation, had it been done prior to her murder, and its entirely possible that yes indeed JR was sexually abuse her daughter.

I'm interested in his or her opinion.

 

[BBB167893]

To the unitiated, the level of redness, soreness and inflamation that occurs in my throat is dramatic. My normally pink mucous membranes becomes inflamed, raw, red, engorged and very painful.

How much of that injury could be explained by what happened that night, and how much of it from previous say irritation or PR douching, "exploring" etc.

Good question. I guess it's up to the autopsy report.

 

[BBB167893]

Stop referring to tabloid-employed experts and people other than the coroner who have nothing to offer. LE employed experts, all of whom know more about paediatric gynaecology than Meyer. You wouldn't have objected to them on the grounds that they weren't at the autopsy if they disagreed with the conclusions made by Meyer about 'chronic' and 'erosion' injuries so don't be such a hypocrite. You are also as aware as anyone that Jane Harmer heard the coroner refer to digital penetration and you are also as aware as anyone about JBR's inappropriate beahviour. This didn't have to be caused by a parent but because an unknown intruder couldn't have done it, you start making stupid statements about what 'chronic' and 'erosion' mean.

As for the doctor I contacted. He a) knows nothing about the JBR case and b) was given the excerpts of the autopsy without any additional information, He didn't know or care that the victim was JBR. He has international repute in his field and works at the highest level of government on various medical issues. He is an expert whose neutrality is beyond question. He didn't say that he felt that JBR had been abused. He said that protocol would mean that the possibility would have to be investigated. He was going to explain the injuries at greater length and tell us what may have caused them. When he does, I advise you not to read them because, even if they support your notions, his words are meaningless since he wasn't at the autopsy.

Finally, he made an interesting comment that the autopsy was clearly not very recent because, in his experience, coroners are generally being far more specific about what they mean.

Way to slug it out, Sophie!

 

[voynich]

Way to slug it out, Sophie!

Those autopsy photos though includes the very recent trauma that occurred to her. Obviously if he is presented an anonymous photo of a vagina that sustained recent physical trauma, hopefully he would suspect sexual abuse.

 

[DeeDee249]

What do you think "A rather "personal" question about female part" "If discussion of menstruation offends you..." taken together implies?

If Deedee wants to claim that the hymen is near the cervix, obviously pictures are in order. That was her reply to mine.

YOu're certainly taking that discussion out of context as I also suggested using ANIMALS and/or mechanical models to emulate whether the head blow or strangulation came first, and whether it is even possible for an adult man to insert his fingers into a young woman without breaking her hymen.

Deedee did make her erroenous claims about the location of the hymen and JB not being able to reach it with her own fingers. You allowed that claim to stand. t.

Of course it might require a further investigation, had it been done prior to her murder, and its entirely possible that yes indeed JR was sexually abuse her daughter.

I'm interested in his or her opinion.

I am POSITIVE I never asked for pictures of your (or anyone elses') vagina- assuming you have one. THis is the Internet, so as you pointed out, anyone's gender is speculation. So if that is what you are suggesting, you are wildly inappropriate for this forum.

 

[voynich]

Originally Posted by DeeDee249
But to suggest that JB eroded her own hymen through masturbation is particularly vile, as well as being impossible. Her fingers would not reach her hymen.
I've said this before, but you choose to ignore it. The hymen is NOT near the opening of the vagina and no where near the clitoris, where pleasure is most felt.


But I don't think that a 6-year old would reach it with her fingers.


I am POSITIVE I never asked for pictures of your (or anyone elses') vagina- assuming you have one. THis is the Internet, so as you pointed out, anyone's gender is speculation. So if that is what you are suggesting, you are wildly inappropriate for this forum.

Before I had children, I remember a comedian saying, "As the father of 3 girls, I underestimated the number of times I would have to say, 'don't put that in your vagina'"

I now have two little girls (3 and 7.5). I have one child who loves to stick things in her vagina. Suckers, fingers, etc. I don't know if it enough to actually cause damage to her hymen, but it is possible.

My other daughter has many of the same isses JB had, including bedwetting, not liking to bathe, and poor wiping skills. Coincidentally, she has also participated in pageants. The combination of these factors often makes her itchy "down there". I could see her itching herself vigorously enough to cause some damage.'' In addition, Patsy may have had to touch her to apply creme (like vagasil or similar product).

So to me, the hymen erosion does not offer evidence of IDI or RDI.

And for the record, if someone said one of my daughters were sexually abused, I would be extremely defensive also.

i have no idea what you are talking about

but since you claim the hymen is near the cervix, and is normally completely sealed so as to not allow any bacteria into the uterus, and not anywhere near the entrance of the vagina, I'd suggest you look here

Did I post any pictures of real vaginas? Sophie objected to medical anatomical illustrations of the hymen given that she herself promotes misconceptions of female anatomy.

