Aphrodite Jones, JonBenet, and Lou Smit?

[BBB167893]

I tend to believe Lou Smit---most crimes are as they appear to be.

I think you'll find that most of us here agree! (I for one wish he HAD!)

He only knew of one case out of hundreds where there was staging.

Which means he wouldn't have known it when he saw it.

Agatha is right: if it HAD been an intruder, they wouldn't have staged it to LOOK like an intruder.

 

[BBB167893]

Historically, when children are murdered by a parent, thinking logically, they would have gotten rid of the body, especially if they were going to stage a kidnapping.

I can't imagine parents murdering their child, place them in a wine cellar and then call 911 knowing the police were going to find her.

I know JR found her, but it could have just as easily been LE.

Does not make sense -- just MOT & O's.

roseofsharon, these questions are pretty old hat for most of us around here.

 

[BBB167893]

Possibly, the writer composed the RN in their own home and then copied it onto R's notepad, using R's pen, in order to make the R's look like the guilty persons, perhaps knowing PR and how she spoke, so composed the RN to sound like her.

Highly unlikely.

Whoever the writer was, did not know JR was from Michigan, not from the south - hmmm?

Actually, JR's "Southern common sense" was a family joke. Now who would know that?

The RN sounds very juvenile IMO.

So does PR a lot of times.

If that 911 call made by PR is fake, then she was a good actress.

"Academy Awards have been given for lesser performances." --Dr. Steven Pitt, forensic psychologist, who analyzed PR for the BPD.

 

[BBB167893]

Yes, a lot of the note could have been gleaned from the Access article l2/21. ie: Dixie Jazz band was playing---southern. We don't know what they may have seen in the house in the way of southern influences.

The note did not address a wife....it only said "your daughter." The perp didn't seem to know JBR's name, and only referenced "your business." I don't think they really knew what Access did. I also find it interesting, that there was no mention of JBR and the pageants or reference to her in sexual tones--one reason I don't think it was a pedophile, and the sexual assault done out of anger.

Far more likely JB's name was deliberately left out as a way to distance oneself from the crime psychologically.

Trust me, Maikai: if you want to talk about the psychology of this case, I'm your man. This is one area where I have the upper hand, mostly because things that wouldn't occur to other people DO occur to me.

 

[Toltec]

Has anyone talked about the practice ransom note???

Remember, there are several pages missing from Patsy's writing pad. Heaven only knows how many practice ransom notes she wrote.

 

[Whaleshark]

The note did not address a wife....it only said "your daughter." The perp didn't seem to know JBR's name, and only referenced "your business." I don't think they really knew what Access did. I also find it interesting, that there was no mention of JBR and the pageants or reference to her in sexual tones--one reason I don't think it was a pedophile, and the sexual assault done out of anger.

actually, the unfinished practice note found still on the pad did address:

"Mr and Mrs Ramsey"

 

[roseofsharon]

roseofsharon, these questions are pretty old hat for most of us around here.

LOL -- yep, that's why the case has been given back to the Boulder police department Dave!!

Oh BTW -- I wasn't asking anything -- it was expressing an opinion.

What's your major? That's a question.

JMOTAO's

 

[roseofsharon]

I think you'll find that most of us here agree! (I for one wish he HAD!)



Which means he wouldn't have known it when he saw it.

Agatha is right: if it HAD been an intruder, they wouldn't have staged it to LOOK like an intruder.

Where was the entry and exit staged?:woohoo:

 

[Whaleshark]

Entry and exit staged at train room / basement window.

multitudes of discussion and absurd entry scenario given by Lou Smit.

the whole entry and exit by the train room discussion by JR is what finally got me to respond on here after years of lurking.

don't. even. get. me. started.

 

[BBB167893]

LOL -- yep, that's why the case has been given back to the Boulder police department Dave!!

I don't get your meaning.

Oh BTW -- I wasn't asking anything -- it was expressing an opinion.

What's your major? That's a question.

JMOTAO's

Sorry. "Questions" was the word that popped into my head. You have to bear with me around here.

 

[BBB167893]

Where was the entry and exit staged?:woohoo:

Depends on who you ask.

 

[Maikai]

Far more likely JB's name was deliberately left out as a way to distance oneself from the crime psychologically.

Trust me, Maikai: if you want to talk about the psychology of this case, I'm your man. This is one area where I have the upper hand, mostly because things that wouldn't occur to other people DO occur to me.

What psychology? The crime isn't that complicated, considering the Boulder environment. Rich business man, who was recently in the paper plus trophy beauty queen daughter are perfect ingredients for a kidnapping---not to mention the effect "Ransom" could have had.

I'm curious---what things have happened to you that has influenced your opinion?

 

[KoldKase]

The problem with an intruder easily getting a child to reveal their favourite food is the follow up point that they have to then wait til the child digests it some of the way before killing them.

It's a completely nonsensical situation.

