Australia Australia Claremont Serial Killer, 1996 - 1997, Perth, Western Australia - #12

[BReVeTTe]

Yes and no, the jewellery is a souvenir of the event, it can also allow them to relive the event. It is pretty easier to hide very small items somewhere they can't be found.

within the space of 20years the police would have had replicas of all the missing jewelry, imo.
if souvenired, discovered, and turned in, they might have been replaced with the replicas, leaving no suspicion, opportunity for DNAmatching, and a watertight case pre arrest.
speculated theory.


[emoji887]

 

[Nugget77]

Sadly, real life crime investigation is not as easy as you see on your TV shows and the movies. In real life, Physical Survelliance of any person is costly, difficult, time consuming and almost impossible to conceal from the "Target " over a given period of time. This difficulty is magnified x10 when it is necessary to follow the target in a motor vehicle.
Similarly, the constant theme here about serial killers keeping" trophies " has been done to death as well...yes it has happened in past cases, but then every fictional tv crime show in the Western World in the past 25 years has used that theme to conveniently wrap up and finish the show by the last advertisement break.
Serial killers aren't stupid,and they watch TV crime shows as well. I am betting any that were kept post crime were long gone ,,,especially given Karl O'Callaghans comments asking for people to be mindful of comments posted on social media and the damage it could do to an investigation.
Amazing foresight by Carl..?..or, had signifigant damage been already done earlier, possibly alerting the POI prior to police involvement around 2015 and allowing him clean up any loose ends before WAPOL dialled him in.? Time will tell . JMO opinion and theory.

Can you give us some idea why you are specifically qualified to comment on the surveillance please?

It will help in my mind to give weight to your opinion on this matter. At this stage I find it very difficult to believe that police were overtly surveilling and baiting BRE prior to arrest.

 

[JoWa]

Has anyone ever put up a map with all the CSK and victims points of relevance? Is there a good (easy) mapping app I could use to do it?


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[Foolio79]

There is precedent. They used an overt surveillance strategy with LW with the intent that it could prompt a confession. Here is a citation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claremont_serial_murders .

That wasnt necessarily by choice. They switched to an overt approach after the listening equipment they had installed in the roof above his desk fell through the ceiling... while he was sitting at the desk. Its fair to say their cover was blown after that.

 

[BReVeTTe]

Im thinking they would have charged him with SS murder or disappearance had anything of hers been found.
Seems they have nothing on that at time of arrest. Hoping that has or will change soon.

I have read something was handed to police by someone close to him. May or may not be true .
Doubt many with real info would be doing much talking till the case goes to court
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i think they'd be silly to have put all their eggs in one basket.
Not that a guilty plea and conviction on existing charges would yield a poor sentence, but if they had some evidence (not yet classed as discoverable, and for which questioning had resulted in continued denial) which could be produced at a later stage, it might eliminate any reduction from a guilty plea, and any leniency.

...again, i'm no legal so probably totally off the mark, and as no one has answered my previous question in comment #1154, i remain non the wiser


[emoji887]

 

[lampformypath]

There is precedent. They used an overt surveillance strategy with LW with the intent that it could prompt a confession. Here is a citation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claremont_serial_murders .

Seems logical that if covert surveillance was leading nowhere and costs mounting ( criticised heavily for their resource allocation and long term surveillance of LW) that they would apply pressure, as the OP stated, to incite some sort of mistake, such as revisiting a site of interest, or a deviation from his routine.

IMO the information that lead them to BRE whether familiar DNA or Huntingdale intrusion suspicion, was significant enough that there would be pressure to just arrest and test (against KK/Huntingdale/08 CSK DNA sample), rather than waste continued resources surveying him. As the window on their surveillance closed, there's really nothing to lose.


In regards to the most recent discussion that Julie Cutler was a CSK victim, Liam Bartlett reported detectives had told JC's father she was likely the first victim of the CSK. Combine this with the Lance Williams suspicion where his connection with JC through tafe was a contributing factor and we can be quite certain police connected these two crimes for a long time, at least in an unofficial capacity.

