GUILTY Australia - Morgan Huxley, 31, stabbed to death, Neutral Bay, NSW, 8 Sept 2013 #2

[BoxHead]

You may well be right. I'm a psych myself (just waiting for my credentials to be verified here on Websleuths) and what I just said before was what I learnt. But there may well be more up-to-date research saying something very different!! Was a few years back that I studied!!!

Awesome. You obviously know what you are talking about. I have a theory on everything. I can't help it

 

[Ausgirl]

Also - did anyone catch the pic in that latest report, of the Cooking SChool car parked right out front of Morgan's apartment block?

Likely nothing to do with DJK, but it gave me a shiver anyway.

I'd say they used Watson St for parking, and walked up Cheal Lane to the rear of the school.

 

[Ausgirl]

I would think that rather than being born without the correct wiring, the neural pathways regarding empathy in sociopaths didn't develop in their early childhood.

Having invested quite a bit of time in researching 'the making of serial killers' to put it very broadly, I tend to agree with this.

In case after case (especially lately, I've had call to look up some very old cases for possible links to later crimes) I see the children who'd later grow into serial killers were abandoned or neglected in infancy, raised by emotionally defunct adults.. Not in -every- case, but it gets to be a bit of a broken record in most. And invariably, they are documented with at least two of the behaviours listed in the McDonald triad, as well as cruelty to other kids or other aberrant stuff that speaks to lack of empathy.

I tend to think it's a bit of a cauldron (I have that word stuck in my head now, thanks Mountain Misst, lol) of various combinations of factors that will then go on to cause a person to kill - but yes, the vast majority of the severely sociopathic whose development had been investigated, all appear to have cause for those pathways to be compromised in early childhood.

In fact, I'm having a hard time recalling off the top of my head those who have been documented as having come from emotionally nurturing environments. Gads, another thing for my to-do list.

eta: One conclusion I have reached is that mothers ought never, EVER dress their boy children as girls. It's shocking, how many of the most prolific killers had that happen to them. Wtf is up with these mothers. Anyway... pet subject /shutsupnow

 

[MsAnais]

Having invested quite a bit of time in researching 'the making of serial killers' so put it very broadly, I tend to agree with this.

In case after case (especially lately, I've had call to look up some very old cases for possible links to later crimes) I see the children who'd later grow into serial killers were abandoned or neglected in infancy, raised by emotionally defunct adults.. Not in -every- case, but it gets to be a bit of a broken record in most. And invariably, they are documented with at least two of the behaviours listed in the McDonald triad, as well as cruelty to other kids or other aberrant stuff that speaks to lack of empathy.

I tend to think it's a bit of a cauldron (I have that word stuck in my head now, thanks Mountain Misst, lol) of various combinations of factors that will then go on to cause a person to kill - but yes, the vast majority of the severely sociopathic whose development had been investigated, all appear to have cause for those pathways to be compromised in early childhood.

In fact, I'm having a hard time recalling off the top of my head those who have been documented as having come from emotionally nurturing environments. Gads, another thing for my to-do list.

Absolutely! And you know, I find it very interesting that the media loves to take the angle of 'they came from a good home' if they can - as if they are just some random monster born into a fabulous family. They tried to do that with Jeffery Dahmer - 'supportive' family, middle class educated father etc - but if you looked a little deeper the parents had violent fights, Jeffery was left alone for long periods unsupervised....the list goes on. Tis simply a great angle for selling the story, rather than based in truth.

 

[MsAnais]

Having invested quite a bit of time in researching 'the making of serial killers' to put it very broadly, I tend to agree with this.

In case after case (especially lately, I've had call to look up some very old cases for possible links to later crimes) I see the children who'd later grow into serial killers were abandoned or neglected in infancy, raised by emotionally defunct adults.. Not in -every- case, but it gets to be a bit of a broken record in most. And invariably, they are documented with at least two of the behaviours listed in the McDonald triad, as well as cruelty to other kids or other aberrant stuff that speaks to lack of empathy.

I tend to think it's a bit of a cauldron (I have that word stuck in my head now, thanks Mountain Misst, lol) of various combinations of factors that will then go on to cause a person to kill - but yes, the vast majority of the severely sociopathic whose development had been investigated, all appear to have cause for those pathways to be compromised in early childhood.

In fact, I'm having a hard time recalling off the top of my head those who have been documented as having come from emotionally nurturing environments. Gads, another thing for my to-do list.

eta: One conclusion I have reached is that mothers ought never, EVER dress their boy children as girls. It's shocking, how many of the most prolific killers had that happen to them. Wtf is up with these mothers. Anyway... pet subject /shutsupnow

It is so funny you said that (only not really funny!) as I am always saying that to people - they then look at me like I'm a total freak to know all of this serial killer info. :blushing:

But yeah, that whole 'dress the boy up as a girl' really messes with their minds. And that's what I'm saying - they're not monsters who are born that way - the worst things imaginable happen to them as children and then everything gets warped.

