Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #179

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This is why i think they might rely more on Click and not try to introduce the Elvis stuff directly. Click can play the role of solid officer who has stood up because he believes his investigation was never run to ground. He isn't saying so much that Elvis and co did it, but that they weren't eliminated as a reasonable possibility.

IMO the more you get into trying to prove BH and co were all in on it, when he has an alibi, the more you risk the jury thinking the case against RA is much stronger than the one against BH - which seems to be some facebook posts???
The only thing I heard Click say he did was run the equipment for recording interviews for Ferency and Murphy. Didn't he even correct himself at least a couple times when he said, "we" or "us" to "them"? I'm wondering how little he was involved in the investigation?
 
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The court would have to agree to admitting the testimony of those witnesses. Since Elvis is not the one on trial, it is not automatic that his sisters will be allowed to testify. If the prosecution has solid evidence to clear him, those witnesses will not be allowed to testify.

The same situation happened in the McStay family murder trial. The defense hung its hat upon blaming another guy for the murders. But the court did not allow much of that extraneous testimony because there was a solid alibi for the SODDI.
Exactly, LE investigated EF and dismissed him as a POI. I doubt very seriously that the 'sisters' will be allowed to testify. If the Court admitted testimony from every POI they cleared, it would be a 9 month trial.

Obviously his DNA (spit) was not found on one of the girls, or EF would be sitting behind bars and the case would have been solved 7 years ago making LE the heroes. Unless of course the CSI and labs were conspiring with LE, ISP and the FBI way back in 2017 in a massive coverup. Might make for a good novel or movie plot, but the odds of this happening in real life are minuscule, and by that, I mean non existent in reality.

I found none of the testimony of Click compelling, I think he had a strong desire wanting to continue to be part of the investigation and inserting himself. EF's sisters, BH's girlfriend at the time, all of that was a big nothing burger to me. I don't believe we'll see any of that come into testimony.

JMO
 
Exactly, LE investigated EF and dismissed him as a POI. I doubt very seriously that the 'sisters' will be allowed to testify. If the Court admitted testimony from every POI they cleared, it would be a 9 month trial.

Obviously his DNA (spit) was not found on one of the girls, or EF would be sitting behind bars and the case would have been solved 7 years ago making LE the heroes. Unless of course the CSI and labs were conspiring with LE, ISP and the FBI way back in 2017 in a massive coverup. Might make for a good novel or movie plot, but the odds of this happening in real life are minuscule, and by that, I mean non existent in reality.

According to Click, EF said the spit thing directly to law enforcement. So I agree it is hard to believe this was a serious confession that was ignored. I am very suspicious of these kinds of claims since the McStay case where defence said the SODDI guy was not investigated, then at trial all the investigative steps were revealed. It's a dangerous gambit which harmed their case when it collapsed.

I found none of the testimony of Click compelling, I think he had a strong desire wanting to continue to be part of the investigation and inserting himself. EF's sisters, BH's girlfriend at the time, all of that was a big nothing burger to me. I don't believe we'll see any of that come into testimony.

JMO

I think Click is a good witness as far as he goes, but I agree trying to lead these witnesses is problematic. Especially a focus on BH who has a verified alibi could make RA like guilty by comparison. There is far more evidence against RA than against BH.
 
Could someone bear with me on this? I know this question has probably been trodden over already, but why'd BG leave that phone there? I like many try to say well, he just didn't see them recording. I mean, he was close enough, the recording was long enough where I'd swear he had to have been aware of that phone in some kind of use. I don't know if there's signal on the bridge, I'd assume yes. That means he had to have feared a 911 call, he would even probably have checked the phone for it. So I think he actually may even have had heightened awareness of the phone. Why leave it there?? Possible answers (?):

