Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #180

[sunshineray]

Was it ever proven or stated by LE that there was footage from the Marathon? I wonder if talk about footage from the gas station was a tool to get KAK talking?

Starting shortly after 25:00 on this MS podcast it speaks to what occured concerning the Delphi Marathon Gas video footage. The back story to this involves the Indianapolis FBI office history and adds layers to the perspective of what happened to the footage and most likely why. I'd suggest listening to the whole podcast.

 

[layer]

I wonder why RA gave his statement to a conservation officer?
Was that strategic on his part?
Did he "know" Dan Dulin?
Was it just because DD was an official for the trails?
What type of power does a conservation officer have?
If I was going to offer a statement, I am pretty sure I would walk myself into my local police department.

If DD & RA turn out to be bowling buddies it wouldn't surprise me at this point. If you look at the role DD played in the Jesse Snider case you can see that he's not just a helpful friendly park ranger. I suspect he was actively part of the investigation since this would be an all-hands-on-deck situation for a small town. It would appear that he was responsible enough to document the conversation and take down the MEID.
So... five years later

 

[TL4S]

January 2016:

Indiana to provide treatment to mentally ill prisoners under settlement

A court settlement reached this week transforms the way Indiana treats prisoners with serious mental illnesses, ending practices that often worsened their symptoms and sometimes led to suicide, according to the American Civil Liberties Union of Indiana.

Under the agreement, prisoners with serious mental illnesses will receive better access to mental health care and, with few exceptions, will no longer be held in solitary confinement in state correctional facilities. The agreement could affect 5,622 prisoners who have a mental health diagnosis, or about 20.6 percent of the total prison population, according to Indiana Protection and Advocacy Services.

"As a result of this litigation, prisoners with mental illness have more opportunities for treatment than ever before," Dawn Adams, executive director of the Indiana Protection and Advocacy Services, said in a statement. "This case, once again, underscores the importance of access to care for people with mental illness and highlights the need for reform in our mental health system."

The state had placed those prisoners in isolation with little to no access to treatment, causing them to experience hallucinations, increased paranoia and depression or suicide.

 

[girlhasnoname]

I never expected choir boys. It's just interesting who he confessed to. In your sleuthing, did you happen to notice where two of them are from?

I'll also be fine with RA being found guilty through solid evidence.

You say you're sick of talking about it all. I am too.
We still continue to do it, on and on and on. don't we?

Touche' FG
We've pulled some hard time on this one, yes, it's impossible to step away from. It's a train wreck that you just can't look away from, especially once you've become emotionally invested.

I have a feeling we'll be here until the bitter end, but I will be relieved when that day comes.

 

[girlhasnoname]

This is where we disagree. Drastically.
I wonder if we will ever learn why this was so catastrophically handled. For starters - taking five years to do the most basic and obvious job in crime investigation - clearing the people known by name to be near the scene at the time of the crime. How much evidence has been destroyed by the killer over those five years? Or by LE?

It's okay to disagree, even drastically.

I do believe we will learn more eventually about the investigation when people are free to talk.

JMO

 

[layer]

Touche' FG
We've pulled some hard time on this one, yes, it's impossible to step away from. It's a train wreck that you just can't look away from, especially once you've become emotionally invested.

I have a feeling we'll be here until the bitter end, but I will be relieved when that day comes.

It's all intertwined - the mystery, the horror, the longing to know who is reaponsible and make them pay. And then you add in all this other insanity. This close to a double murder trial it's crazy that we spend more time talking about what the lawyers did and didn't do than what the accused did and didn't do. Train wreck is the perfect description.
I stick around mostly because I enjoy reading everyone's thoughts. I view this place kind of like a support group.

 

[sunshineray]

January 2016:

Indiana to provide treatment to mentally ill prisoners under settlement

A court settlement reached this week transforms the way Indiana treats prisoners with serious mental illnesses, ending practices that often worsened their symptoms and sometimes led to suicide, according to the American Civil Liberties Union of Indiana.

Under the agreement, prisoners with serious mental illnesses will receive better access to mental health care and, with few exceptions, will no longer be held in solitary confinement in state correctional facilities. The agreement could affect 5,622 prisoners who have a mental health diagnosis, or about 20.6 percent of the total prison population, according to Indiana Protection and Advocacy Services.

"As a result of this litigation, prisoners with mental illness have more opportunities for treatment than ever before," Dawn Adams, executive director of the Indiana Protection and Advocacy Services, said in a statement. "This case, once again, underscores the importance of access to care for people with mental illness and highlights the need for reform in our mental health system."