 

[Mrs G Norris]

Came from a good home in media = middle class or higher, as if somehow financial security is the key to mental health LOL!

 

[Ausgirl]

Absolutely! And you know, I find it very interesting that the media loves to take the angle of 'they came from a good home' if they can - as if they are just some random monster born into a fabulous family. They tried to do that with Jeffery Dahmer - 'supportive' family, middle class educated father etc - but if you looked a little deeper the parents had violent fights, Jeffery was left alone for long periods unsupervised....the list goes on. Tis simply a great angle for selling the story, rather than based in truth.

Dahmer absolutely fascinates me, and there's a massive gulf between his reality and the sort of angle taken in reporting on him (ie, that he was hopelessly delusional, vs. how rationally he actually acted when it came to keeping up appearances/protecting himself) - but I digress, lol. Dun get me started.

Re what you said - Bundy's the same - 'he came from a good home' - when it wasn't really that great. Serious Mummy issues, IIRC.

Good post! And now I'm inspired to look again at the ones from 'good homes'.. they are so few, I've neglected them that way.

 

[Ausgirl]

Came from a good home in media = middle class or higher, as if somehow financial security is the key to mental health LOL!

Bingo, Mrs. G.

Also, parents who aren't single or divorced, or who didn't physically abandon or abuse them.. Like staying married for a long time = a happy family.

eta: I should have said "dress their boys as girls *by default, or against their will*" allowing for boys who identify as girls at a young age and have parental support for that, etc..

 

[BoxHead]

In fact, I'm having a hard time recalling off the top of my head those who have been documented as having come from emotionally nurturing environments.

Only a very very tiny minority of even the most extreme sociopaths kill people. Sociopaths tend to rise to the top in life because they are so inclined to walk over the top of or back stab (metaphorically speaking) anyone in their way.

I find it impossible to believe that all 3% of societies sociopaths suffered from a lack of nurture.

 

[fruity]

Totally off topic but interesting and made me laugh in a 'not so funny' kind of way. I found out a few months ago that teenagers can't be diagnosed as sociopaths because so many regular teenage behaviours fit into the diagnostic criteria for sociopaths. It certainly explains why it's so hard to live with them!

 

[Mrs G Norris]

Only a very very tiny minority of even the most extreme sociopaths kill people. Sociopaths tend to rise to the top in life because they are so inclined to walk over the top of or back stab (metaphorically speaking) anyone in their way.

I find it impossible to believe that all 3% of societies sociopaths suffered from a lack of nurture.

Do they really rise to the top, I thought that was a small minority too, and in reality they underachieve.

 

[Ausgirl]

Only a very very tiny minority of even the most extreme sociopaths kill people. Sociopaths tend to rise to the top in life because they are so inclined to walk over the top of or back stab (metaphorically speaking) anyone in their way.

I find it impossible to believe that all 3% of societies sociopaths suffered from a lack of nurture.

Ah, forgive me, Box. I was off on a bit of a tangent on my pet topic, since we're dealing with a killer here.

I was specifically referring to a link between sociopathic traits in early childhood, lack of nurture, and those who kill.

You're very right to question whether this is so for the rest of the demographic. Frankly, I don't know. Perhaps there's dozens of causes that have different effects at various developmental stages... it'd explain the spectrum we talked about earlier. Something else to delve into.

 

[Northern Beaches]

I am enjoying this discussion on sociopathy.

I believe everyone is sociopathic to some extent as there are so many traits attributed to sociopathy. But like pretty much anything in life sociopathy starts to pose big problems when it becomes imbalanced/excessive.

Some people are probably more likely to be susceptible to developing a deeper level of sociopathy through genetics. Like some on here though I believe that worrying sociopathy can mostly be attributed to how someone was raised or developed.

It's not that long ago that I felt that I could have become a dangerous sociopath. This was mainly because of the way I was raised. I come from a middle class family but my parents have neglected me for my entire life. This had caused a whole host of issues which I have now moved past as I am very fortunate to have a high state of consciousness. I was able to steer clear of a path which I believe would have made me physically hurt people. The person I have made myself into is someone who I am extremely proud of.

 

[FigTree]

I find that last article interesting how they pointed out that DK is not cooperating with police and not telling them anything... This again leads me to believe that police have just assumed he was after sex.

Agreed...
As I've read through the reports, there seems that there is a great deal of assumption from Police regarding what happened. It is all 'alleged'. Its sounds like the Police are piecing it together - but due to JK not talking - the Police have to assume from evidence what happened.

