Allison Baden-Clay - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD #41

[Saxons]

JMOO .. My thinking has always been that it is possible .... NBC could have driven to and parked his vehicle in the Kenmore Shopping Centre parking lot and, was picked up in another vehicle and dropped back there (to enable him to then drive back home).
He may have dropped someone else off at GBC's house, in case the children woke up, on his way (having driven via Rafting ground Rd, and then up Brookfield Rd to the roundabout to park his vehicle).
Being dropped off at the roundabout upon returning from Kholo Creek, he would then drive home.
The person who stayed with the children would still be there at 6 am.

I think you might be on to something there. I still feel that despite multitudes of problems in the marriage, GBC didnt plan in advance to murder Allison. I seriously dont think he was "clever" enough to pull it off! I think though that there was a nasty argument and it all went badly from there. Pre-meditated? Possibly, but if so he could have planned way better than he did

After Allison died at the house, could GBC have phoned NBC and OW (the facetime call or used a landline) in a panicked state after the fight. Come and Help! OW has then gone to GBC house to stay while the girls are asleep. Lots of children sleep very soundly through lots of noise.

Is it possible that the argument ended up outside on the patio?, which would explain the foliage forensics from outside plants not found at Kholo Creek

? NBC has then agreed to meet GBC at the bus stop at the roundabout to help with the body disposal. Dont know which car NBC has at this stage...did he have the rental car that OW had? His car is quite instinctive.

Weren't there reported sightings of two cars travelling very close together towards Kholo Ck..cant remember the colours or make right now.

So OW is now at the GBC residence and lets herself in & stays the night. OW may not know anything at this stage. Imagine if he phoned her to say "Hi OW Allison is really sick and I have to to take her to hospital. The girls are asleep, but please come over now so they aren't alone" EBC would have been at the Snr BC place to look after OW children overnight.

NBC & GBC managed to dispose of he body. I too am puzzled by the iPhone. I am surmising they they it in the creek and it has been washed away.Then GBC drives and drops NBC at the roundabout so he can drive himself home.

Thoughts??

All conjecture and only my opinion

 

[LadyBird1]

You know I did think - the kids were home all night so how could they have done what they did. It doesn't sit right with me --still - without sounding hideous - its almost like wait till the kids are out of action and then get hinky and dispose of the body.

Why do that with the kids there when Olivia is there to transport the kids away and to let them spend time with their cousins ( do we know that OW's kids were there too) and sure if the girls fell asleep at Durness St with their cousins then GBC could carry them to the car and get them tucked up into their beds as usual.

What if the roundabout sitings of the Prado/Captiva were bringing the girls back to the Brookfield house and not about coming back from Kholo? NBC didn't need to go through that roundabout to return his home from dumping Allison at Kholo so maybe he was the one to drive the Captiva that night and waiting for GBC at the roundabout to switch cars.


(Altho with all due respect to Squizzey I have to say - I struggle to believe NBC sitting in the open bus stop looking forlorn and upset - NBC forlorn doesn't cut it for me!)

Sequence of events:

19 April 2012

08.45pm GBC's phone was removed from its charger.

10.00pm Loud argument heard by GBC neighbours.

10.00pm A woman's muffled screams were heard by Will Truter and his neighbour (4km from GBC home)

10.00pm Scraps the GBC neighbour's dog barking and "going crazy" Note: Actual time not specified.

10.53pm Screams heard by Bruce Flegg (Dr Flegg's home 1km from BC home.)

11.30pm NBC (allegedly) seen at bus shelter, appeared confused.

12.30am Shortly after midnight, Phone was allegedly used to call his father's phone via a "face time" call, which allows both parties to see each other and talk.

01.48am 20 April: Police allege Mr Baden-Clay’s phone was returned to the charger.

From 11.30pm 19 April to 04.30am 20 April 2012

Information required about roundabout at the intersection of Moggill and Brookfield roads between 11.30pm on Thursday, April 19 and the following day at 4am.

 

[DrWatson]

? NBC has then agreed to meet GBC at the bus stop at the roundabout to help with the body disposal. Dont know which car NBC has at this stage...did he have the rental car that OW had?

Clever conjecture - but that's all it is at the moment for obvious reasons. The hole in the theory, for me, has always been - WHY the Kenmore roundabout? The quickest way to NBC's place from the GBC house is along Rafting Ground Rd. That is also the quickest way to Kholo Creek from the home - no local would think about going to Kenmore and then heading outbound along Moggill Rd to get to Kholo - we'd all go along Rafting Ground Rd.

