Allison Baden-Clay - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD #41

[LadyBird1]

That doesn't make sense - RGR is a long dark road with no traffic at that hour. Whereas Kenmore roundabout is brightly lit and has cameras! And those "screams" heard by Will Truter etc along RGR were supposedly eliminated as teenagers skylarking. How could GBC or anyone know that there could be witnesses along RGR, when there would be much more likely to be witnesses at Kenmore?



That doesn't make much sense either - where would you get rid of a body on Brookfield Rd? When you could simply head out along Rafting Ground Road to complete darkness? And why would he need to call for help? Plus, to get to Kholo Creek from Kenmore roundabout one would have to pass the end of NBC's street - why get him to come up to the roundabout? And the chances of NBC being "seen" at the GBC house would be almost zero - it's hard enough to see into the driveway driving past slowly. A chance sighting of NBC outside the house would be almost zero chance.

No - the theory (and that's all it is) of why Kenmore was involved at all only works for me if you assume that GBC (or whoever) was heading somewhere else and changed his mind for some reason. And the theory I posted above would fit that - if NBC had brought OW over, then was helping GBC to take Allison to hospital. But they realized she had died, and NBC didn't want to be involved or GBC didn't want to involve him further, so dropped him off at the roundabout before heading back out along Moggill Rd. That would explain NBC appearing very upset, why he had no car there, why he was even there in the first place, and possibly why the police were timing things at the roundabout - perhaps how long it would take to drive from there to Kholo Ck and back to pick up NBC and take him home....?

To summarize my theory and conjecture:

1. Allison and GBC have a blazing row, with Allison getting severely injured somehow

2. GBC calls NBC via Facetime and says "We've had a fight, Allison is hurt and I need to take her to hospital. Can you or Olivia come over to look after the girls?"

3. NBC drives OW over, OW stays at the GBC house to look after the girls, and NBC decides to go with GBC to the hospital

4. Somewhere up near Kenmore, or just beyond, something happens that makes them realize Allison is dead

5. GBC decides to drop NBC off at the roundabout rather than return home, and rather than involve him in what was to come next

6. GBC drives out along Moggill Rd to Kholo, while NBC sits, very upset, at the bench at Kenmore bus stop - not even thinking about cameras, lights, etc.

7. GBC returns, picks up NBC, and goes home to Brookfield.

8. NBC and OW stay and help clean up the Captiva, signs of the fight, dispose of the tissues that GBC used to dry the scratches, etc

9. Later in the morning, OW takes the girls to school just as the police arrive, following the charade of the phone messages, "gone for a walk" thing. NBC is also still there

The rest we know...

How does that work for a theory?

G'day Doc Watson, How do you do?

I have taken the liberty to take your scenario and amend it slightly. See if this works. Sorry about the ambulance and hospital thoughts, but I can't see that fitting in with a proper murder plan.

1. Allison and GBC have a blazing row. GBC attempts (with the previously thought out plan) to kill her. But she puts up an almighty battle. Unexpected. Allison gets severely injured.

(There is a gap here.)

2. GBC calls NBC via Facetime and says "We've had a fight, Allison is hurt. She might even be dead.

3. NBC drives OW over, OW stays at the GBC house and NBC decides to go with GBC.

4. Somewhere up near Kenmore, or just beyond, something happens that makes them realize Allison is dead

5. GBC decides to drop NBC off at the roundabout rather than return home, and rather than involve him in what was to come next

6. GBC drives out along Moggill Rd to Kholo, while NBC sits, very upset, at the bench at Kenmore bus stop - not even thinking about cameras, lights, etc.

(No that can't be right either as the alleged sighting was 11.30pm, and the Facetime call was 12.30am Need to clarify events of this hour.)

7. GBC returns, picks up NBC, and goes home to Brookfield.

8. NBC and OW stay and help clean up the Captiva, signs of the fight, dispose of the tissues, rags, towels or clothing that GBC used to dry the scratches, etc

9. Later in the morning, OW takes the girls to school just as the police arrive, following the charade of the phone messages, "gone for a walk" thing. NBC is also still there.

 

[LadyBird1]

The other thing that keeps resonating in my mind is the comment WAY back by Hawkins, where he suggested that we would all be quite surprised to find that it wasn't a domestic gone wrong. (in his opinion only).

thread 29, post 1144
I suspect the alleged cause of death won't involve an escalating dispute leading to sudden lethal violence on that night MOO. ( Hawkins )

I can feel it in my bones, that this is perfectly true. "that it wasn't a domestic gone wrong."
Not just my bones, but only the day before, ie 19 April the marriage relationship "problem" was discussed with TM and GBC.

 

[DrWatson]

(No that can't be right either as the alleged sighting was 11.30pm, and the Facetime call was 12.30am Need to clarify events of this hour.)