Agreed. What is the sense of putting duct tape on the mouth of a dead child after you've fed her pineapple, painfully inserted a pointed paint brush into her vagina, stun gunned her, bashed her head in and strangled her, during which time she's not uttered a peep?

There's a common sense element to the "intruder" theory that won't wash.

For the sake of argument, let's say there was an intruder who intended to feed something--pineapple, it turns out--to JB, but also intended to stun gun/taser her for control or some such.

How would an intruder, unknown to JB or her family, know that she would not scream bloody murder when he/she woke JB in her bedroom, in the middle of the night? HOW could he know that? With three other people sleeping in a quiet house, in a quiet neighborhood, is it feasible that someone intending to kidnap, or to harm the child in any way in the home, would risk the unknown factor? JB COULD have screamed bloody murder, kicked and fought, and her father could have come running with a gun while Patsy called 911, etc. There is no way to know that wouldn't happen.

It's the same thing with the stun gun/taser theory. There is no one who has ever used a stun gun on a conscious person or animal--even Doberson and Smit had the pig anesthetized--who doesn't know the result is hollering, screaming, thrashing about, etc. As the plethora of online/TV videos of people being actually stun gunned/tasered prove, stun guns/tasers do not knock people out. In TV interviews with the Taser company's owner, he said that's not what they do, and he would know. This includes children--remember the young child who was tasered by LE at a school in Florida a couple of years ago?

But Lou Smit would have us believe that an intruder who intended to either kidnap JB or kill her on the premises would have waltzed in, had a nice pineapple snack with JB, then hit JB with a taser several times for kicks, knowing that the taser he was going to use on his victim, while her family slept nearby, was going to result in her screaming bloody murder. Had he never once used a stun gun or taser on anyone before and just figured he'd wing it during the commission of felony murder of a child? LUCKY HIM! Contrary to the reality of what happens to others who are tasered, she never uttered a peep!

Come on; that's so absurd it's amazing that anyone would believe it, even if similar marks hadn't already been photographed on her lower leg during a photo shoot long before the murder.

 

[roseofsharon]

I don't get your meaning.



Sorry. "Questions" was the word that popped into my head. You have to bear with me around here.

Well perhaps you could explain your post stating that my opinions (not questions) are old hat for the rest of you!

My perception of your post is that my post is insignificant, not worthy of rehashing and IMO the comment was very condescending.

My point/meaning regarding the Boulder PD having the case given back to their jurisdiction is ...

Boulder PD have stated they will start from the very beginning -- every single detail investigated/rehashed -- nothing will be considered insignificant. All the dots just may get connected this time!!!

I can't imagine one of the detectives stating -- oh that's old hat -- next!!!!!

We all pull our pants on one leg at a time in this world.

IMO always

 

[roseofsharon]

Agreed. What is the sense of putting duct tape on the mouth of a dead child after you've fed her pineapple, painfully inserted a pointed paint brush into her vagina, stun gunned her, bashed her head in and strangled her, during which time she's not uttered a peep?

There's a common sense element to the "intruder" theory that won't wash.

For the sake of argument, let's say there was an intruder who intended to feed something--pineapple, it turns out--to JB, but also intended to stun gun/taser her for control or some such.

How would an intruder, unknown to JB or her family, know that she would not scream bloody murder when he/she woke JB in her bedroom, in the middle of the night? HOW could he know that? With three other people sleeping in a quiet house, in a quiet neighborhood, is it feasible that someone intending to kidnap, or to harm the child in any way in the home, would risk the unknown factor? JB COULD have screamed bloody murder, kicked and fought, and her father could have come running with a gun while Patsy called 911, etc. There is no way to know that wouldn't happen.

It's the same thing with the stun gun/taser theory. There is no one who has ever used a stun gun on a conscious person or animal--even Doberson and Smit had the pig anesthetized--who doesn't know the result is hollering, screaming, thrashing about, etc. As the plethora of online/TV videos of people being actually stun gunned/tasered prove, stun guns/tasers do not knock people out. In TV interviews with the Taser company's owner, he said that's not what they do, and he would know. This includes children--remember the young child who was tasered by LE at a school in Florida a couple of years ago?

But Lou Smit would have us believe that an intruder who intended to either kidnap JB or kill her on the premises would have waltzed in and hit JB with a taser several times. He'd have to have gone in without knowing that the taser he was going to use on his victim, while her family slept nearby, was going to result in her screaming bloody murder. Why would he think that unless he never once used it on anyone before, just figured he'd wing it during the commission of felony murder of a child, and hope for the best? And LUCKY HIM! Contrary to the reality of what happens to others who are tasered, she never uttered a peep!

Come on; that's so absurd it's amazing that anyone would believe it.

The fact that the Ramseys claim never to have heard a thing that night is additional proof that no stun gun was used on JB, even if similar marks hadn't already been photographed on her lower leg during a photo shoot long before the murder. But they had, and we have the photos to prove it.

The intruder may have been known to JB and intruder may have immediately duct taped the mouth first while she lay sleeping and then used the taser.

PR told LE that JB did not wake up when she changed her black slacks to longjohns that night, so JB a sound sleeper it would seem.

Just a different scenario.

IMO

 

[KoldKase]

What psychology? The crime isn't that complicated, considering the Boulder environment. Rich business man, who was recently in the paper plus trophy beauty queen daughter are perfect ingredients for a kidnapping---not to mention the effect "Ransom" could have had.

And yet the "kidnapper" got sidetracked with writing several drafts of a rambling ransom note in the home, feeding the victim pineapple, tasering her repeatedly (according to Smit/IDI), and sexually assaulting her; at some point he also decided to crack her skull in half; then he strangled her, cleaned and redressed her, wrapped her in her blanket in the cellar room, left the ransom note and made his clean getaway--but forgot to take the body?

What about this is a simple kidnapping?

 

[Maikai]

A tired child could easily have been lifted up and taken down the stairwell...with the taser used in the basement...possibly when she was also garrotted. The taser may have been brought in to be used on anyone waking up. There were articles in the paper at the time that stun guns and bats were the weapons of choice for young criminals in the area. You could buy them over the internet---much easier obtained then a regular gun. Stun guns also used by drug dealers. The marks on her face were identical to those used on Boggs (another case ME Doberson was involved in). In the Boggs case, they found a stun gun after he was buried. He was exhumed and the marks matched the stun gun. Doberson had missed it the first time. Not unlike Meyers. Doberson is also the person that did the pig experiments....and he researched the world's medical literature on stun gun assaults. Pigs were used because they are the most like us. He concluded with a very high degree of certainty that a stun gun had been used on JBR.

 

[KoldKase]

The intruder may have been known to JB and intruder may have immediately duct taped the mouth first while she lay sleeping and then used the taser.

PR told LE that JB did not wake up when she changed her black slacks to longjohns that night, so JB a sound sleeper it would seem.

Just a different scenario.

IMO

JB had saliva dried on her face from her mouth, drained down the right side. She was found in rigor mortis with her face turned to the right. If she had duct tape on her mouth when she was bludgeoned, how did she drool down the right side of her face? She also had blood-tinged mucous draining from her nose down the right side of her face, which dripped onto the upper sleeve of her shirt. So both drained down her face after she was unconscious. Logic indicates she had no duct tape on her mouth until she was dead, on her back in the cellar room, with her face turned to the right. That was staging.

I agree "the intruder" was known to JB, who had been sexually assaulted prior to the night she was murdered, the autopsy results prove. What are the odds that this lucky intruder wasn't the one who did that, too?

It's naive to believe everything the prime suspects tell you just because they said it. People trying to conceal a crime are known to lie. JB might not have been asleep at all, for all we know. Only John and Patsy said she was. Burke said she walked upstairs on her own.

 

[BBB167893]

What psychology?

Name it.

The crime isn't that complicated, considering the Boulder environment.

I've been saying that for years!

I'm curious---what things have happened to you that has influenced your opinion?

Quite a lot, Maikai. Mostly bad, and at the hands of people who supposedly "loved" me. But it taught me one heck of a lesson: anyone is capable of anything. It's a hard lesson for a hard world, and we had all DAMN well better learn it.

Long story short, Maikai, like I tell every other IDI: if you tell me that the Ramseys were not capable of this, it's completely wasted on me. I could say more, but I don't wish to be cruel.

 

[DeeDee249]

I think people either forget or dont know, that forensics place BR at the table with Jonbenet, the tea glass and pineapple/bowl. When you place BR at that table, how do you see that intruder theory playing out?

There was no intruder!

One thing we have to remember- prints cannot be dated, nor can DNA (in most circumstances). We believe that BR was sitting at that table while JB ate her pineapple, he may have had some himself. He may have had tea (hot or cold) in the glass or he may have had it in a cup or mug and used the glass for the spent tea bag. There was ample opportunity to test the rim of the glass for DNA, which would have confirmed that BR drank from it (or didn't) and the paper tag on the tea bag could have been tested for prints. So could the spoon have been tested for prints and saliva. The contents of the pineapple bowl were tested for a match to the contents of JB's small intestine (there WAS a match) but the contents of that bowl could also have been tested for the presence of JB's saliva, which would have been introduced into the bowl with the second spoonful. Finding JB's saliva proves she ate THAT pineapple THAT night about 2 hours before she died. But although it seems positive BR was there with her, the presence of his saliva or prints cannot be used to PROVE he was there with her at that time. This is circumstantial and something the defense would tear into in court. And BR wouldn't be able to be questioned on it anyway.
These items (bowl, spoon, tea glass, tea bag) should still exist in evidence (as is customary in an unsolved murder) and are still able to be tested. But I doubt they have been, and if they have not been, doubt they will be. And it wouldn't surprise me if they were "lost" somehow.