-He really didn't see them recording
-He did see, but the phone was somehow lost and he couldn't find it before he had to vacate the scene
-He did see, but he figured he'd concealed his identity well enough where it didn't matter
-He did see but was more afraid of handling the phone than having LE view it, ie "took his chances"
-BG did see but was on drugs, too much adrenaline pumping, etc.
-He did see; there were multiple parties involved; he left the scene before another party to the crime left, maybe BG couldn't find the phone or one of the others took it; the other party disliked BG and left the phone for LE to find
-He did see but was taking the girls to other parties & BG had no idea the girls were going to be killed; the other parties had demanded his phone before BG left; other parties then killed the girls and left the phone so BG would be captured by LE
-He did see, but BG is unbalanced and wanted to be caught
-He did see, is unbalanced, and figured he could somehow "explain away" any resemblance he as a suspect would have to "BG"
-He did see, but BG hates LE and enjoyed the idea of leaving info almost as a "taunt" to them
-He did see but in the commission of the crimes somehow either came close or thought he was coming close to being discovered while still at the CS/"in a hurry"
-He did see, but had a phone himself and knew there was no signal; the only thing he was really afraid of was a 911 call
-He did see, attempted to damage the phone (unbeknownst to us) and LE was still able to extract the data

If multiple parties involved, leaning towards one of them leaving it there to get BG captured. But if just BG?? Like a vicious murderer/SK that hates LE? I'm thinking he had to have seen that phone in use, but maybe not??
 
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Could someone bear with me on this? I know this question has probably been trodden over already, but why'd BG leave that phone there? I like many try to say well, he just didn't see them recording. I mean, he was close enough, the recording was long enough where I'd swear he had to have been aware of that phone in some kind of use. I don't know if there's signal on the bridge, I'd assume yes. That means he had to have feared a 911 call, he would even probably have checked the phone for it. So I think he actually may even have had heightened awareness of the phone. Why leave it there?? Possible answers (?):

-He really didn't see them recording
-He did see, but the phone was somehow lost and he couldn't find it before he had to vacate the scene
-He did see, but he figured he'd concealed his identity well enough where it didn't matter
-He did see but was more afraid of handling the phone than having LE view it, ie "took his chances"
-BG did see but was on drugs, too much adrenaline pumping, etc.
-He did see; there were multiple parties involved; he left the scene before another party to the crime left, maybe BG couldn't find the phone or one of the others took it; the other party disliked BG and left the phone for LE to find
-He did see but was taking the girls to other parties & BG had no idea the girls were going to be killed; the other parties had demanded his phone before BG left; other parties then killed the girls and left the phone so BG would be captured by LE
-He did see, but BG is unbalanced and wanted to be caught
-He did see, is unbalanced, and figured he could somehow "explain away" any resemblance he as a suspect would have to "BG"
-He did see, but BG hates LE and enjoyed the idea of leaving info almost as a "taunt" to them
-He did see but in the commission of the crimes somehow either came close or thought he was coming close to being discovered while still at the CS/"in a hurry"
-He did see, but had a phone himself and knew there was no signal; the only thing he was really afraid of was a 911 call
-He did see, attempted to damage the phone (unbeknownst to us) and LE was still able to extract the data

If multiple parties involved, leaning towards one of them leaving it there to get BG captured. But if just BG?? Like a vicious murderer/SK that hates LE? I'm thinking he had to have seen that phone in use, but maybe not??
That is such a good question, one I've asked myself since we found out that Libby had made the video and LE had the phone.

I think RA panicked when he heard Libby's Dad calling the phone and shouting out for her when he began looking. RA may have been so immersed in the crime that he lost track of time. His adrenaline must have been through the roof and if he was unaware that she had actually filmed him, he might have thought it better to leave it than take it with him to be tracked.

JMO
 
The only thing I heard Click say he did was run the equipment for recording interviews for Ferency and Murphy. Didn't he even correct himself at least a couple times when he said, "we" or "us" to "them"? I'm wondering how little he was involved in the investigation?

The more I hear from Click the less impressed I am with what he has to say. Either the defense or perhaps Click are exaggerating his role in the investigation.
EF and his buddies are no different than countless other POIs that were looked into and determined not to be involved in the murders. What is missing for us is the prosecution’s explanation of why they moved on from this group, because the prosecution, unlike the defense, has adhered to the gag order and protective order.
At trial, we will hear the other side….finally.
 
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If so, that will be on the audio. As soon as he said "Scream..." I'd have taken him up on it and started screaming.
Maybe you would have 'wanted' to scream. But many crime victims will tell you that at the key moment when they needed and wanted to scream, for some unknown reason, they could not make a scream happen. It is like you are frozen.

It is a common experience of violent crime victims, imo.
 