Yup - another good point My theory is having holes poked in it - good to see. That's what theories are for. But it does get people thinking....

And your point then DOES raise the awkward question as to what was NBC allegedly doing there around 11:30pm (rumour) yet the alleged Facetime call was about 12:30am?

Maybe we've got it all wrong somewhere?

 

[Couldbe]

Yup - another good point My theory is having holes poked in it - good to see. That's what theories are for. But it does get people thinking....

And your point then DOES raise the awkward question as to what was NBC allegedly doing there around 11:30pm (rumour) yet the alleged Facetime call was about 12:30am?

Maybe we've got it all wrong somewhere?

NBC must have been alerted earlier than 11.30pm ..... for him to be waiting up at the roundabout.
Could it have been that GBC thought that NBC would be asleep, and in fact phoned someone else.....to ask him to go to meet GBC at the roundabout...for some reason. NBC arrived around 11.30 pm ....while waiting there, he made a Facetime call to GBC at about 12.30 am to say ..'where are you?'

 

[jojo85]

G'day Doc Watson, How do you do?

I have taken the liberty to take your scenario and amend it slightly. See if this works. Sorry about the ambulance and hospital thoughts, but I can't see that fitting in with a proper murder plan.

1. Allison and GBC have a blazing row. GBC attempts (with the previously thought out plan) to kill her. But she puts up an almighty battle. Unexpected. Allison gets severely injured.

(There is a gap here.)

2. GBC calls NBC via Facetime and says "We've had a fight, Allison is hurt. She might even be dead.

3. NBC drives OW over, OW stays at the GBC house and NBC decides to go with GBC.

4. Somewhere up near Kenmore, or just beyond, something happens that makes them realize Allison is dead

5. GBC decides to drop NBC off at the roundabout rather than return home, and rather than involve him in what was to come next

6. GBC drives out along Moggill Rd to Kholo, while NBC sits, very upset, at the bench at Kenmore bus stop - not even thinking about cameras, lights, etc.

(No that can't be right either as the alleged sighting was 11.30pm, and the Facetime call was 12.30am Need to clarify events of this hour.)

7. GBC returns, picks up NBC, and goes home to Brookfield.

8. NBC and OW stay and help clean up the Captiva, signs of the fight, dispose of the tissues, rags, towels or clothing that GBC used to dry the scratches, etc

9. Later in the morning, OW takes the girls to school just as the police arrive, following the charade of the phone messages, "gone for a walk" thing. NBC is also still there.

Good thoughts Dr Watson and Ladybird.

I also get stuck on the timing of the alleged NBC sighting (11:30am) and the facetime call (12:30) too. Why the need for a phonecall when plans are already in motion unless something went wrong and more discussion was required?

Second, the cars. The Prado seemed to be of more interest to the police at the roundabout (remember the stopping and questioning of cars late one Thursday night with a white Prado parked nearby) and yet it was the Captiva that test postive to blood and hair was found. Again, in my opinion, there must have been two cars used/two trips made that night. Anyone think of a reason to be otherwise?

 

[LadyBird1]

Yup - another good point My theory is having holes poked in it - good to see. That's what theories are for. But it does get people thinking....

And your point then DOES raise the awkward question as to what was NBC allegedly doing there around 11:30pm (rumour) yet the alleged Facetime call was about 12:30am?

Maybe we've got it all wrong somewhere?

Might pay to keep an open mind about some rumours.

For example, the first screams at 10.00pm (Truter) either
1 Were made by Allison, or
2 Were made by kids skylarking.

The next screams at 10.53pm (Flegg) either
1 Were made by Allison, or
2 Were made other? kids skylarking.

Either way, screams occurred.

There is a 53 minute gap in between.

Are the screams made from two separate locations.?

Two separate theories perhaps could be drawn, using the either or events.

 

[Couldbe]

Good thoughts Dr Watson and Ladybird.

I also get stuck on the timing of the alleged NBC sighting (11:30am) and the facetime call (12:30) too. Why the need for a phonecall when plans are already in motion unless something went wrong and more discussion was required?

Second, the cars. The Prado seemed to be of more interest to the police at the roundabout (remember the stopping and questioning of cars late one Thursday night with a white Prado parked nearby) and yet it was the Captiva that test postive to blood and hair was found. Again, in my opinion, there must have been two cars used/two trips made that night. Anyone think of a reason to be otherwise?

At that stage (Roundabout investigation), the test that revealed the blood and hair may not have at that point have supplied the evidence, so either vehicle was of interest.

 

[jojo85]

At that stage (Roundabout investigation), the test that revealed the blood and hair may not have at that point have supplied the evidence, so either vehicle was of interest.

Good point, thank you. And a good reason for me to 'think otherwise'.

 

[Thinking]

"POLICE are investigating whether Allison Baden-Clay's killer had an accomplice."