The main critique of the JC CSK theory is that the new connection with the HD intrusion suggests that his only intent was rape at this point in the timeline. The idea that serial killers stick to one MO is myth, Cooke is a great example of diversity in method. The other case that comes to mind is EAR/ONS, who evolved from B&E into B&E murders, but after the fact, still committed B&E's and assaults that didn't feature murder. So there is really no rational to believe CSK did not kill JC and then change strategies to lesser crimes like B&E / Rape.

I am most inclined to suspect that JC was the CSK's first or one of the first, that it was an opportunistic crime, with little planning or organisation. And therefore the car was the kill spot and was dumped to compromise evidence.


Here is a great article that has probably been posted, http://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/re...t/news-story/2ee1d8937ad7499c2ed91edb39af5a1a

What I found interesting is the suspicion of Ross / Weygers two man kidnap team. IMO this theory definitely evolved from the showgrounds subway event where there were two perps, the taxi driver and a man in the back seats. If the showground subway incident was the CSK and the victim's recount accurate, the deduction would be the CSK had an accomplice in some of his crimes. I would speculate the obvious accomplice has been under parallel investigation.

Great article thanks so much for that "no comment", I hadn't seen it before and certainly fleshes out the psychological and professional costs of this enquiry. Hmmm.... 2 man/? 1 man 1 woman team perhaps on some of these crimes?? Lord help us how deeply this goes into so many other crimes against women (and children?) at that time and since, and perhaps how "high up" the connections go. We may never know, especially IF BRE is found guilty and keeps his mouth shut for fear of being "dealt with" in prison. Oh dear this is all so terribly unjust and sad to so many innocent people. Perhaps the case should be renamed CSKS (plural)?

 

[JoeDetective]

Has anyone ever put up a map with all the CSK and victims points of relevance? Is there a good (easy) mapping app I could use to do it?


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There was a google map with it someone made a while back but as with everything it got taken down, I was planning on making an editable wiki with all the info and map but never found the time.

 

[JoeDetective]

Can you give us some idea why you are specifically qualified to comment on the surveillance please?

It will help in my mind to give weight to your opinion on this matter. At this stage I find it very difficult to believe that police were overtly surveilling and baiting BRE prior to arrest.

<modsnip>

As soon as WAPOL got confirmation of suspect matching the CSK DNA profile, had they not been surveilling the most wanted criminal in Australia immediately and continually I'd be extremely disappointed.

 

[Sutton]

Where was Kerry headed on the map? Would provide plausibility for the hitchhiker route theory.

...At the end of the night, Kerry needed to get home. She did have a car, but she left it, along with her purse, at a friend’s house in Armadale (it’s unclear if this was Kylie’s house or another friend)...

...Some reports say Kerry was headed home to Bickley. Others say she was going to the friend’s house in Armadale, where her vehicle was located...

Sources linked here:
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...-Western-Australia-12&p=13082572#post13082572

Ellipses indicate snips. It's unclear, probably Armadale, IMO.

 

[Spinnaker]

BRE must have had an inkling that WAPOL were getting close.

If we consider the below article, there is mention of CCTV footage, possibly with footage of BRE's vehicle - this may have got BRE a bit nervous if he had driven in area.

https://thewest.com.au/news/wa/cops-overlooked-serial-killer-clues-ng-ya-105370

The below article (dated Dec 2015) also mentions that "police believe the killer used a mid-1990s white Holden Commodore VS series 1 to abduct and kill at least two of his victims" and highlights that "they have linked fibres found on Jane Rimmer's body to the upholstery of a car matching that description." There was also mention of the link to the KK attack.

http://www.watoday.com.au/wa-news/claremont-serial-killer-case-new-clues-on-murderers-car-20151204-glfnot.html

Let's consider that he realises that WAPOL are getting close - there was also discussion about a Telstra POI on WS back in March 2016 which may have got his attention.

One item I am unsure of is mentioned in the below article (Jan 1 - 2017) regards to &#8220;critical item&#8221; overlooked from the body of third victim Ciara Glennon (if anyone can shed light on this?).