The only thing I can think of that would make the Kenmore roundabout thing fit is if they were taking a severely injured - but still alive (or they thought she was) - Allison to the hospital, via Kenmore. But something happened that alerted them to the fact that she'd died in the vehicle, and maybe GBC dropped NBC off at the roundabout and headed back out - unplanned - to the darkness of Moggill Rd and eventually Kholo Creek. Leaving NBC sitting on the seat at the bus stop in order not to involve him.

Perhaps we've been assuming the wrong thing? Maybe NBC knew about the death, but wasn't involved in the disposal? Maybe that's what he was doing at the roundabout, having been dropped there, unplanned, while on the way to do one thing (hospital) but then the situation changed? And maybe GBC picked him up half an hour later and took him back to his (GBC's) home where OW would have been baby-sitting, having been brought over by NBC after that Facetime call that told them about the argument and the fight? And of course NBC's car would have been at the GBC house, having come over with OW. Perhaps he went home after that, or simply stayed there and helped the cleanup, including GBC's car? And was still there in the morning when the police arrived?

That, of course, is also pure conjecture. But it's the only reason I can think of for NBC being at the roundabout and upset, that would still fit with the facts that we do have.

And of course we still haven't heard anything in court or affidavits to confirm that NBC actually WAS at the roundabout, so officially, it's still rumour....

 

[LadyBird1]

Clever conjecture - but that's all it is at the moment for obvious reasons. The hole in the theory, for me, has always been - WHY the Kenmore roundabout? The quickest way to NBC's place from the GBC house is along Rafting Ground Rd. That is also the quickest way to Kholo Creek from the home - no local would think about going to Kenmore and then heading outbound along Moggill Rd to get to Kholo - we'd all go along Rafting Ground Rd.

The only thing I can think of that would make the Kenmore roundabout thing fit is if they were taking a severely injured - but still alive (or they thought she was) - Allison to the hospital, via Kenmore. But something happened that alerted them to the fact that she'd died in the vehicle, and maybe GBC dropped NBC off at the roundabout and headed back out - unplanned - to the darkness of Moggill Rd and eventually Kholo Creek. Leaving NBC sitting on the seat at the bus stop in order not to involve him.

Perhaps we've been assuming the wrong thing? Maybe NBC knew about the death, but wasn't involved in the disposal? Maybe that's what he was doing at the roundabout, having been dropped there, unplanned, while on the way to do one thing (hospital) but then the situation changed? And maybe GBC picked him up half an hour later and took him back to his (GBC's) home where OW would have been baby-sitting, having been brought over by NBC after that Facetime call that told them about the argument and the fight? And of course NBC's car would have been at the GBC house, having come over with OW. Perhaps he went home after that, or simply stayed there and helped the cleanup, including GBC's car? And was still there in the morning when the police arrived?

That, of course, is also pure conjecture. But it's the only reason I can think of for NBC being at the roundabout and upset, that would still fit with the facts that we do have.

And of course we still haven't heard anything in court or affidavits to confirm that NBC actually WAS at the roundabout, so officially, it's still rumour....

Rafting Ground Road would need to be be avoided, due to a possible witness in that area.
(Screams heard by neighbours Will Truter (Rafting Ground Rd) startled by two screams’ Followed by a third scream. Also heard by one of his neighbours.http://www.couriermail.com.au/.../sc...f-122634166690...)
For that reason alone, keep well away from that area.
I don't believe that baby sitting duties would be of any consideration. IMO.
Agreed that the NBC sighting is still a rumour, "officially."

 

[Couldbe]

Rafting Ground Road would need to be be avoided, due to a possible witness in that area.
(Screams heard by neighbours Will Truter (Rafting Ground Rd) startled by two screams’ Followed by a third scream. Also heard by one of his neighbours.http://www.couriermail.com.au/.../sc...f-122634166690...)
For that reason alone, keep well away from that area.
I don't believe that baby sitting duties would be of any consideration. IMO.
Agreed that the NBC sighting is still a rumour, "officially."

Maybe, initially he had set out by himself to dispose of Allison's body (somewhere up Brookfield Rd ..... which would have put him closer to the roundabout) and for some reason, decided he needed to call for help. NBC parking his vehicle at the roundabout would keep him from being seen at the GBC house.

 

[Liadan]

So without strict time frames and looking from the generic perspective of what could happen when people start coming home from work at that time and building the picture of the fateful night.

