Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, Jun 1997 #2

[Sophie-Renee]

If the dates and times stated in the timeline are correct ( which they may not be ) see the below -

Marion called on the 1st of August 1997 around 7pm AUS time / 1st of August @ 9am UK Time

Her flight landed in Brisbane at 10am 2nd of August 1997 AUS time.

That gives her 15hrs between the phone call and landing in Brisbane, if she had boarded the plane as soon as she put the phone down.

Minimum flight time from the UK to Brisbane would be a minimum 21hrs allowing for a very quick transfer.

IMO if she was in the UK when she made that call it was either not her on the flight, she was calling from the lay over, the phone call date is incorrect or the incoming flight date is in correct.

happy to have these challenged, math's isn't my strong point

Also am pretty sure it has been said many times that she made the call from a phone box in Tunbridge Wells. Whether this is just from Marion's say so or evidence from the time it was a Tunbridge Wells number who knows. However, I think if Marion had rang from a stopover it could have been very hard to hear especially in those days. Calling from an airport would probably have been hard to disguise. They are such noisy places and I think the quality of a phone box call would have been a lot more relaxed. It seems that Marion was not said to have sounded rushed, talked at length and went into details about things she had been up to. Am not so sure this would have been as easy to do on a stopover. But who knows...

 

[Sophie-Renee]

If the dates and times stated in the timeline are correct ( which they may not be ) see the below -

Marion called on the 1st of August 1997 around 7pm AUS time / 1st of August @ 9am UK Time

Her flight landed in Brisbane at 10am 2nd of August 1997 AUS time.

That gives her 15hrs between the phone call and landing in Brisbane, if she had boarded the plane as soon as she put the phone down.

Minimum flight time from the UK to Brisbane would be a minimum 21hrs allowing for a very quick transfer.

IMO if she was in the UK when she made that call it was either not her on the flight, she was calling from the lay over, the phone call date is incorrect or the incoming flight date is in correct.

happy to have these challenged, math's isn't my strong point

Also am pretty sure it has been said many times that she made the call from a phone box in Tunbridge Wells. Whether this is just from Marion's say so or evidence from the time it was a Tunbridge Wells number who knows. However, I think if Marion had rang from a stopover it could have been very hard to hear especially in those days. Calling from an airport would probably have been hard to disguise. They are such noisy places and I think the quality of a phone box call would have been a lot more relaxed. It seems that Marion was not said to have sounded rushed, talked at length and went into details about things she had been up to. Am not so sure this would have been as easy to do on a stopover. But who knows...

 

[Sophie-Renee]

Not noticed this information included in the timeline but thought it may be useful to work it in to what we already know- or not know as case may be! The sale of Marion's home at 15 Merinda Court was on 23rd May. It went for $165,000. This was after her legal name change, but presumably still went through under Marion Barter. I can only presume this money went into the CBA account and made up part of the money being drawn out in $5,000 increments between August and October . Perhaps the money was still tied up by time she went to the UK? Maybe she decided to come back for some reason , in connection with the time the whole process was complete so as to access this money?

https://www.onthehouse.com.au/property/qld/southport-4215/15-merinda-ct-southport-qld-4215-3298791

 

[Sophie-Renee]

Not noticed this information included in the timeline but thought it may be useful to work it in to what we already know- or not know as case may be! The sale of Marion's home at 15 Merinda Court was on 23rd May. It went for $165,000. This was after her legal name change, but presumably still went through under Marion Barter. I can only presume this money went into the CBA account and made up part of the money being drawn out in $5,000 increments between August and October . Perhaps the money was still tied up by time she went to the UK? Maybe she decided to come back for some reason , in connection with the time the whole process was complete so as to access this money?

https://www.onthehouse.com.au/property/qld/southport-4215/15-merinda-ct-southport-qld-4215-3298791

 

[Garyb]

Not noticed this information included in the timeline but thought it may be useful to work it in to what we already know- or not know as case may be! The sale of Marion's home at 15 Merinda Court was on 23rd May. It went for $165,000. This was after her legal name change, but presumably still went through under Marion Barter. I can only presume this money went into the CBA account and made up part of the money being drawn out in $5,000 increments between August and October . Perhaps the money was still tied up by time she went to the UK? Maybe she decided to come back for some reason , in connection with the time the whole process was complete so as to access this money?

https://www.onthehouse.com.au/property/qld/southport-4215/15-merinda-ct-southport-qld-4215-3298791

You are right. If it was sold on that date there would have been a settlement period in the contract. It could have been weeks before the money was actually payed to her. These settlements are often delayed for many reasons.