If RA was one of these people, how did he manage all those years working as a pharmacy tech? Did he draw anybody's attention to his severe mental health condition? There's a difference between having an antisocial/grumpy/rotten personality, knowing the difference between right/wrong and being mentally unstable and incoherent. AJMO

 

[FrostedGlass]

One notable part is how the MS feels like RA's behavior (during psychosis) only emphasizes why he should have been where he was in Westville segregation unit, mentioning over and over about the suicide watch and depression.

While I do appreciate that perspective on keeping him safe, once again, there is a lot of information being assumed that the public simply doesn't have access to, like RA's mental health prior to his arrival at Westville. If you look at the code TL used in his Motion for Safekeeping, it doesn't appear RA's mental health was the reason for the move, specifically this line: For the purpose of this chapter, an inmate is not considered in danger of serious bodily injury or death due to an illness or other medical condition.

Now, I freely admit I'm not a lawyer, so I might be misinterpreting that last bolded line, so please anyone correct me, for my own understanding. But we also have the D saying he was relatively normal acting until mid-March. If he was covering himself and eating his own feces in Carroll Co or White Co., why not send him to one of the designated mental health service facilities like where he's at in Wabash?

I'll also note, while I do agree that the D uses colorful language to try to persuade (and I also think the P does the same thing), the "human experiment" term struck me more as a reference to RA's chemical state at a time while his meds were being adjusted. It is what it is, even if the prison staff are Florence Nightingales, they can't change a person's reaction to medication changes. JMO. Whether or not RA's "confessions" during that time hold value, IDK...

------------------------------------------
Section 35-33-11-1 - Inmate in county jail in imminent danger of serious bodily injury or death or represents substantial threat to safety of others, Ind. Code § 35-33-11-1 | Casetext Search + Citator
Section 35-33-11-1 - Inmate in county jail in imminent danger of serious bodily injury or death or represents substantial threat to safety of others

Upon motion by the:

(1) sheriff;(2) prosecuting attorney;(3) defendant or his counsel;(4) attorney general; or(5) court;
alleging that an inmate in a county jail awaiting trial is in danger of serious bodily injury or death or represents a substantial threat to the safety of others, the court shall determine whether the inmate is in imminent danger of serious bodily injury or death, or represents a substantial threat to the safety of others. If the court finds that the inmate is in danger of serious bodily injury or death or represents a substantial threat to the safety of others, it shall order the sheriff to transfer the inmate to another county jail or to a facility of the department of correction designated by the commissioner of the department as suitable for the confinement of that prisoner and provided that space is available. For the purpose of this chapter, an inmate is not considered in danger of serious bodily injury or death due to an illness or other medical condition.
-----------------------------------------------------

It's hard for me to imagine how being placed in Westville Correctional in solitary confinement, under suicide watch, would be anything but detrimental to one's mental heath. I'm trying to envision being moved from facility, to facility, to facility, to facility, to facility in a matter of a handful of days. How does a person cope with that? I can easily understand it if he told them he would rather kill himself than to live like that. I'm not sure that would justify a suicide watch continuing for months upon months.

Now, with all that aside, Cass Co was able to take care of him. There's no reason, IMO, that he couldn't have been transferred to there.

Now we learn they seemingly had what they needed from him before shipping him to his current place of incarceration.

 

[TL4S]

If RA was one of these people, how did he manage all those years working as a pharmacy tech? Did he draw anybody's attention to his severe mental health condition? There's a difference between having an antisocial/grumpy/rotten personality, knowing the difference between right/wrong and being mentally unstable and incoherent. AJMO

Only the clinicians can make the call as to how seriously mentally ill RA was at the time he was eating his feces and confessing. JMO. I'm only posting this because I have serious concerns about whether or not any of RA's civil liberties have been violated to the point where even if he's guilty as sin, he has a door to walk free through. And, I don't agree with MS's assessment of his mental health and behaviors being all the more reason for him to be in segregation at Westville. That article only shows how damaging that kind of environment is, not to mention to a pretrial detainee who needs to be part of his own defense.

Personally, I really don't know where RA should be, to keep him safe, to keep his sanity intact to assist with his own defense, with the ability to meet privately and effectively with counsel. I'm just not convinced that the court's decision to keep him in Westville (until the AG moved him to Wabash), under the IDOC, was the right thing to do. And like @FrostedGlass pointed out, Cass Co. jail was able to handle him. Why didn't the court make the safest move to preserve his rights? I mean, we just need this to be transparent for future cases, IMO.