Allison leaves hairdresser for home
Does Allison pick up the girls from Durness St or is OW with the girls at GBC's waiting for GBC/Allison to come home?
Has GBC cooked dinner? (he seemed handy with lunches...)

GBC and Allison fight some time after 6:30

- Allison is looking close to death she is possible left on the patio (ie. picked up the vegetation)

What is going through GBC's mind at this stage? Has he burnt dinner? Does he tell the girls to go to their rooms and stay there? Or are they still with Grandparents and OW is going to return the girls after things have settled. How does he proceed?

And so now have to get her body into the Captiva. How to do this? Is this one man job with kids around?

Sorry a bit all over the place but I can't see those kids being around when he was disposing her body. My kids are way to curious for their own good especially since those kids would have possible heard a no holds barred fight.

 

[DrWatson]

Rafting Ground Road would need to be be avoided, due to a possible witness in that area.

That doesn't make sense - RGR is a long dark road with no traffic at that hour. Whereas Kenmore roundabout is brightly lit and has cameras! And those "screams" heard by Will Truter etc along RGR were supposedly eliminated as teenagers skylarking. How could GBC or anyone know that there could be witnesses along RGR, when there would be much more likely to be witnesses at Kenmore?

Maybe, initially he had set out by himself to dispose of Allison's body (somewhere up Brookfield Rd ..... which would have put him closer to the roundabout) and for some reason, decided he needed to call for help. NBC parking his vehicle at the roundabout would keep him from being seen at the GBC house.

That doesn't make much sense either - where would you get rid of a body on Brookfield Rd? When you could simply head out along Rafting Ground Road to complete darkness? And why would he need to call for help? Plus, to get to Kholo Creek from Kenmore roundabout one would have to pass the end of NBC's street - why get him to come up to the roundabout? And the chances of NBC being "seen" at the GBC house would be almost zero - it's hard enough to see into the driveway driving past slowly. A chance sighting of NBC outside the house would be almost zero chance.

No - the theory (and that's all it is) of why Kenmore was involved at all only works for me if you assume that GBC (or whoever) was heading somewhere else and changed his mind for some reason. And the theory I posted above would fit that - if NBC had brought OW over, then was helping GBC to take Allison to hospital. But they realized she had died, and NBC didn't want to be involved or GBC didn't want to involve him further, so dropped him off at the roundabout before heading back out along Moggill Rd. That would explain NBC appearing very upset, why he had no car there, why he was even there in the first place, and possibly why the police were timing things at the roundabout - perhaps how long it would take to drive from there to Kholo Ck and back to pick up NBC and take him home....?

To summarize my theory and conjecture:

1. Allison and GBC have a blazing row, with Allison getting severely injured somehow

2. GBC calls NBC via Facetime and says "We've had a fight, Allison is hurt and I need to take her to hospital. Can you or Olivia come over to look after the girls?"

3. NBC drives OW over, OW stays at the GBC house to look after the girls, and NBC decides to go with GBC to the hospital

4. Somewhere up near Kenmore, or just beyond, something happens that makes them realize Allison is dead

5. GBC decides to drop NBC off at the roundabout rather than return home, and rather than involve him in what was to come next

6. GBC drives out along Moggill Rd to Kholo, while NBC sits, very upset, at the bench at Kenmore bus stop - not even thinking about cameras, lights, etc.

7. GBC returns, picks up NBC, and goes home to Brookfield.

8. NBC and OW stay and help clean up the Captiva, signs of the fight, dispose of the tissues that GBC used to dry the scratches, etc

9. Later in the morning, OW takes the girls to school just as the police arrive, following the charade of the phone messages, "gone for a walk" thing. NBC is also still there

The rest we know...

How does that work for a theory?

 

[Couldbe]

......That doesn't make much sense either - where would you get rid of a body on Brookfield Rd?....

...up Brookfield Rd .... left into Gap Creek Rd, heading for bush was really my thought.

 

[alioop]

Doc, if she was badly injured and his plan was to take her to the hospital,why wouldn't he call an ambulance, particularly if she is unconscious.

 

[Obsessor]

"POLICE are investigating whether Allison Baden-Clay's killer had an accomplice."

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...e-had-accomplice/story-e6freoof-1226351399375

"It is understood police are looking at whether a second person may have assisted with the murder or have helped to cover it up."

snipped

"Last week Detective Superintendent Mark Ainsworth said police were still looking for anyone who had driven through the roundabout at the intersection of Brookfield and Moggill roads on the night Mrs Baden-Clay disappeared."