"The reported missed opportunity was when a critical forensic item from the body of Ms Glennon, murdered in 1997, was overlooked. It was tested in Britain well after 2004 and revealed &#8220;the breakthrough clue&#8221;.

https://thewest.com.au/news/wa/vital-clues-missed-in-hunt-for-claremont-serial-killer-ng-b88342709z

 

[Nugget77]

BRE must have had an inkling that WAPOL were getting close.

If we consider the below article, there is mention of CCTV footage, possibly with footage of BRE's vehicle - this may have got BRE a bit nervous if he had driven in area.

https://thewest.com.au/news/wa/cops-overlooked-serial-killer-clues-ng-ya-105370

The below article (dated Dec 2015) also mentions that "police believe the killer used a mid-1990s white Holden Commodore VS series 1 to abduct and kill at least two of his victims" and highlights that "they have linked fibres found on Jane Rimmer's body to the upholstery of a car matching that description." There was also mention of the link to the KK attack.

http://www.watoday.com.au/wa-news/claremont-serial-killer-case-new-clues-on-murderers-car-20151204-glfnot.html

Let's consider that he realises that WAPOL are getting close - there was also discussion about a Telstra POI on WS back in March 2016 which may have got his attention.

One item I am unsure of is mentioned in the below article (Jan 1 - 2017) regards to &#8220;critical item&#8221; overlooked from the body of third victim Ciara Glennon (if anyone can shed light on this?).

"The reported missed opportunity was when a critical forensic item from the body of Ms Glennon, murdered in 1997, was overlooked. It was tested in Britain well after 2004 and revealed &#8220;the breakthrough clue&#8221;.

https://thewest.com.au/news/wa/vital-clues-missed-in-hunt-for-claremont-serial-killer-ng-b88342709z

I don't know about that. He's probably thought they've been close before in the earlier years however 20 years on I'd imagine he's gotten pretty sure he's home free.

I know the sentiment of most people prior to the arrest (and on this board) was that the police were as far away as they ever were. Everyone was very frustrated.

 

[lampformypath]

Just saw this from the article below, if it's true then the idea that CSK held his victims somewhere and then disposed of them later/next day seems to be undone? Also the "planned disposal sites", how do they know they were planned and not random?

"Police later told media they believed the killer had used "planned disposal sites" and dumped the women's bodies soon after their abductions."

http://www.watoday.com.au/wa-news/a...d-investigation-unfolded-20161223-gth217.html

 

[Sutton]

... just say as a prelude to gathering/matching DNA they had already a trophy/trophies in their "hushed possession" (possible scenario - eg. SSkeyring discovered by ex, handed in to police) this having then given police warranted suspicion to...

Snipped. I previously dismissed this possibility. But maybe you're onto something here.

Do you lean towards police having SS's key ring over them having jewelry from JR or CG? Or is there an equal chance of any of the three, in your opinion?

 

[janwa]

Being as the car fibres found on Ms Rimmer were lost then found again in 2011 then had to be tracked to the car which changed hands, then the possibility of any of the owners being some how connected had to be investigated, then current owner would have been under scrutiny for a while, the arrest would have to have happened before the car was impounded. 20 years after the fact the police finally moved at the speed of light.

 

[JoWa]

<modsnip>

My theory is they got a hit with familial DNA, which apparently they can get from minor crimes like drink driving charges now. Then they focused on that family and got a used coffee cup out of the trash used by BRE. Once they had confirmation they arrested.


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[BReVeTTe]

Snipped. I previously dismissed this possibility. But maybe you're onto something here.

