Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #180

[kae27]

I think because on a fundamental level, most people really don't understand someone confessing to something they didn't do, or confessing to something they did do, but including details or creating a narrative that doesn't fit the evidence.

Not implying anything about the defendant's guilt, innocence, or guilty knowledge in this case, just talking in general terms.

There's just always a suspicion in people's minds when there's some kind of disclosure, even if the content is provably false - for example, the perp was in prison when the crime happened and could have had nothing to do with it.

So from a defensive position, starting from a point where their client has made some kind of admission is a harder one than if they said nothing at all. Even if the other facts of the case are identical. So I can understand why they want the confessions either not admissible or debunked by their 'confession expert'. It gives them an easier time of things defending him if the confessions are off the table or devalued in the eyes of the jury. It's probably one of the few things I actually understand about the defence strategy in this case to date.

I am not a lawyer, so MOO.

You're not a lawyer, but you might be better than this defense counsel. I kid, I kid! I think your analysis was spot on.

 

[sunshineray]

I have a dumb question, but I'm legitimately curious. When a person is charged with a crime, do their lawyers share all the discovery with them? Like, for instance, would a murder suspect get to see or read the autopsy reports, crime scene photos, things like that?

Yes, if he wanted to they'd have to show him.

 

[kae27]

If your disreputable defense attorneys tell you, your goose is cooked after you confessed voluntarily multiple times to your wife and mother, and they suggest the only way to devalue those confessions is for you to confess to other people with information inconsistent with the crime scene. That’s why you do it.

Ah, should have read further. I see what you all are saying. I suppose this is possible but incredibly unlikely. JMO.

 

[sunshineray]

How many times were we told they were keeping information close to the vest because of things that only the murder would know? So I've waited for something to come out in the confessions.

Then we learned that, for almost a week and a half, Westville had all this discovery:
i. Attorneys for Mr. Allen delivered nearly 1,000 pages of police reports to Mr. Allen on Friday, March 24, 2023, with the intention of seeking their client's copperation in his own defense. As of Monday, April 3rd, 2023, said information has yet to be provided to Mr. Allen;

That gave me pause. I feared someone would read about the crime scene and feed RA those details. In spite of that, I still wanted to believe that no one would examine the contents of those reports.

Now we learn of the actions of the companions and the c/o interviews, my trust is just gone.

They never even mentioned the confessions RA gave to the wife and mother...they're not "agents" of the State. Waiting on the State's response.

 

[sunshineray]

It will be interesting to see how long it took for the authorities to notify the prison doctor and exactly what medications were prescribed. Some medications have a very bad affect on different individuals. What helps one person can be detrimental to another. JMO

Well if they got him to stop eating his feces and drinking toilet water, I'd say they got the dosage right.

 

[TL4S]

They never even mentioned the confessions RA gave to the wife and mother...they're not "agents" of the State. Waiting on the State's response.

I've actually been wondering about this. RA's wife and mother aren't state actors or agents, but what about the prison staff who are knowingly listening to all the phone calls? Another dumb question, but I legit want to know!

 

[TTF14]

How many times were we told they were keeping information close to the vest because of things that only the murder would know? So I've waited for something to come out in the confessions.

Then we learned that, for almost a week and a half, Westville had all this discovery:
i. Attorneys for Mr. Allen delivered nearly 1,000 pages of police reports to Mr. Allen on Friday, March 24, 2023, with the intention of seeking their client's copperation in his own defense. As of Monday, April 3rd, 2023, said information has yet to be provided to Mr. Allen;

That gave me pause. I feared someone would read about the crime scene and feed RA those details. In spite of that, I still wanted to believe that no one would examine the contents of those reports.

Now we learn of the actions of the companions and the c/o interviews, my trust is just gone.

"Close to the vest" is the new 'We lost all the evidence."

They literally had no other choice but to keep it close to the vest since they lost it!

IMO

 

[OldCop]

Thank you for this information. It's nice to see the perspective of a LEO.

What is your opinion on RA? If you are comfortable sharing.

What are you thoughts on him living in Delphi after the crime and him coming forward to talk to LE as a witness? In your experience, have you seen this happen before?

It happens more than you would think. Perpetrators insert themselves into investigations for 3 reasons:
1. They want to keep an eye on the investigation.
2. They know they may have been seen in the area at the time of the crime and figure
they can preempt any suspicions directed toward them.
3. They think they’re smarter than everyone else.

 

[TTF14]

Why would the defense ship 1,000 pages of discovery to RA for him to go through it alone, with no one there to advise him, or answer questions, or ask questions. Not even a law clerk. So what happens. RA starts eating it.

Well, they were barely seeing him then because he was so far away and their access to him was very restricted. I've never been in jail or prison, but maybe they figured even if they can't get in to see him at least he had the info?