"Anyone who may have been driving on that intersection roundabout in particular, either coming out of Brookfield Rd or coming along Moggill Rd, we would please ask if you would contact Crime Stoppers," he said.

"We believe at this stage those vehicles may be able to assist with our investigation in relation to Allison's death."


and this one

http://www.news.com.au/national-old...cus-on-road-clue/story-e6frfkvr-1226347827829

"Members of the public who saw anything out of place on the night of Mrs Baden-Clay's disappearance have been urged to come forward". BBM

I appreciate the thoughts and suggestions so far, but to me something is still missing.
I dont see why police were asking for "something out of place". To me, that does not equal a man at a bus stop,
and

if they had evidence GBC went through that roundabout that night, I believe it would have already been used as evidence for his activity throught he night etc. I dont think GBC went to roundabout.I believe the police were lloking at the roundabout re accomplices activity only.

???

 

[DrWatson]

...up Brookfield Rd .... left into Gap Creek Rd, heading for bush was really my thought.

Yes - that could have worked. Although Gap Creek Rd is still pretty well inhabited most of the way, apart from the reserve. But a good thought indeed. But it still wouldn't explain the roundabout....

 

[DrWatson]

Doc, if she was badly injured and his plan was to take her to the hospital,why wouldn't he call an ambulance, particularly if she is unconscious.

Very good point Alioop - but who knows how or what GBC may have been thinking that night? Maybe she was so badly hurt, and he had a guilty conscience (hah) that he thought the quickest way to get her to hospital was to race her there by car? Silly, I know - the paramedics would have treated her on the spot. But at that hour of the night, assuming it was around the time of that Facetime call, an ambulance could have taken some time to get out there and even to find their place.

But, as I said - it's only a theory. All theories can have holes poked in them, and mine is no different. Maybe the theory can be developed more?

 

[alioop]

[QUOTE I believe the police were lloking at the roundabout re accomplices activity only.

???[/QUOTE]

Good point obsessor!

 

[Obsessor]

The other thing that keeps resonating in my mind is the comment WAY back by Hawkins, where he suggested that we would all be quite suprised to find that it wasnt a domestic gone wrong. (in his opinion only).

thread 29, post 1144
I suspect the alleged cause of death won't involve an escalating dispute leading to sudden lethal violence on that night MOO. ( Hawkins )

 

[Liadan]

Doc, if she was badly injured and his plan was to take her to the hospital,why wouldn't he call an ambulance, particularly if she is unconscious.

Yes that what does me in -why not call the ambulance...?.... but I think he was shocked that he had done it and then in a panic to get rid of the body. That is when NBC and OW come in to help.

 

[alioop]

Thanks obsessor, that is what the police believe too as supported by the murder charges on the basis of motive for financial gain.

 

[alioop]

Yes that what does me in -why not call the ambulance...?.... but I think he was shocked that he had done it and then in a panic to get rid of the body. That is when NBC and OW come in to help.

An ambulance is not going to be much help to someone who is dead and I think GBC was sure she was dead. I think she died in the house or yard as do police from the info at the bail hearings

 

[Liadan]

Thanks obsessor, that is what the police believe too as supported by the murder charges on the basis of motive for financial gain.

And we have the hand drawn sketch of TMs place in Allisons diary to suggest that these topics were being discussed.

So Allison and GBC were fighting about Divorce she wanted to keep things together and he wanted out. She was his meal ticket and defenseless and trying to be a loyal wife scared of being out on her own - obviously her confidence shattered by her private world of verbal insults and her partner's indifference.

 

[Couldbe]

The other thing that keeps resonating in my mind is the comment WAY back by Hawkins, where he suggested that we would all be quite suprised to find that it wasnt a domestic gone wrong. (in his opinion only).

thread 29, post 1144
I suspect the alleged cause of death won't involve an escalating dispute leading to sudden lethal violence on that night MOO. ( Hawkins )

It may have been that he was watching the Footie TV show ..... Allison (with a conference the next day) decided to take some medication to help her sleep... went to bed, and once asleep GBC went in and caused her death by strangulation.

 

[alioop]

It may have been that he was watching the Footie TV show ..... Allison (with a conference the next day) decided to take some medication to help her sleep... went to bed, and once asleep GBC went in and caused her death by strangulation.

Yes, or without her taking medication to help her sleep. I think if there was other medication involved ( other than her Zoloft) it would have been mentioned at the second bail hearing.