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...e-had-accomplice/story-e6freoof-1226351399375

"It is understood police are looking at whether a second person may have assisted with the murder or have helped to cover it up."

snipped

"Last week Detective Superintendent Mark Ainsworth said police were still looking for anyone who had driven through the roundabout at the intersection of Brookfield and Moggill roads on the night Mrs Baden-Clay disappeared."

"Anyone who may have been driving on that intersection roundabout in particular, either coming out of Brookfield Rd or coming along Moggill Rd, we would please ask if you would contact Crime Stoppers," he said.

"We believe at this stage those vehicles may be able to assist with our investigation in relation to Allison's death."


and this one

http://www.news.com.au/national-old...cus-on-road-clue/story-e6frfkvr-1226347827829

"Members of the public who saw anything out of place on the night of Mrs Baden-Clay's disappearance have been urged to come forward". BBM

I appreciate the thoughts and suggestions so far, but to me something is still missing.
I dont see why police were asking for "something out of place". To me, that does not equal a man at a bus stop,
and

if they had evidence GBC went through that roundabout that night, I believe it would have already been used as evidence for his activity throught he night etc. I dont think GBC went to roundabout.I believe the police were lloking at the roundabout re accomplices activity only.

???

Excellent point obsessor! I have often wondered if it may have been an accomplice car coming outbound that they are looking for, or maybe a car stopped etc - as I just can't find a likely reason for gbc to have used the roundabout route. I am also very sceptical about the man at the bus stop rumour, but will stand corrected in march if I'm wrong!

 

[Aberline_1979]

1. Allison and GBC have a blazing row. GBC attempts (with the previously thought out plan) to kill her. But she puts up an almighty battle. Unexpected. Allison gets severely injured.

(There is a gap here.)

2. GBC calls NBC via Facetime and says "We've had a fight, Allison is hurt. She might even be dead.

Hi Ladybird,

Your timeline seems pretty good to me, overall. Thanks!

However, I believe that it was confirmed through reporting of the second (most recent) bail hearing that the GBC-NBC facetime call never happened...apparently.

The factime call was actually discovered at the "last minute" through a thorough forensic analysis of GBC's phone. I don't exactly know how they do this, or what would lead them to believe that a facetime call had been made...but in the end it appears that they no longer believe that this midnight facetime call was made.

On the other hand, I believe the evidence that GBC's iPhone was "placed on a charger" at 1:48am still stands...

 

[LadyBird1]

It may have been that he was watching the Footie TV show ..... Allison (with a conference the next day) decided to take some medication to help her sleep... went to bed, and once asleep GBC went in and caused her death by strangulation.

Watching the Footie on TV! Sounds like a normal family activity.....
Did anyone ask him how was the Footie game, a few incidentals, who was playing who, and the names of some of the players?
Watching Footie on the evening of the 19th April?
(After the conversation with TM only hours earlier regarding the "problem" of the marriage, <modsnip>, followed by the arrival home of gorgeous looking wife with a beautiful new probably expensive hairdo, considerations for tomorrow's meeting when both women would be together);
I doubt very much the Footie would any thing of a consideration.

 

[Obsessor]

I've been mulling over the possibility/likelihood of an or several accomplices today.

Does anyone know why NBC would only have been allowed a non-contact visit? I've been reading on the Qld Corrective Services website that family visits and contact are encouraged, and it appears that the only reason for denying a contact visit are previous criminal records. I guess this can be something like DUI (driving under the influence), but I'm also wondering why EBC doesn't appear to have visited at all (that I know of).

EBC and NBC have also been conspicuously absent from the bail hearings.

I wonder if EBC is not allowed into the prison at all- contact or non-contact??

Its all so strange.

BTW- great sleuthing guys- all of you.

 

[Couldbe]

Watching the Footie on TV! Sounds like a normal family activity.....
Did anyone ask him how was the Footie game, a few incidentals, who was playing who, and the names of some of the players?
Watching Footie on the evening of the 19th April?
(After the conversation with TM only hours earlier regarding the "problem" of the marriage, after the supermarket scene, followed by the arrival home of gorgeous looking wife with a beautiful new probably expensive hairdo, considerations for tomorrow's meeting when both women would be together);
I doubt very much the Footie would any thing of a consideration.

Not sure if you know this show ....the programme is largely entertainment-based, with some football-related content included, such as previews of the weekend's fixtures and interviews with players. It seems like it was probably being aired on their TV that night, as he said that Allison was watching it when he went to bed at around 10 pm.

 

[marlywings]

Nope Marly won't be looking in back threads for rumours. I think we've all been here long enough now to know WS doesn't allow rumours. Squizzeys comments about the roundabout have been allowed to stand as he's a verified insider. The same with comments from member It'sthevibe as she's also a verified insider.

Apart from that, if it's not reported in MSM or in the affidavits then it's a no go.