 

[Sophie-Renee]

You are right. If it was sold on that date there would have been a settlement period in the contract. It could have been weeks before the money was actually payed to her. These settlements are often delayed for many reasons.

That is what I thought. There has never been much said about the house sale exactly as in dates and how much it went for... which is likely considered quite private, which is fair enough (even though they now publish this information). But I do wonder now whether it was not simply just loose ends to do with the name change being tied up that she may have needed. It may have been this bigger sum of money. Because we now know there was in fact funds touched in the barclays bank while she was in the UK even though she had the Remakel passport. So it can't have been her having no access to money generally that meant she decided to return. For how many days were these 5,000 increments coming out her account back in Australia? I forget. Would be interesting to see if in total it amounted to this $165,000.

 

[KiwiNZ]

in

I believe 3 weeks so approx 15 days @ $5000 about $75,000, she way not have been mortgage free so the original sum may not have been the $165k

 

[Sophie-Renee]

I read somewhere it was 3 and a half weeks or just over 3. 3 weeks at 21 days , say up to 25 would be $125,000. So she may have not taken it all, but certainly made a good dent in it. Like you say, who knows about outstanding mortgage payments on top of this either.

 

[Sophie-Renee]

I believe 3 weeks so approx 15 days @ $5000 about $75,000, she way not have been mortgage free so the original sum may not have been the $165k

Sorry, meant to quote you first!

 

[Intriguedbyintrigue]

You are right. If it was sold on that date there would have been a settlement period in the contract. It could have been weeks before the money was actually payed to her. These settlements are often delayed for many reasons.

The sold dates on real estate sites correspond to the settlement date (date the funds were exchanged for the title). The information comes from council (rates) information which is updated through the registration of the transfer of land (theres an attachment to the transfer from which i think was called a form 22).

In those days the Bank who held the title attended settlement to hand it over to the buyers representative and collected the sale funds which were deposited same day (showing in the account overnight). Sale proceeds are considered 'clear' funds so Marion could have had access to her money next day.

 

[Intriguedbyintrigue]

That is what I thought. There has never been much said about the house sale exactly as in dates and how much it went for... which is likely considered quite private, which is fair enough (even though they now publish this information). But I do wonder now whether it was not simply just loose ends to do with the name change being tied up that she may have needed. It may have been this bigger sum of money. Because we now know there was in fact funds touched in the barclays bank while she was in the UK even though she had the Remakel passport. So it can't have been her having no access to money generally that meant she decided to return. For how many days were these 5,000 increments coming out her account back in Australia? I forget. Would be interesting to see if in total it amounted to this $165,000.

Theres link to a scary but fascinating website Mel1303 posted a little while back which is a guide for people who want to disappear and not be found. The guide suggests people liquidate assets and operate in cash (as it is more difficult to trace). Feom this view perhaps Marion was turning her assets to cash and stockpiling the money so that her subsequent movements were more difficult to trace.

 

[Sophie-Renee]

The sold dates on real estate sites correspond to the settlement date (date the funds were exchanged for the title). The information comes from council (rates) information which is updated through the registration of the transfer of land (theres an attachment to the transfer from which i think was called a form 22).

In those days the Bank who held the title attended settlement to hand it over to the buyers representative and collected the sale funds which were deposited same day (showing in the account overnight). Sale proceeds are considered 'clear' funds so Marion could have had access to her money next day.

Thanks for clarifying that. I assumed it was just the date the sale of the house went through and that money was paid, but would take longer to reach the reciever. If she recieved it straight away , this would have been still a month before she left for the UK. So she must have left an awful lot in her CBA bank when she left. It seems she hastily came back earlier than she either planned or said in order to withdraw the funds. I have to say the idea that she returned for a major reason other than the money, seems hard to believe as she connected with none of her family on her return. My guess is she did need it with plans to set up a new life elsewhere, but something happened to her after this.

 

[Sophie-Renee]

Theres link to a scary but fascinating website Mel1303 posted a little while back which is a guide for people who want to disappear and not be found. The guide suggests people liquidate assets and operate in cash (as it is more difficult to trace). Feom this view perhaps Marion was turning her assets to cash and stockpiling the money so that her subsequent movements were more difficult to trace.

This would make perfect sense. Do we have any idea what sort of funds were left between her CBA and Colonial account that was discovered later? We know that money from Barclays was left in the UK then returned to CBA as uncollected by 2004.

 

[Intriguedbyintrigue]

This would make perfect sense. Do we have any idea what sort of funds were left between her CBA and Colonial account that was discovered later? We know that money from Barclays was left in the UK then returned to CBA as uncollected by 2004.