 

[sunshineray]

Only the clinicians can make the call as to how seriously mentally ill RA was at the time he was eating his feces and confessing. JMO. I'm only posting this because I have serious concerns about whether or not any of RA's civil liberties have been violated to the point where even if he's guilty as sin, he has a door to walk free through. And, I don't agree with MS's assessment of his mental health and behaviors being all the more reason for him to be in segregation at Westville. That article only shows how damaging that kind of environment is, not to mention to a pretrial detainee who needs to be part of his own defense.

Personally, I really don't know where RA should be, to keep him safe, to keep his sanity intact to assist with his own defense, with the ability to meet privately and effectively with counsel. I'm just not convinced that the court's decision to keep him in Westville (until the AG moved him to Wabash), under the IDOC, was the right thing to do. And like @FrostedGlass pointed out, Cass Co. jail was able to handle him. Why didn't the court make the safest move to preserve his rights? I mean, we just need this to be transparent for future cases, IMO.

I understand your thoughts. I also think it's interesting that the AG cited RA being a danger to himself and others. If he'd been kept in a County jail situation, wouldn't he have been in a private cell? Isn't being incarcerated anywhere tramatic and unfulfilling to the mind? I'd think, as far as a person feeling body safe, a County jail would feel more dangerous than a cell where you're being watched 24/7. If RA's supposed mental breakdown was occurring because he was segregated, I'd have to answer that with, it's better than being dead. AJMO

 

[WildHuncher]

Inmates don't like molesting child killers.

Some inmates might molest them first and then kill them.

 

[Ravenmoon]

This is

Some inmates might molest them first and then kill them.

I see what you did there and also what I, inadvertently did!
As horrid as all of this is, every so often, a little chuckle is rewarding.

 

[Emma Peel]

For clarity, my confusion about lack of reference to the recorded confessions to family is that surely the same constitutional basis applies to their exclusion, even though they were legally recorded and otherwise admissible.

The defence assert in that latest memo that RA was subjected to an extended months long torment which should be seen as akin to your typical coercive interrogation. It led to a psychosis they say. So surely all the products of that should be excluded, even if legally recorded.

Very last 2 lines of the Memorandum, p. 11:

The system of pre-trial detention employed against Allen runs afoul of the Fifth and Sixth Amendments of the United States Constitution, and Article Section 14 of the Indiana Constitution.
It is for these reasons, any and all incriminating statements made by Allen while incarcerated should be suppressed.

2024 4/11 Allen Memorandum.pdf.pdf

Agree it's a broad summary statement. But it references relevant sections of the Constitution and seeks suppression for "any and all incriminating statements" "while incarcerated".

Would that not include phone call "confessions" to family?

 

[TTF14]

It's okay to disagree, even drastically.

I do believe we will learn more eventually about the investigation when people are free to talk.

JMO

And/or are forced to talk under oath.

Fingers crossed.

IMO

 

[photographer4]

It is mostly their interpretations.

They did clarify a couple of things:
One is that his confessions were numerous and that he did claim to have molested specific people other than the girls.

They (MS) believe that the Defense really need to get these confessions thrown out or they won't be able to get past them.


The newest filing might just be more damaging to their case than previous ones released. They have basically proven the need to have RA kept away from Gen Pop, that he did and does in fact not belong in a "normal".jail setting. The dude eats feces, smears his body with his own waste and drinks out of the toilet like it is a soda fountain.

Yeah, let's put him in gen pop and see how that plays out. What could go wrong?

Quite curious is his over willingness to say he is a child molester. Admitting to the murders to his family could have been a way to absolve his own guilt. Admitting it to inmates is vastly different. You don't get street cred for killing kids. But, let's sprinkle that with being a molester too. Inmates don't like molesting child killers.

Sounds to me like RA had a moment that made him want to put an end to the questions. I personally think he wanted to make a guilty plea, a confession... but, his lawyers convinced him that he had an excellent chance of walking.

The attorneys, in my opinion, have made this case almost impossible for him to get a return of not guilty from the jury.

Sometimes, less really is more!

JMO

RA saying he was a chomo (child molester) in jail makes me think that perhaps he WANTS another inmate to end his life, since he has apparently no way to really do this to himself? Just a thought. he may also be thinking that if he has a reputation for covering himself in his own crap that perhaps other inmates may be *less* inclined to attack him (and I'm being as polite as I can here). I wonder if that tactic ever works to keep oneself safe from other inmates?

 

[Emma Peel]

I guess the clinical evidence will be critical to this motion

The defence at p.9 seems to indulge in a circular reasoning where the "disorganised, delusional, paranoid and highly dysfunctional behaviour" are both the result of and the evidence of the Psychosis. There is also a fairly wild allegation about a medical experiment. One wonders how they would establish that.