 

[LadyBird1]

You know I did think - the kids were home all night so how could they have done what they did. It doesn't sit right with me --still - without sounding hideous - its almost like wait till the kids are out of action and then get hinky and dispose of the body.

Why do that with the kids there when Olivia is there to transport the kids away and to let them spend time with their cousins ( do we know that OW's kids were there too) and sure if the girls fell asleep at Durness St with their cousins then GBC could carry them to the car and get them tucked up into their beds as usual.

What if the roundabout sitings of the Prado/Captiva were bringing the girls back to the Brookfield house and not about coming back from Kholo? NBC didn't need to go through that roundabout to return his home from dumping Allison at Kholo so maybe he was the one to drive the Captiva that night and waiting for GBC at the roundabout to switch cars.


(Altho with all due respect to Squizzey I have to say - I struggle to believe NBC sitting in the open bus stop looking forlorn and upset - NBC forlorn doesn't cut it for me!)

With respect Liadan, I do not believe the children were of primary consideration to certain of the BC clan (not referring to their mother). Happy to elaborate if necessary.
And one way to keep them out of any action, is simply lock their door. Full stop, problem solved. I am not saying this is what happened, but it is one way. Vamoose. Another would be to drug them so they really are out cold.
If only walls had ears.
Re NBC looking forlorn, I don't think those words were used. Happy to be corrected! Forlorn? (Poof! As forlorn as at the funeral.)
My understanding was he didn't look his usual self. Drunk even? That translates to me either agitated or upset over something or other. But not his usual self.
Hmm, but then again, that ponderous question, why was he there at that hour? Bus?

 

[LadyBird1]

Yes, or without her taking medication to help her sleep. I think if there was other medication involved ( other than her Zoloft) it would have been mentioned at the second bail hearing.

With all due respect Alioop, (I respect and your posts considerably.)
I doubt very much if sleep was on the agenda at all that night 19 April.
Just supposing there WAS a blazing blue, (dunno about you, but for me, after an argument, that takes HOURS to put away with); then the sleep factor would have been HOURS away also. Many hours away.

 

[Liadan]

With respect Liadan, I do not believe the children were of primary consideration to certain of the BC clan (not referring to their mother). Happy to elaborate if necessary.
And one way to keep them out of any action, is simply lock their door. Full stop, problem solved. I am not saying this is what happened, but it is one way. Vamoose. Another would be to drug them so they really are out cold.
If only walls had ears.
Re NBC looking forlorn, I don't think those words were used. Happy to be corrected! Forlorn? (Poof! As forlorn as at the funeral.)
My understanding was he didn't look his usual self. Drunk even? That translates to me either agitated or upset over something or other. But not his usual self.
Hmm, but then again, that ponderous question, why was he there at that hour? Bus?

And of course LB1 - with the back bedrooms of the kids looking out towards the patio - that would be a safe hold for the children- from there they would see virtually nothing? Least not their mother being dragged to the Captiva....So maybe they got locked in the main bedroom ensuite ----


And sarcasm is the lowest form of wit - so I do apologise regarding my 'forlorn' comments about NBC- I just don't believe Squizzey - many do but that is my choice -he is an insider yes- but for me this info doesn't seem viable. I am happy to be proved wrong but as a WS insider - what else has he brought to the table now that we have had some substantial input into the case through the bail application? We are all still here and Squizzey is?????? So with all due respect these are simply my opinions and just the way I tend to view the situation!

 

[they'll get you]

If I'm reading the 'pretty boy' attitude and 'I'm God's gift to women' attitude I absolutely believe all hell broke loose when Allison actually dared scratch his face. In the heat of the moment it was obvious it would have marked 'his beautiful face', he knew it was going to show and how could he face his 'staff' in the morning let alone his lady friends, what would he say to his 'staff' how could be face society. To some of these 'types' of men that would have set him into a towering rage. How dare she do this to me? Yep absolute rage.
I've seen children sleep through anything especially after a big day at the cross country or accustomed to arguments. Or if they did wake up and wiith a very angry fathers orders to 'get back to bed, NOW'!!


I wonder if dropplets of his blood was imbedded on Allisons clothing when they found her? If blood survives a good scrubbing with bleach (Captiva) could his blood survive in the weave of her clothing?

 

[Thinking]

We seem to be presuming that the children were oblivious that night. The reality is that we don't know what they saw or heard (if anything). They may have heard much more than anyone is aware of. We just don't know. My heart goes out to them.

 

[Liadan]

Elaine has been very circumspect - and typically was quite involved with the girls so I believe any opportunity she could have the girls was an opportunity not to be missed. They were being groomed to be BADEN_CLAYS and this would have been Elaine's job -so for GBC to deal with the riff raff and for the kids to be safely in the hands of his mother or even OW. Were they there (Bfield) all night ? I don't know but I doubt it. That is JUST my opinion tho!