Deedee you and Sophie have stated "
But to suggest that JB eroded her own hymen through masturbation is particularly vile, as well as being impossible. Her fingers would not reach her hymen.
I've said this before, but you choose to ignore it. The hymen is NOT near the opening of the vagina "

hence pictures, i.e medical illustrations of where the hymen is located are in order.

http://www.healthystrokes.com/hymengallery.html

Sophie and Deedee are disseminating completely incorrect mis-information about the hymen and a girl's ability to reach it with her own fingers as well as how common girls will insert things into their own vaginas

I don't see how Sophie can complain since I state "A rather "personal" question about female part" and your reply was that the hymen was NOT located near the entrance of the vagina.

I have provided medically accurate information and I am getting this bull****


My patience is wearing thin. I'm begining to feel that Superdave's dark side welling up.

Seriously I'm getting pissed off.

 

[DeeDee249]

Super Dave doesn't have a Dark Side....does he?

 

[voynich]

Super Dave doesn't have a Dark Side....does he?

He's a SITH LORD. And, honestly, I'm kinda Sith myself. Maybe I'm RS(i)TH. or RSTH

 

[DeeDee249]

I'm more of an Ewok myself....but an Ewok with major anger issues.

 

[Ravyn]

Well actually with what I'm seeing here...That if JonBenet touched herself then cynic could very well be right with the DNA that was found in JonBenet's panties...And even IDI or RDI can't argue that JonBenet didn't touch her parents that night...And since this thread I been researching and the old myth was that the hymen couldn't be reach but as in DNA and everything else we came along way with technolgy....

 

[BBB167893]

Not even my own loved ones can understand the depths of my darkness.

 

[Sophie]

Hello all. I'm in a total flap but will post more fully this evening. Dr has replied to the autopsy questions and I'll post it later (currently at work and don't really want to use work pc for such a topic) but one thing that he does talk about are how tiny children's fingers often are and how they could easily masturbate and cause no damage to the hymen and that also the hymen has elasticity - limited elasticity but elasticity nonetheless so you can't assume that even larger fingers would necessarily damage the hymen. He mentions women who have had intercourse and have most of their hymen intact and girls who use 'light' tampons (mini ones for lighter flows) quite often showing no discernible damage to the hymen. IOW, it's more than a grey area.

Anyway, more later.

 

[Tadpole12]

Before I had children, I remember a comedian saying, "As the father of 3 girls, I underestimated the number of times I would have to say, 'don't put that in your vagina'"

I now have two little girls (3 and 7.5). I have one child who loves to stick things in her vagina. Suckers, fingers, etc. I don't know if it enough to actually cause damage to her hymen, but it is possible.

My other daughter has many of the same isses JB had, including bedwetting, not liking to bathe, and poor wiping skills. Coincidentally, she has also participated in pageants. The combination of these factors often makes her itchy "down there". I could see her itching herself vigorously enough to cause some damage.'' In addition, Patsy may have had to touch her to apply creme (like vagasil or similar product).

So to me, the hymen erosion does not offer evidence of IDI or RDI.

And for the record, if someone said one of my daughters were sexually abused, I would be extremely defensive also.

Hi KariKae.

I would be interested to hear what your pediatricians input was re this behaviour.

 

[Linda7NJ]

RDI can discuss JBR's exact sexual anatomical characteristics ad nauseum. This is in support of an overblown repetitive claim of an incestuous or abusive sexual relationship between an adult male father and his 6 year old daughter. This relationship carried obsessively here and on supermarket shelves for years, when LE seems to fully ignore it.

Why does LE fully ignore it (I probably need to get out my violin again.)?

But if voinich brings it up its wierd? Gives the heebeejeebee's? Why is the discussion open season for RDI but not appropriate for IDI? Is this another attempt to use ridicule as a means of repressng IDI?

Third party doctors who never attended JBR in life or death, who are paid for by tabloids, or are not part of the official investigation, offer very little. What was needed to support the claim of prior abuse was specific concerns documented way back then by the doctors who mattered. Not third party armchair Monday morning experts.

I've never ruled out Patsy

 

[BBB167893]

There were a few things I wished to say, but I have yet to find a way to do it that will not dirty us all more than we already have been.

I am truly at the depth of the darkness with no visible way out.

 

[DeeDee249]

There were a few things I wished to say, but I have yet to find a way to do it that will not dirty us all more than we already have been.

I am truly at the depth of the darkness with no visible way out.

There is always a way out. You will find it.

 

[BBB167893]

There is always a way out. You will find it.

Here's my best shot:

I could be wrong, and I hope he'll correct me if I am, but voynich seemed to be implying that an adult could not have done what was done even one time without causing far more damage and that a child would not tolerate it. Well, I've run across that notion before (not limited to IDIs, I'll have you know). Unfortunately, as I tried to point out, both of those phenomena are the RULE, not the exception. I think you have to remember that there are reasons why children make such good victims, and I posted those reasons in my reply. As I state in the book, in this particular case, JB was an even more ideal victim than most because she was actively trained to obey adults.