It will be interesting if the evidence for Psychosis in the "TRC Hearing" report (p.2) holds up. Remember at the Safekeeping hearing the D didn't actually offer any evidence for psychosis. And the behaviours were cited as reasons to justify isolation. You can see that why a man eating his own poohs and confessing to be a child killer won't be in general circulation - but of course that logic could also get kafka-esque.

One other thing I was wondering about. If there is evidence of a psychosis (for whatever reason) does this mean the confessions would be excluded as unsafe? or must it also be shown they were obtained via unconstitutional means?

i.e is this grounds for exclusion, or does the jury assess the weight to give confessions in the face of the clinical evidence?

Interesting questions for sure. Interesting enough for me to walk them through a bit.

IMO, the exclusion decision for Constitutional Rights belongs to Gull. Her decision there will be reviewed by the Appellate. If Gull determines everything is constitutionally cool about what went down with the incarceration confessions ... the confessions, clinical evidence, and related expert testimony should go the jury for their deliberation.

Here's the 2nd place where the judicial rubber meets the road for Special Judge Gull.
(The first being her wild and crazy attempt to take RA's counsel away from him, depriving him of a speedy trial.) In the shadow of her recent SCOIN adventure, SJ Gull has her deliberative work cut out for her.

Besides that ... Will the facts related to the State's involvement in RA's fevered confessions impress or disgust a jury?

JMO

One random musing - if this stuff is all suppressed and he gets off, then it is widely publicised he confessed to all and sundry it might not go down well with Joe public.

02c

IMO, If confessions are suppressed and RA gets off ... the reason is not b/c of the suppressed confessions.

I think we can all agree that the State's case prevailing at trial should NOT be reliant upon on a post-indictment confession to prevail at trial.If RA gets off ... that's on the State's evidence, witnesses, experts, their case as presented to the jury. The State didn't meet their burden.

Presuming a competent press ... the American Joe public is no dummy.

IN this scenario - should the State lose the use of the confessions due to unconstitutional coercions - That becomes part of RA's trial story. The press, and Joe (American) public appreciate coercion vs. the constitutional rights of the indicted to legal representation.

IMO, if RA is found not guilty, American Joe public will look to the failures of the investigation ... because not guilty finding means the State couldn't make it's case and the State's evidence did not prevail. At that point, Joe public has resolved that the confessions the bench found unconstitutional.

JMHO

 

[Ravenmoon]

RA saying he was a chomo (child molester) in jail makes me think that perhaps he WANTS another inmate to end his life, since he has apparently no way to really do this to himself? Just a thought. he may also be thinking that if he has a reputation for covering himself in his own crap that perhaps other inmates may be *less* inclined to attack him (and I'm being as polite as I can here). I wonder if that tactic ever works to keep oneself safe from other inmates?

IMO:

I think, I actually believe, that when he originally started to rattle off his confessions that he was looking to end the need for a trial and that may have been his one sincere show of remorse. He wanted it out there and over with.
I think that the defense probably talked him out of it.
The poop thing probably occurred after eating the paperwork. And that happened after he was furnished with the documents from the State.
He wanted to confess, was talked off the ledge, and then saw evidence that the state had. It was enough to send him temporarily over the edge.


JMO

 

[layer]

I think, I actually believe, that when he originally started to rattle off his confessions that he was looking to end the need for a trial and that may have been his one sincere show of remorse. He wanted it out there and over with.
I think that the defense probably talked him out of it.
The poop thing probably occurred after eating the paperwork. And that happened after he was furnished with the documents from the State.
He wanted to confess, was talked off the ledge, and then saw evidence that the state had. It was enough to send him temporarily over the edge.

Seems plausible. We really need the info about the other confessions, and a bunch of timeline details.

 

[Salah11]

The fact the defense have omitted various confessions would indicate they show guilt towards RA.

IMO

 

[Caylee Advocate]

No, that post accusing NM is incorrect.

NM has not made any statement regarding the recently released confessions of RA bragging he shot the girls in the back.

Post #740 is reply to a post with this link and quoted NM’s statement about the confession to the wife not the recently released confessions.

Indiana man confessed to murders of teenage girls in phone call with his wife, documents say

Richard Matthew Allen allegedly told his wife, Kathy Allen, in an April 3 phone call that he killed Abigail Williams, 13, and Liberty German, 14.

www.kktv.com

If LE or NM has made msm comment on the recently revealed alleged confessions please link!




all imo

T