 

[layer]

I thought the same thing...it could. We've discussed before about how the Delphi murders can be the first such crimes for a man of his age, how unusual that would be, no priors. Maybe there were priors?

Possibly, but it seems like that would have been the centerpiece of the PCA, rather than completely absent.

 

[girlhasnoname]

Why would the defense ship 1,000 pages of discovery to RA for him to go through it alone, with no one there to advise him, or answer questions, or ask questions. Not even a law clerk. So what happens. RA starts eating it.

Exactly, adding also RA slipping in and out of psychosis, suffering severe mental torment by other prisoners and staff, yet he's still sane enough to review 1,000 pages of Court documents and is aiding in his own defense in some meaningful way? Say what???

I personally think either R&B were too busy or didn't want to make the long drive (I'd love to see exactly how many times R&B have physically visited their client during his detainment) while attempting their own cya to drive the documents to Washburn to hand them to RA themselves. Don't they have couriers for that? Maybe they need some more gimmie money.

moo

 

[TL4S]

Ah, should have read further. I see what you all are saying. I suppose this is possible but incredibly unlikely. JMO.

If RA's attorneys directed him to falsely confess during the time in question, then one would almost have to assume it also means his attorneys directed him (or he chose) to make his life an even worse living hell by covering himself and eating his own feces, drinking toilet water, etc. So, not only would he had to have been willing to do this, but he would have had to also be able to control his malingering and false confessions while being medicated. It's just a really hard sell for me. JMO.

 

[susiQ]

I'm not trying to debate with you here, just want you to know that I and many others do want RA to have a fair trial. I do not want an innocent person to take the guilt from the killer of Abby and Libby. The goal is true justice for these two girls. No way would I be comfortable with an innocent man found guilty and the correct killers allowed to roam free. I say this with sincerity

Thank you! I think we all want justice for A & L. Convicting an innocent man would not be justice. We agree on that too. I think where we may differ is in what constitutes a “fair” trial. If it’s anything like the treatment he has received pre-trial, I’m not hopeful JMO

 

[sunshineray]

I've actually been wondering about this. RA's wife and mother aren't state actors or agents, but what about the prison staff who are knowingly listening to all the phone calls? Another dumb question, but I legit want to know!

Listening is not interacting or controlling in any way what's being said, it's just monitoring. If anything the knowledge beforehand it's all being recorded would be a deterrent for a defendant to confess. Guess that's where the mental health question will play into. I believe the judge now will probably have to have doctors interview RA for the record, for his competence?

 

[AugustWest]

Indiana Courts Case Search - MyCase

Indiana Supreme Court, Public Access

public.courts.in.gov

Gull has granted inmate depositions

 

[girlhasnoname]

Possibly, but it seems like that would have been the centerpiece of the PCA, rather than completely absent.

Why would that be the centerpiece of the PCA of the murders of Abby & Libby? The State charged Defendant Allen with the double homicide of these two young girls. Maybe RA did commit other crimes and was never arrested.

Any attorney can answer this question, in a PCA for a specific crime, can the State reference the accused's prior bad acts? I truly do not know the answer myself.

moo

 

[layer]

If RA's attorneys directed him to falsely confess during the time in question, then one would almost have to assume it also means his attorneys directed him (or he chose) to make his life an even worse living hell by covering himself and eating his own feces, drinking toilet water, etc. So, not only would he have to be willing to do this, but he would have to also be able to control his malingering and false confessions while being medicated. It's just a really hard sell for me.

Guards wearing Odin patches could conceivably inspire fear but I don't see them inspiring conscience. If he was genuinely driven by conscience to make truthful confessions in the first place, then where did the remorse go?

 

[AugustWest]

Why would that be the centerpiece of the PCA of the murders of Abby & Libby? The State charged Defendant Allen with the double homicide of these two young girls. Maybe RA did commit other crimes and was never arrested.

Any attorney can answer this question, in a PCA for a specific crime, can the State reference the accused's prior bad acts? I truly do not know the answer myself.

moo

The probable cause must be particular to the crime at question.

 

[girlhasnoname]

I've actually been wondering about this. RA's wife and mother aren't state actors or agents, but what about the prison staff who are knowingly listening to all the phone calls? Another dumb question, but I legit want to know!

All outgoing phone calls made are recorded and subject to monitoring. It says that very clearly to the person making the call and the person receiving the call. I learned all about that in the Murdaugh trial.

 

[girlhasnoname]

A staged confession is a fascinating idea. I've been an attorney for 32 years, but don't work in criminal (other than some pro bono I've done), so maybe this happens. But on its face it seems unfathomable to me as a realistic strategy.

Well, hold on tight because this case has more twists and turns and flat out craziness than anything I have ever followed. It's been a wild ride and I think it's going to get even wilder the closer we get to trial.