Maybe you would have 'wanted' to scream. But many crime victims will tell you that at the key moment when they needed and wanted to scream, for some unknown reason, they could not make a scream happen. It is like you are frozen.

It is a common experience of violent crime victims, imo.
Totally agreed. By the time they could see the weapon, it was too late, they'd be terrified. Too late to run, too late to call, too late even to scream, I'm sure he'd have made good on his threat and would have shot both of them if any call in progress, any screaming, any running. Nobody expects that, and this vicious horror of a human being played on just that fact.
 
Maybe you would have 'wanted' to scream. But many crime victims will tell you that at the key moment when they needed and wanted to scream, for some unknown reason, they could not make a scream happen. It is like you are frozen.

It is a common experience of violent crime victims, imo.
I suspect that he grabbed Abby at the end of the bridge kept hold of her and held gun to her while he marched her down the hill. If this happened, poor Libby would not have been able to run, scream or fight while Abby was so vulnerable.
 
Thank you for sharing that! AFAIK no one here has tried to link Detective Ferency's murder to the Delphi killings beyond the fact that Click is under oath saying: It was the belief of Detective Murphy, Detective Ferency, and I that there was a strong likelihood that there was - that Brad Holder, Patrick Westfall, and Elvis Fields had a strong involvement in the murders of the girls. Now, because of his heroic sacrifice, we won't get to hear his testimony.
Source
Also an interesting comment that I wish Baldwin would have asked “Why?” about:

bbm

Q And what kind of things were you doing in terms of investigative support?

A Conducting interviews and trying to gather evidence.

Q Over the course of how long did you do that?

A Roughly three years. I began providing assistance approximately June of 2018, and ceased when Detective Ferency was shot and killed in the line of duty July 7th of 2021.
IMG_6001.jpeg

Source: Lines 8-13, page 5
 
what’s the next move for the defence do we think. another go at the bullet?

move to try to exclude the confession?

or just go to trial as is?
If they are now able to hire their 'confession expert', I'd imagine they are now going to focus on that issue as quickly as possible? Time is running out because they need to prepare for trial. May is NEXT MONTH already!
 
From last June. I wonder about Kobina E. Abruquah's new trial.


Using a new, stricter admissibility standard for scientific testimony, a split Maryland Supreme Court concluded that ballistics experts can only say whether the markings on a bullet are “consistent” or “inconsistent” with bullets fired from a particular gun.

“We do not question that firearms identification is generally reliable, and can be helpful to a jury, in identifying whether patterns and markings on ‘unknown’ bullets or cartridges are consistent or inconsistent with those on bullets or cartridges known to have been fired from a particular firearm,” Chief Justice Matthew Fader wrote in a 59-page majority opinion.

“However, based on the record here, and particularly the lack of evidence that study results are reflective of actual casework, firearms identification has not been shown to reach reliable results linking a particular unknown bullet to a particular known firearm.”

The man at the center of the case, Kobina E. Abruquah, will receive a new trial in a murder case out of Prince George’s County.
To note, this is re: SPENT bullet cartridges. The cartridge they are trying to tie to RA is an UNSPENT cartridge. Personally, I have never heard of an unspent cartridge being used as evidence in a homicide case. I tried searching to no avail, so if anyone knows of any, please link!

From the same article:

Firearms identification, which is based on the idea that individual firearms can leave a unique pattern of marks and grooves on the bullets they fire, is a relatively common form of forensic evidence.
 
What are the odds the Defense step down as by the looks it and the mess they have created they won’t be ready for trial?!

if they care for RA as much they claim their best bet at this juncture is to step down and give it to more capable lawyers.

IMO
There is a part of me that thinks all of this has been a bluff by the D and at trial they roll out…RL as SODDI.

Much as I dislike so much of D work product and behaviour, they did raise substantial funds for experts for RA. I don’t think they will step down and I feel like it’s unlikely Judge G will dismiss them now.
Maybe we will see a trial in May.
 
To note, this is re: SPENT bullet cartridges. The cartridge they are trying to tie to RA is an UNSPENT cartridge. Personally, I have never heard of an unspent cartridge being used as evidence in a homicide case. I tried searching to no avail, so if anyone knows of any, please link!