Yet there are conflicting stories here through msm again:

Mr Breton said his client was helping police as much as possible and was unsure if he would fight the charges. SMH
-----
"He's doing his best to assist police with their enquiries and he will continue to do so assuming that they want any further assistance." SMH
-----
The Daily Telegraph understands details outlining the events leading to Huxley's death are included in a fact sheet, but Kelsall has made no admissions and is refusing to talk to police. Telegraph

I think JK is being advised by his lawyer not to talk.
This also makes me think something about the case is not airtight.
Another thought is that it wasn't random - he had a motive - he's not talking about that or anything else. He's covering.
For his Lawyer to sound so confident about bail, and the Police leaning on a fact sheet for their submission without a confession, I wonder how likely it is that he will achieve bail?

.

 

[MsAnais]

I am enjoying this discussion on sociopathy.

I believe everyone is sociopathic to some extent as there are so many traits attributed to sociopathy. But like pretty much anything in life sociopathy starts to pose big problems when it becomes imbalanced/excessive.

Some people are probably more likely to be susceptible to developing a deeper level of sociopathy through genetics. Like some on here though I believe that worrying sociopathy can mostly be attributed to how someone was raised or developed.

It's not that long ago that I felt that I could have become a dangerous sociopath. This was mainly because of the way I was raised. I come from a middle class family but my parents have neglected me for my entire life. This had caused a whole host of issues which I have now moved past as I am very fortunate to have a high state of consciousness. I was able to steer clear of a path which I believe would have made me physically hurt people. The person I have made myself into is someone who I am extremely proud of.

Good point Northern Beaches re the diagnostic traits being broad. The same with many diagnoses - eg. the characteristics of Borderline Personality Disorder are notoriously wide ranging and many women would identify with a lot of them - it then becomes about the degree of the characteristics that someone possesses. Many blurry lines!! Within the mental health community there is always debate about that.

 

[MsAnais]

Came from a good home in media = middle class or higher, as if somehow financial security is the key to mental health LOL!

Absolutely Mrs G!! That's spot on.

A lot of regular people seem to believe that too, though- not just the media. I think that the middle class and up are just better at putting on a socially acceptable veneer for the outside world.

 

[Northern Beaches]

Bingo, Mrs. G.

Also, parents who aren't single or divorced, or who didn't physically abandon or abuse them.. Like staying married for a long time = a happy family.

eta: I should have said "dress their boys as girls *by default, or against their will*" allowing for boys who identify as girls at a young age and have parental support for that, etc..

Assuming that a family is happy because of the length of a marriage is just wrong.

I know that emotions would interfere but for the sake of the child it would be far better for the parents to separate and still respect each other whilst still showing genuine and unconditional love for the child. Initially there would be pain/trauma for the child with the separation but if a separation is handled carefully by the parents then I believe that it could be beneficial in the long run. Having your parents separate would open your perspective so much with regards to relationships and emotions.

I do think that too many people stay in relationships they don't want to be in.

 

[marlywings]

Agreed...
As I've read through the reports, there seems that there is a great deal of assumption from Police regarding what happened. It is all 'alleged'. Its sounds like the Police are piecing it together - but due to JK not talking - the Police have to assume from evidence what happened.

Yet there are conflicting stories here through msm again:

Mr Breton said his client was helping police as much as possible and was unsure if he would fight the charges. SMH
-----
"He's doing his best to assist police with their enquiries and he will continue to do so assuming that they want any further assistance." SMH
-----
The Daily Telegraph understands details outlining the events leading to Huxley's death are included in a fact sheet, but Kelsall has made no admissions and is refusing to talk to police. Telegraph

I think JK is being advised by his lawyer not to talk.
This also makes me think something about the case is not airtight.
Another thought is that it wasn't random - he had a motive - he's not talking about that or anything else. He's covering.
For his Lawyer to sound so confident about bail, and the Police leaning on a fact sheet for their submission without a confession, I wonder how likely it is that he will achieve bail?

.

Using the word "alleged" is standard wording until the accused is either cleared, found guilty or not guilty in court.

I think by now, police would have gathered quite a lot of evidence, especially forensics with DNA found on the accused glasses, satchel etc.

His chances of receiving bail, I think will be zero.

 

[marlywings]

Just posting in a reminder....WS considers parents/families of the accused, victims as well.

So we can't go too far with discussions as to whether or not there was good or bad parenting involved.

 

[Flinders]

7News Yahoo!7 (@Y7News)
12/10/13 1:54 PM
Sydney police say a man's partner found him in his northern beaches unit with four stab wounds to the neck. yhoo.it/GKIPg

Sydney man stabbed four times in neck

October 12, 2013, 2:22 pm

A man has been stabbed repeatedly in the neck on Sydney's northern beaches.

Police say the man in his late 20s was discovered in the kitchen of his Newport unit by his partner after midday on Saturday.

http://au.news.yahoo.com/a/19362240/sydney-man-stabbed-four-times-in-neck/