Marion withdrew the balance and closed her Colonial account in Oct 97 (cant remember exact date sorry). This info was provided by the red cross tracing service. I dont think we know exactly when or how the CBA account was closed but it must have been prior to 2004 when Barclays returned the UK funds because the funds wouldnt have gone to unclaimed monies if Marion had an active account.
Marion may also have had accounts with other financial institutions that we dont know about. Gary Sheehan mentions the teachers credit union when talking about his investigation, but doesnt elaborated on the nature of his enquiry to them.

I think perhaps Marion may have opened an account in her Florabella name at a different bank to the ones she used as Marion and deposited her money there.

 

[Garyb]

The sold dates on real estate sites correspond to the settlement date (date the funds were exchanged for the title). The information comes from council (rates) information which is updated through the registration of the transfer of land (theres an attachment to the transfer from which i think was called a form 22).

In those days the Bank who held the title attended settlement to hand it over to the buyers representative and collected the sale funds which were deposited same day (showing in the account overnight). Sale proceeds are considered 'clear' funds so Marion could have had access to her money next day.

If the sold date of 23 may was final settlement and money was given to her then she must have been planning to change her name and disappear well before then.
Selling a house is a lengthy process even if you take first offer. Does anyone know when the house was put on the market?

Interesting that the name change was finalised a week before settlement and she left exactly a month after.
What day did she give notice at the school?

 

[KateM]

Didnt they say in the podcast there is no record of this in police records. I also thought they spoke to the policeman who had left the police force. He had no recollection of Sally.

So he says...

 

[KateM]

Interestingly the PI they used was the person who runs the lost boys of TSS facebook group about the sexual assault of young boys there. If you read his comments about Marion he has had a bitter falling out with the podcast crew and suggests the son who committed suicide played a part in it all.
Not saying i agree with him but worth reading his comments.

I don't think you can put any weight on BE's comments...

 

[Intriguedbyintrigue]

So he says...

Why doubt him? Sad phone calls to family members would be a regular part of the job. I can understand why among the many cases he was involved, the call to Sally to advise her Mum had been located didnt stand out as memorable. From the timeframe Marion was seemingly easy to locate and from a police perspective she was ok (not in danger) and so no further was required.
Also the ex-police officer who used to work in missing persons said that it was commonplace for files to be marked located without details being recorded.

 

[Intriguedbyintrigue]

If the sold date of 23 may was final settlement and money was given to her then she must have been planning to change her name and disappear well before then.
Selling a house is a lengthy process even if you take first offer. Does anyone know when the house was put on the market?

Interesting that the name change was finalised a week before settlement and she left exactly a month after.
What day did she give notice at the school?

She resigned on 16th of June (final day 20th June). She flew out on 23rd June.

Sally doesnt remember if the family had notice of the flight date. They knew she was going because she'd been talking about going to the UK at least as early as April when the house went up for sale (she said she was selling the house to fund the trip) but when they learned of the 23rd june departure date Sally cant remember.

 

[Sophie-Renee]

She resigned on 16th of June (final day 20th June). She flew out on 23rd June.

Sally doesnt remember if the family had notice of the flight date. They knew she was going because she'd been talking about going to the UK at least as early as April when the house went up for sale (she said she was selling the house to fund the trip) but when they learned of the 23rd june departure date Sally cant remember.

The house went up for sale in April? That is a very small timeframe between then and the 23rd of May when the sale went through and monies recieved. I agree with Garyb in that it takes a very long time for the wheels of legal administration to turn in regards to the sale of a house. It is not uncommon for homes to be on sale for months before ven recieving an offer. It must have been a sellers' market in 1997, because it all seems extremely fast and even then if it went up at the beginning of April it is still only about 6 or so weeks for the whole process to be complete.

I wonder, does Sally know who the house was sold to? Could there be any chance, she already knew someone who would be interested even before she put it on the market but as soon as it was , gave them a first refusal so to speak? I wonder what the house value was at that time, if she made a big loss and simply just wanted it sold whatever the cost, especially if she had no other specific house in mind at that time. If she planned to disappear maybe all she needded was the money - end of. The more the better, but would take the very first offer just to get everything done and dusted. What estate agent handled the sale to process it so fast? I can't help but feel such a small time frame is indicative of a lot of pre planning over a long period of time. When were the problems at TSS first thought to have arisen? She may have felt generally for a long time, it was just a very toxic environment to work in, maybe there had been a lot of internal conflict with TSS and politics that had been going on for a very long time.