From the same article:

Firearms identification, which is based on the idea that individual firearms can leave a unique pattern of marks and grooves on the bullets they fire, is a relatively common form of forensic evidence.
I found some good information on unspent shell casing extractor markings:

<snipped>
The Extractor Marks. Another action mark, usually found in striated forms is those created by the extractor of most auto-loading or repeating firearms. The extractor is a small part sometimes resembling a hook that is used to remove a cartridge or cartridge case from the chamber of a firearm. The image below shows the extractor of a 9mm GLOCK pistol hooked into the extractor groove of a cartridge. As the slide of the pistol moves to the rear, the extractor pulls the cartridge case along with it until it is ejected from the pistol.


The Magazine Lip Marks. These markings are found near the rim of the cartridge cases and are caused by magazine lips during the loading of the cartridges into the position of firing.

Firing Pin Drag Marks. In a similar process, striated marks called firing pin drag marks can be produced. When the firing pin springs forward to strike the primer of a cartridge, it may remain slightly forward and embedded in the primer. Certain barrels (like in the GLOCK) drop down slightly as recoil is forcing the action open. The cartridge case drops with the barrel causing the nose of the protruding firing pin to drag across the primer as it leaves the firing pin impression. The below comparison image shows firing pin drag marks produced by a Colt 45 AUTO pistol.


The summary of the marks that can be found on the shell is illustrated below:



2kndJOx.jpg


SUvP7VT.jpg


Forensic Ballistics → Module 4 – Forensic Examination and Firearms Evidence - WILBER

MOO
 
I found some good information on unspent shell casing extractor markings:

<snipped>
The Extractor Marks. Another action mark, usually found in striated forms is those created by the extractor of most auto-loading or repeating firearms. The extractor is a small part sometimes resembling a hook that is used to remove a cartridge or cartridge case from the chamber of a firearm. The image below shows the extractor of a 9mm GLOCK pistol hooked into the extractor groove of a cartridge. As the slide of the pistol moves to the rear, the extractor pulls the cartridge case along with it until it is ejected from the pistol.


The Magazine Lip Marks. These markings are found near the rim of the cartridge cases and are caused by magazine lips during the loading of the cartridges into the position of firing.

Firing Pin Drag Marks. In a similar process, striated marks called firing pin drag marks can be produced. When the firing pin springs forward to strike the primer of a cartridge, it may remain slightly forward and embedded in the primer. Certain barrels (like in the GLOCK) drop down slightly as recoil is forcing the action open. The cartridge case drops with the barrel causing the nose of the protruding firing pin to drag across the primer as it leaves the firing pin impression. The below comparison image shows firing pin drag marks produced by a Colt 45 AUTO pistol.


The summary of the marks that can be found on the shell is illustrated below:



2kndJOx.jpg


SUvP7VT.jpg


Forensic Ballistics → Module 4 – Forensic Examination and Firearms Evidence - WILBER

MOO
Thanks, very interesting. We talked about this a while ago, but I wonder about the validity of the tests due to the time between 2017 and 2023. Let’s say RA fired that gun 100 times since the ejected bullet was picked up. Do we expect the extraction marks to still be exactly the same or would we expect slight differences due to wear and tear? I really think that the bullet evidence will be nullified the experts cancelling each other out.
MOO
 
There is a part of me that thinks all of this has been a bluff by the D and at trial they roll out…RL as SODDI.

Much as I dislike so much of D work product and behaviour, they did raise substantial funds for experts for RA. I don’t think they will step down and I feel like it’s unlikely Judge G will dismiss them now.
Maybe we will see a trial in May.
I don’t think the D have any plans to roll out RL as SODDI. That dog won’t hunt and they have more evidence to imply others are SODDI. Even the P have expressed they believe this was done by more than one person. TL too!

<modsnip: off topic/rude> On the whole, it appears to me that there are many educated professionals that are looking at this case and agreeing that the investigation was very poorly done, important leads shut down for no good reason and that the “evidence” against RA is flimsy at best. I would agree. JMHO
 
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There is a part of me that thinks all of this has been a bluff by the D and at trial they roll out…RL as SODDI.

Much as I dislike so much of D work product and behaviour, they did raise substantial funds for experts for RA. I don’t think they will step down and I feel like it’s unlikely Judge G will dismiss them now.
Maybe we will see a trial in May.
RBBM

Maybe we will see a trial in May. Of what year?

Sigh.
 
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