Do you lean towards police having SS's key ring over them having jewelry from JR or CG? Or is there an equal chance of any of the three, in your opinion?

yes, possibly, but i'm speculating about SSkeyring, sutton, i think it would definitely be the more likely of items — more so than any personalised item of jewelry.
a sunflower keyring might even have been inconspicuously put to general use in the home, because, at that time in the 90's, sunflower paraphernalia was very common ... i mean, popular and inexpensive ... therefore, as a souvenir, it might not need to be secreted as obviously as a very distinctive item of personalised, more valuable jewelry ... we all know police had a replica of the sunflower keyring, they showed us often enough.
theoretically, "if" his ex had found something to turn in, the police would have wanted to protect her, and there was a mention of a restraint order in an early news article, i was questioned by your good self for mentioning it in a comment i'd made on thread ... then i couldn't cite my source which had disappeared from any article i was able to find.
by the end of that day, i noted JoeD(i think?) had posed that someone should ask @paigetaylor(?) what exactly it was that she had wanted to say, and which her lawyers may have possibly asked her to redact ... this is all from my memory and i hope i'm not violating TOS.
i did mention in a defensive comment, that a restraint order is not always indicative of a DV type scenario, but that an order can be put in place for no more reason than to prevent communication during criminal proceedings (i know this because it's a situation i'v been)
the facts i mention are true, however my theory on the SSkeyring is only speculated, but if you think about it, it would certainly lead to charges outside of those existing.


[emoji887]

 

[JoWa]

Just saw this from the article below, if it's true then the idea that CSK held his victims somewhere and then disposed of them later/next day seems to be undone? Also the "planned disposal sites", how do they know they were planned and not random?

"Police later told media they believed the killer had used "planned disposal sites" and dumped the women's bodies soon after their abductions."

http://www.watoday.com.au/wa-news/a...d-investigation-unfolded-20161223-gth217.html

I didn't think they could narrow the time of death down to an exact day after weeks out in the elements, isn't there usually a 24-48 hour window. Especially when found a significant time after death. Soon after could be interpreted as anytime over the next couple of days.


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[JoWa]

yes, possibly, but i'm speculating about SSkeyring, sutton, i think it would definitely be the more likely of items — more so than any personalised item of jewelry.
a sunflower keyring might even have been inconspicuously put to general use in the home, because, at that time in the 90's, sunflower paraphernalia was very common ... i mean, popular and inexpensive ... therefore, as a souvenir, it might not need to be secreted as obviously as a very distinctive item of personalised, more valuable jewelry ... we all know police had a replica of the sunflower keyring, they showed us often enough.
theoretically, "if" his ex had found something to turn in, the police would have wanted to protect her, and there was a mention of a restraint order in an early news article, i was questioned by your good self for mentioning it in a comment i'd made on thread ... then i couldn't cite my source which had disappeared from any article i was able to find.
by the end of that day, i noted JoeD(i think?) had posed that someone should ask @paigetaylor(?) what exactly it was that she had wanted to say, and which her lawyers may have possibly asked her to redact ... this is all from my memory and i hope i'm not violating TOS.
i did mention in a defensive comment, that a restraint order is not always indicative of a DV type scenario, but that an order can be put in place for no more reason than to prevent communication during criminal proceedings (i know this because it's a situation i'v been)
the facts i mention are true, however my theory on the SSkeyring is only speculated, but if you think about it, it would certainly lead to charges outside of those existing.


[emoji887]

I too have noticed articles going missing and many of the old links from WS CSK forums going nowhere. I wonder if WS and other CSK forum users are tipping them off as to articles they need to remove.


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[BReVeTTe]

I too have noticed articles going missing and many of the old links from WS CSK forums going nowhere. I wonder if WS and other CSK forum users are tipping them off as to articles they need to remove.


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i suspect we may be about to find out?


[emoji887]

 

[mandy.maree]

It's very interesting the dates new info was being released by police (2015) . That's basically the time BRE and CG split.


The planned disposal sites is interesting. How could police know it was pre planned? Maybe they were in bush just off walking tracks that you had to be a local to know about (CG seems to have been anyway)

I'm thinking they had to have linked fibres on both bodies to be able to charge BRE with both murders or perhaps there was a specific way in which they were killed/found that proves it had to be one person responsible.

Dna was found on CG I believe. Doubtful any on JR considering the time passed and the weather.

Hope it is all strong enough to prove guilt. Not just stray hair on a jumper or something (unless it's hair that was pulled out of his head from a victim)

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