 

[Oriah]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hymen

The hymen is a fold of mucous membrane that surrounds or partially covers the external vaginal opening. It forms part of the vulva, or external genitalia.[1][2][3] Despite this, it is not possible to confirm that a woman is a virgin by examining her hymen.[2][3] In cases of suspected rape or sexual abuse, a detailed examination of the hymen may be carried out; but the condition of the hymen alone is often inconclusive or open to misinterpretation, especially if the patient has reached puberty.[1] In children, although a common appearance of the hymen is crescent-shaped, many variations are possible.[1]

Hymenal resorption

Past neonatal stage, the diameter of the hymenal opening (measured within the hymenal ring) has been proposed to be approximately 1 mm for each year of age.[7] In children, to make this measurement, a doctor may place a Foley catheter into the vagina and inflate the balloon behind the hymen to stretch the hymenal margin and allow for a better examination. In the normal course of life, the hymenal opening can also be enlarged by tampon use, pelvic examinations with a speculum, regular physical activity, or sexual intercourse.[1] Once a girl reaches puberty, the hymen tends to become so elastic that it is not possible to determine whether a woman uses tampons or not by examining a hymen. In one survey, only 43% of women reported bleeding the first time they had sex, indicating that the vagina of a majority of women is sufficiently opened.[1][5]

The hymen is most apparent in young girls: At this time, their hymen is thin and less likely to be redundant, that is to protrude or fold over on itself.[8] In instances of suspected child abuse, doctors use the clock face system to describe the hymenal opening. The 12 o'clock position is below the urethra, and 6 o'clock is towards the anus, with the patient lying on her back.[9]


By the time a girl reaches school-age, this hormonal influence has stopped and the hymen becomes thin, smooth, delicate, and almost translucent. It is also very sensitive to touch; a physician who must to swab the area would avoid the hymen and swab the outer vulval vestibule instead.[5]

Prepubescent girls' hymenal opening comes in many shapes, depending on hormonal and activity level, the most common being crescentic (posterior rim): no tissue at the 12 o'clock position; crescent-shaped band of tissue from 1–2 to 10–11 o'clock, at its widest around 6 o'clock. From puberty onwards, depending on estrogen and activity levels, the hymenal tissue may be thicker, and the opening is often fimbriated or erratically shaped.[6]



Cribriform, or microperforate: sometimes confused for imperforate, the hymenal opening appears to be nonexistent, but has, under close examination, small openings.


This is all Greek to me.

Hmmm. Not greek to me at all, but glad you posted it. Thank you.

 

[Oriah]

Here's my best shot:

I could be wrong, and I hope he'll correct me if I am, but voynich seemed to be implying that an adult could not have done what was done even one time without causing far more damage and that a child would not tolerate it. Well, I've run across that notion before (not limited to IDIs, I'll have you know). Unfortunately, as I tried to point out, both of those phenomena are the RULE, not the exception. I think you have to remember that there are reasons why children make such good victims, and I posted those reasons in my reply. As I state in the book, in this particular case, JB was an even more ideal victim than most because she was actively trained to obey adults.

Unfortunately, I agree. Caution for any who may feel this is graphic:

Some people seem to believe that sexual abuse of a child involves a tremendous amount of obvious physical trauma. This is not the case. Some children are abused in a variety of different ways, using objects that will show physical signs only upon exam or autopsy. WSers- think of it as an autopsy on a child who has just died from a traumatic head injury, but then multiple healed fractures appear on the initial xray, and the doc is :waitasec:

There are an alarming number of ways and means that children are subjected to sexual abuse- including but not limited to: other children, adults being extremely cautious, and other situations that would not show symptoms unless very carefully examined.

What this means, IMO, is that there is a very unlikely chance that there was not something repeatedly and over an extended period of time inserted into JB's vagina that was small enough to cause friction damage, but not actual physical trauma.

I hate even typing that, but that's what I understand the reports to be.

 

[voynich]

RDI can discuss JBR's exact sexual anatomical characteristics ad nauseum. This is in support of an overblown repetitive claim of an incestuous or abusive sexual relationship between an adult male father and his 6 year old daughter. This relationship carried obsessively here and on supermarket shelves for years, when LE seems to fully ignore it.

Why does LE fully ignore it (I probably need to get out my violin again.)?

But if voinich brings it up its wierd? Gives the heebeejeebee's? Why is the discussion open season for RDI but not appropriate for IDI? Is this another attempt to use ridicule as a means of repressng IDI?

Third party doctors who never attended JBR in life or death, who are paid for by tabloids, or are not part of the official investigation, offer very little. What was needed to support the claim of prior abuse was specific concerns documented way back then by the doctors who mattered. Not third party armchair Monday morning experts.

Well exactly. :banghead:

Here's my best shot:

I could be wrong, and I hope he'll correct me if I am, but voynich seemed to be implying that an adult could not have done what was done even one time without causing far more damage and that a child would not tolerate it. Well, I've run across that notion before (not limited to IDIs, I'll have you know). Unfortunately, as I tried to point out, both of those phenomena are the RULE, not the exception. I think you have to remember that there are reasons why children make such good victims, and I posted those reasons in my reply. As I state in the book, in this particular case, JB was an even more ideal victim than most because she was actively trained to obey adults.

"I have a bad feeling about this"

Certain posters, NOT YOU, made remarks that offended me so I'm not going to say anything. :furious: