Australia Australia Claremont Serial Killer, 1996 - 1997, Perth, Western Australia - #12

[7SJ707]

Here's something to ponder, perhaps. I was thinking about BRE's arrest and the TRG going in so hard and heavy for 1 bloke when you'd think maybe 3 police cars with say 8 armed officers would be enough to arrest 1 man? Wouldn't WAPOL have to justify somehow that sort of heavilly armed team in a residential environment, by that I mean this looks to me that WAPOL had a strong idea this bloke was armed in some way from what he had done, a knife or a gun so they were quite within their rights to take a large heavilly armed team in? This seems to me to indicate BRE (if he did commit these crimes) was armed during his later attacks and actually used a weapon on his victims? Maybe I'm wrong with how I'm seeing this, but it is just ringing bells to me about what may have happened with our beautiful Claremont girls, and other poor victims.

Believe me I am eminently qualified to comment on this one, Once BRE was identified as a firm suspect he and his associates would have been under 24/7 surveillance and all the joys that entails.
WAPOL would have been in the horns off a dilemma- on the one hand possebly looking like the laughing stock again by wrongfully targeting an innocent man ala the attention seeking buffoon LW.
On the other hand hand they could not afford to have him turn out be the "real deal" ,realise the jig was nearly up ,and give them the slip overseas or to the Eastern States.
So up until they were ready to arrest he would have surveillance and monitoring up the YIN YANG. I have already theorised that some of his mid year Facebook postings were as a result of, and in mocking response to this overt attention.
I don't think WAPOL surveillance teams do car tampering as much anymore after the 1999 Burns Beach fiasco but you can bet as the date for arrest drew closer BRE would have been subject to provocations and temptations aimed at getting a response ....mysterious "wrong number' phone calls.. its Jane here may i speak to Sarah..."...stranger knocking at the door asking "how to get to Claremont"...a scantily clad attractive women seemingly drunk and asleep in the Bustop he drives past some mornings....
Finally sensing the guy is behaving defiantly to the attention and unlikely to crack WAPOL would have bought the TRG in hoping he would " go to water " at the sight of a few drawn guns and a bit of implied danger, shouting, flash bangs etc.
ALL JMO

 

[janwa]

Believe me I am eminently qualified to comment on this one, Once BRE was identified as a firm suspect he and his associates would have been under 24/7 surveillance and all the joys that entails.
WAPOL would have been in the horns off a dilemma- on the one hand possebly looking like the laughing stock again by wrongfully targeting an innocent man ala the attention seeking buffoon LW.
On the other hand hand they could not afford to have him turn out be the "real deal" ,realise the jig was nearly up ,and give them the slip overseas or to the Eastern States.
So up until they were ready to arrest he would have surveillance and monitoring up the YIN YANG. I have already theorised that some of his mid year Facebook postings were as a result of, and in mocking response to this overt attention.
I don't think WAPOL surveillance teams do car tampering as much anymore after the 1999 Burns Beach fiasco but you can bet as the date for arrest drew closer BRE would have been subject to provocations and temptations aimed at getting a response ....mysterious "wrong number' phone calls.. its Jane here may i speak to Sarah..."...stranger knocking at the door asking "how to get to Claremont"...a scantily clad attractive women seemingly drunk and asleep in the Bustop he drives past some mornings....
Finally sensing the guy is behaving defiantly to the attention and unlikely to crack WAPOL would have bought the TRG in hoping he would " go to water " at the sight of a few drawn guns and a bit of implied danger, shouting, flash bangs etc.
ALL JMO

He must have nerves of steel then days before his arrest he was having dinner with friends though of course he could have been looking at it as 'the last supper'.

 

[lampformypath]

Believe me I am eminently qualified to comment on this one, Once BRE was identified as a firm suspect he and his associates would have been under 24/7 surveillance and all the joys that entails.
WAPOL would have been in the horns off a dilemma- on the one hand possebly looking like the laughing stock again by wrongfully targeting an innocent man ala the attention seeking buffoon LW.
On the other hand hand they could not afford to have him turn out be the "real deal" ,realise the jig was nearly up ,and give them the slip overseas or to the Eastern States.
So up until they were ready to arrest he would have surveillance and monitoring up the YIN YANG. I have already theorised that some of his mid year Facebook postings were as a result of, and in mocking response to this overt attention.
I don't think WAPOL surveillance teams do car tampering as much anymore after the 1999 Burns Beach fiasco but you can bet as the date for arrest drew closer BRE would have been subject to provocations and temptations aimed at getting a response ....mysterious "wrong number' phone calls.. its Jane here may i speak to Sarah..."...stranger knocking at the door asking "how to get to Claremont"...a scantily clad attractive women seemingly drunk and asleep in the Bustop he drives past some mornings....
Finally sensing the guy is behaving defiantly to the attention and unlikely to crack WAPOL would have bought the TRG in hoping he would " go to water " at the sight of a few drawn guns and a bit of implied danger, shouting, flash bangs etc.
ALL JMO

Fascinating! Thanks for all that background information, very interesting and so, dare I say it, "theatrical" (I have been a professional entertainer so I am "eminently qualified" to use that term). Don't get me wrong by that comment I think it's terrific those little "coincidences" of knocks at doors and scantily clad sleeping ladies at bus stops (shock horror!), I'm so intrigued at the "mind games" that WAPOL obviously play. More power to 'em, and if they want someone to help write a script, direct a scene, act out a part, sing a
theme tune, well I am available (of course I'd have to consult my diary!!)

 

[Sutton]

Believe me I am eminently qualified to comment on this one, Once BRE was identified as a firm suspect he and his associates would have been under 24/7 surveillance and all the joys that entails.
WAPOL would have been in the horns off a dilemma- on the one hand possebly looking like the laughing stock again by wrongfully targeting an innocent man ala the attention seeking buffoon LW.
On the other hand hand they could not afford to have him turn out be the "real deal" ,realise the jig was nearly up ,and give them the slip overseas or to the Eastern States.
So up until they were ready to arrest he would have surveillance and monitoring up the YIN YANG. I have already theorised that some of his mid year Facebook postings were as a result of, and in mocking response to this overt attention.
I don't think WAPOL surveillance teams do car tampering as much anymore after the 1999 Burns Beach fiasco but you can bet as the date for arrest drew closer BRE would have been subject to provocations and temptations aimed at getting a response ....mysterious "wrong number' phone calls.. its Jane here may i speak to Sarah..."...stranger knocking at the door asking "how to get to Claremont"...a scantily clad attractive women seemingly drunk and asleep in the Bustop he drives past some mornings....
Finally sensing the guy is behaving defiantly to the attention and unlikely to crack WAPOL would have bought the TRG in hoping he would " go to water " at the sight of a few drawn guns and a bit of implied danger, shouting, flash bangs etc.
ALL JMO

Forgive me for questioning you, 7SJ, but why do you consider yourself eminently qualified to comment on WAPOL's tactics? Are you a former police officer? Or were you previously targeted by WAPOL?

I'm not questioning whether BE would have been under continuous surveillance from the moment he was identified as a suspect. That makes perfect sense.

I missed your past comments suggesting BE was mocking or even recognizing WAPOL attention. So you think BE became a suspect far earlier than what is being reported? What did his FB posts say that seem to be related to police scrutiny? Some posters have mentioned the "Eagles' Nest" comment, but you refer to mid-year posts. What were those?

And you're suggesting WAPOL set up a campaign to increase pressure by prank calling BE's house and asking for one of the victims? And they posed a scantily clad drunk female on his path to work? Wow. I have some doubts that police would resort to such methods, but I'd love to know where you're getting this information from.

 

[aequitas]

Forgive me for questioning you, 7SJ, but why do you consider yourself eminently qualified to comment on WAPOL's tactics? Are you a former police officer? Or were you previously targeted by WAPOL?

I'm not questioning whether BE would have been under continuous surveillance from the moment he was identified as a suspect. That makes perfect sense.

I missed your past comments suggesting BE was mocking or even recognizing WAPOL attention. So you think BE became a suspect far earlier than what is being reported? What did his FB posts say that seem to be related to police scrutiny? Some posters have mentioned the "Eagles' Nest" comment, but you refer to mid-year posts. What were those?

And you're suggesting WAPOL set up a campaign to increase pressure by prank calling BE's house and asking for one of the victims? And they posed a scantily clad drunk female on his path to work? Wow. I have some doubts that police would resort to such methods, but I'd love to know where you're getting this information from.

I am curious. Surely the LAST thing WAPOL would want is to tip him off ... That would lead him to destroy trophies and other evidence, would it not? If he is guilty that is.

 

[lsdmongre]

Believe me I am eminently qualified to comment on this one, Once BRE was identified as a firm suspect he and his associates would have been under 24/7 surveillance and all the joys that entails.
WAPOL would have been in the horns off a dilemma- on the one hand possebly looking like the laughing stock again by wrongfully targeting an innocent man ala the attention seeking buffoon LW.
On the other hand hand they could not afford to have him turn out be the "real deal" ,realise the jig was nearly up ,and give them the slip overseas or to the Eastern States.
So up until they were ready to arrest he would have surveillance and monitoring up the YIN YANG. I have already theorised that some of his mid year Facebook postings were as a result of, and in mocking response to this overt attention.
I don't think WAPOL surveillance teams do car tampering as much anymore after the 1999 Burns Beach fiasco but you can bet as the date for arrest drew closer BRE would have been subject to provocations and temptations aimed at getting a response ....mysterious "wrong number' phone calls.. its Jane here may i speak to Sarah..."...stranger knocking at the door asking "how to get to Claremont"...a scantily clad attractive women seemingly drunk and asleep in the Bustop he drives past some mornings....
Finally sensing the guy is behaving defiantly to the attention and unlikely to crack WAPOL would have bought the TRG in hoping he would " go to water " at the sight of a few drawn guns and a bit of implied danger, shouting, flash bangs etc.
ALL JMO

They also coukd have rang them asking for information in other cases like that family and house mate that went mysteriously missing down in the South West and see if he thinks he is being blamed for that he might then go that wasn't me I only am responsible for the Claremont girls. JMO



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[SherlockSleuth]

I feel obliged to reinject some sensibility at this point... There is no way that the coppers would have tipped off their suspect.

 

[nocomment]

I feel obliged to reinject some sensibility at this point... There is no way that the coppers would have tipped off their suspect.

There is precedent. They used an overt surveillance strategy with LW with the intent that it could prompt a confession. Here is a citation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claremont_serial_murders .

Seems logical that if covert surveillance was leading nowhere and costs mounting ( criticised heavily for their resource allocation and long term surveillance of LW) that they would apply pressure, as the OP stated, to incite some sort of mistake, such as revisiting a site of interest, or a deviation from his routine.

IMO the information that lead them to BRE whether familiar DNA or Huntingdale intrusion suspicion, was significant enough that there would be pressure to just arrest and test (against KK/Huntingdale/08 CSK DNA sample), rather than waste continued resources surveying him. As the window on their surveillance closed, there's really nothing to lose.


In regards to the most recent discussion that Julie Cutler was a CSK victim, Liam Bartlett reported detectives had told JC's father she was likely the first victim of the CSK. Combine this with the Lance Williams suspicion where his connection with JC through tafe was a contributing factor and we can be quite certain police connected these two crimes for a long time, at least in an unofficial capacity.

The main critique of the JC CSK theory is that the new connection with the HD intrusion suggests that his only intent was rape at this point in the timeline. The idea that serial killers stick to one MO is myth, Cooke is a great example of diversity in method. The other case that comes to mind is EAR/ONS, who evolved from B&E into B&E murders, but after the fact, still committed B&E's and assaults that didn't feature murder. So there is really no rational to believe CSK did not kill JC and then change strategies to lesser crimes like B&E / Rape.

I am most inclined to suspect that JC was the CSK's first or one of the first, that it was an opportunistic crime, with little planning or organisation. And therefore the car was the kill spot and was dumped to compromise evidence.


Here is a great article that has probably been posted, http://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/re...t/news-story/2ee1d8937ad7499c2ed91edb39af5a1a

What I found interesting is the suspicion of Ross / Weygers two man kidnap team. IMO this theory definitely evolved from the showgrounds subway event where there were two perps, the taxi driver and a man in the back seats. If the showground subway incident was the CSK and the victim's recount accurate, the deduction would be the CSK had an accomplice in some of his crimes. I would speculate the obvious accomplice has been under parallel investigation.

 

[petedavo.au]

Getting your name in the newspaper in the bottom paragraph, after researching an astrology forum http://www.psychics.org.au/viewtopic.php?t=205#p898 , makes one "eminently qualified" upon serial killers, apparently. https://thewest.com.au/news/wa/death-dog-hunts-for-missing-hayley-ng-ya-163645

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[BReVeTTe]

I am curious. Surely the LAST thing WAPOL would want is to tip him off ... That would lead him to destroy trophies and other evidence, would it not? If he is guilty that is.

i agree.
I don't believe they'd want to risk him destroying evidence, but if there was any possible substance to earlier police toying - not suggesting that they would toy, only that they'd want to have a watertight case before toying - might the prosecution's case already be much tighter than we've so far been led to believe?
i mean 'we' are still speculating as to how, and on what grounds, police were able to make a link to the accused's DNA, and whether that will stick.
further knowing police definitely won't put all their cards on the table until such time as absolutely necessary during later court proceedings ... just say as a prelude to gathering/matching DNA they had already a trophy/trophies in their "hushed possession" (possible scenario - eg. SSkeyring discovered by ex, handed in to police) this having then given police warranted suspicion to match his DNA to other matters.
might the police be keeping such a trophy as their trump card, intending to present as late evidence in the hope he is still pleading either not guilty, or guilty only as charged?

me not having a legal mind ....could they do that?

[emoji887]

 

[BReVeTTe]

.....

 

[mandy.maree]

Im thinking they would have charged him with SS murder or disappearance had anything of hers been found.
Seems they have nothing on that at time of arrest. Hoping that has or will change soon.

I have read something was handed to police by someone close to him. May or may not be true .
Doubt many with real info would be doing much talking till the case goes to court



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[Nugget77]

Here's something to ponder, perhaps. I was thinking about BRE's arrest and the TRG going in so hard and heavy for 1 bloke when you'd think maybe 3 police cars with say 8 armed officers would be enough to arrest 1 man? Wouldn't WAPOL have to justify somehow that sort of heavilly armed team in a residential environment, by that I mean this looks to me that WAPOL had a strong idea this bloke was armed in some way from what he had done, a knife or a gun so they were quite within their rights to take a large heavilly armed team in? This seems to me to indicate BRE (if he did commit these crimes) was armed during his later attacks and actually used a weapon on his victims? Maybe I'm wrong with how I'm seeing this, but it is just ringing bells to me about what may have happened with our beautiful Claremont girls, and other poor victims.

This is something I think is highly likely, yet I've not seen much discussion of it.

I think it's highly unlikely he persuaded the girls to get in his car. This is mainly due to the fact that there are very little (if any) reports of failed attempts. I also think this method of abduction contradicts what we already know about previous known abductions (Karakatta in particular).

Which leads me to thinking that a gun (most likely) or knife (less likely) were used to abduct the victim and get in the car. I think waiting for a dark spot to pull a gun then to get them into his car without a fuss is most likely to be the method of abduction.

In saying that, I think the heavy handed way the TRG went into his house was probably fairly standard response in the modern day. Why leave anything to chance.

Finally, in terms of the poster saying that they had BRE under overt surveillance and were maybe baiting him, I find that highly unlikely. I'd also like to know what that poster (7etc) is specially qualified to comment.

I am pretty confident that BRE didn't know he was about to be caught and that police had him under covert surveillance. I'm fairly confident that the first he knew about the police being onto him was when they kicked his front door in.

 

[mandy.maree]

I agree that he had no idea he was a suspect till he was arrested. Be too risky to make him aware.

I see good points for blitz and pick up.
The CSI doc is what makes me think he picked them up-his past history makes me think blitz however.
The only way imo he could have got those girls to go willingly in the car is if he knew or met them previously.
Maybe he and his ex wife used to go out in the area even and they felt safe to go with him as they thought he was married still.
Possibly no reports of failed pick ups as he didn't offer total strangers a lift home.
For all we know there may have been failed pick up attempts however. There is an identikit out there of the CSK that I still have no idea of its origins but it sure does look like BRE !

He didn't kill the girls he blitzed and covered. Makes me believe that the Claremont victims had seen too much. His face, car etc. Probably even spoke to him.


I think there is a good possibility he took them home with him and possibly disposed of them the next day in his work vehicle or another vehicle that wouldn't come under suspicion as easily.


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[SherlockSleuth]

Pretty sure everyone's aware that police said something along the lines of 'one of the ways we can crack this case is by locating specific pieces of jewellery'. If the suspect knew they were onto him he'd quickly dispose of said jewellery.

 

[JoeDetective]

Here's a map. Meticulous may have posted a map with the same info at some point, I'm not sure. But Kerry was found about 40km from where she was last seen, a similar distance to Jane and Ciara.

Where was Kerry headed on the map? Would provide plausibility for the hitchhiker route theory.

 

[JoeDetective]

There has been a lot of chat between blitz attacks and other. My personal view is that the CSK utilised both.

There were obviously some blitz attacks in an opportunistic manner, however also feel that the CSK knew some of his victims as perhaps acquaitances. If we consider MM meeting JR, there appears to be recognition from JR (photo attached).

I have also attached a photo of BRE aged around 18. The 'boofy' hair looks quite similar with MM & BRE.

As many have said, MM looks very similar to BRE, obviously WAPOL will be hoping it is not him as it makes them look incredibly incompetent.


I just do not comprehend how not releasing the footage in this instance was in any way a good idea. A mixture of arrogance and ignorance I presume.

 

[JoeDetective]

Pretty sure everyone's aware that police said something along the lines of 'one of the ways we can crack this case is by locating specific pieces of jewellery'. If the suspect knew they were onto him he'd quickly dispose of said jewellery.

Yes and no, the jewellery is a souvenir of the event, it can also allow them to relive the event. It is pretty easier to hide very small items somewhere they can't be found.

 

[7SJ707]

Sadly, real life crime investigation is not as easy as you see on your TV shows and the movies. In real life, Physical Survelliance of any person is costly, difficult, time consuming and almost impossible to conceal from the "Target " over a given period of time. This difficulty is magnified x10 when it is necessary to follow the target in a motor vehicle.
Similarly, the constant theme here about serial killers keeping" trophies " has been done to death as well...yes it has happened in past cases, but then every fictional tv crime show in the Western World in the past 25 years has used that theme to conveniently wrap up and finish the show by the last advertisement break.
Serial killers aren't stupid,and they watch TV crime shows as well. I am betting any that were kept post crime were long gone ,,,especially given Karl O'Callaghans comments asking for people to be mindful of comments posted on social media and the damage it could do to an investigation.
Amazing foresight by Carl..?..or, had signifigant damage been already done earlier, possibly alerting the POI prior to police involvement around 2015 and allowing him clean up any loose ends before WAPOL dialled him in.? Time will tell . JMO opinion and theory.

 

[JoeDetective]

Apologies if this has been covered before but here's another sexual predator, basketballer ("Tiny" Pinder) charged with rape in Perth during late 1980's-1990 and with a history of previous sexual assault. I clearly remember seeing him walking around Claremont during that era.

Apart from Claremont, there's a connection to Fremantle ... and the Parmelia Hilton nightclub, where he picked up a girl and was later charged with rape. Other sexual assault convictions followed.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-07-...ured-fan-to-flat-and-raped-her-court-/7661776

Extremely different MO to KK and CSK.