Found Deceased Australia - Russell Hill, 74, & Carol Clay, 72, Wonnangatta Valley, 20 Mar 2020 #5 *charges*

[TootsieFootsie]

I wonder what GL's mood was at the time. The time period when Russell and Carol went missing I mean.

I mean this time he had an argument with his wife or at least that's what news is saying.

Did he mostly go away after he'd become angry or upset about something. Maybe he was like a powder keg waiting to go off at the slightest thing.

 

[Hag]

Person known to camp regularly in area thought to be where couple disappeared, at some point changes paint colour of vehicle....... Difficult not to notice! How many people change paint colour of vehicle, ever? Apart from purchasing new vehicle...

 

[SouthAussie]

I may be completely wrong, but somehow I can't see him having an accomplice. To me he just doesn't seem the type. But if he did, I think he would be the one giving the orders.

Remember way back when, early in the piece, they were considering that there may have been two perps.

Not sure if they had a specific reason for that, or if it was because two people were murdered and so much clean up was done in a relatively 'short' time (or some other reason).

 

[Amber2017]

I actually took it the other way, that the person giving the info had stopped to ask the bloke in the blue patrol for info on the best campsites. Re-reading, it sounds like it could be either way? Maybe I think I read it wrong.
But if the accused bloke was such an experienced bushman as the coppers say, and knew the area very well, then I kinda find it hard to believe he hadn’t been down into Gatta before.

Not sure what to think here. It sounds like blue patrol guy is the one asking questions to me, simply because it says "he stopped to ask questions" meaning he was the one in the car, but YMMV. It doesn't jell with his local knowledge that's for sure. Perhaps he knew the area to drive through but had never camped in that particular spot.

 

[Arboreal]

I actually took it the other way, that the person giving the info had stopped to ask the bloke in the blue patrol for info on the best campsites. Re-reading, it sounds like it could be either way? Maybe I think I read it wrong.
But if the accused bloke was such an experienced bushman as the coppers say, and knew the area very well, then I kinda find it hard to believe he hadn’t been down into Gatta before.

I too was confused by who was asking directions. It points to something the police have not yet released: when the accused left on his trip and when he claims he arrived in the valley. [Perhaps it has?] I do recall police saying that the accused claimed not to have seen or spoken to Mr Hill or Ms Clay.
How likely would it be that a person unfamiliar with the area would know a way out of the valley by the Myrtleford gate? Or choose that way our rather than the Zeka track, which a few people here have said is very rough but could be traversed with a trailer.
We've spent a few hours poring over some maps of the area (Hema, Rooftop). Another friend had been camping there before covid.
I do not know how accurate the road conditions markings are, E, M D on the Hema. But is is correct that even the easiest way out in the morning would have involved fording a couple of creeks?
The more I read about this, the more one's admiration for VicPol increases.

 

[Kemug]

I am finding a couple of possibilities in this case totally incompatible - A) GL is a SK, and B) he is a man with a temper who snapped and killed. I just don't see how he can be both - one involves at least some planning for several events, and the other is totally the opposite, IMO. It seems that GL is definitely our man, at least for RH and CC, but is he also a SK?

 

[TootsieFootsie]

I don't believe he is a serial killer.

Just my opinion.

 

[srper2]

I don't see that he would be a serial killer either. I also can't understand how he/anyone could get to the point of murdering two people, hiding their bodies and going back home like nothing happened. To accidentally kill one person, but two at the same time, highly unlikely.

 

[Sher Lock]

Good question re s/k.

So what constitutes being a s/k?

Wikipedia's description is:
"A serial killer is typically a person who murders three or more people, usually in service of abnormal psychological gratification, with the murders taking place over more than a month and including a significant period of time between them. While most authorities set a threshold of three murders, others extend it to four or lessen it to two."

Edited to be more generalized.

 

[Awakening]

Hello everyone, my first post on this forum. I've been following the case for quite a while but not really wanted to add much as I have little knowledge, but one thing I do know about is hunting lol.
There are all different types of hunters, and different reasons people hunt. Without going into verbose explanations, a good hunter is firstly responsible wrt safety, other people and the environment, and secondly respectful of the animal. I was always taught that if you want to take an animal, you either use it for food or for preserving/selling skins, antlers or whatever (never one of my likes) and you always, always dispose of the remains thoughtfully. Never leave a carcass just rotting in the bush.
Having said that, there are a lot of irresponsible and idiotic shooters out there who like killing animals for fun or boosting their egos. Sadly they give us all a very bad rep. Killing a deer for its antlers and then leaving it to die makes my blood boil. I am sorry for the distress that causes to anyone else who finds it like that. We are not all like those people.
Guns are dangerous and should be in the hands of safe and careful shooters, but it doesn't always work out like that. The checks you have to go through are quite extensive, but people slip through the cracks, much like the airline industry also.

I have shot varmints (pests) for pest control as the farmer wanted them eradicated, or we have been on safaris up in NT where pigs are a real nuisance and need to be shot. Even then we would only shoot what was allowed, mainly older boars. The indigenous communities wanted them shot as well, and the fees went to them, so it benefited everybody. But I do understand that it is not everyone's cup of tea, and if this post upsets anyone or distresses them I will remove it.

I was really hoping someone would give us this insight so thank you.

I've only done some fishing, but the rules and etiquette sound similar.

You limit the animals suffering, you throw back undersize, you don't exceed your limits, you be respectful.

There was an incident where some young guys were clowning around with a fish carcass and they got an earful from the older fisherman.

The gutting and filleting of the fish is a part of the job and whilst someone may admire someones butchering skills, it's not the point of fishing. So anyone overly enjoying that part or being disrespectful would be viewed as odd.

Whilst luck comes into it, the ability to reel in fish and the skill and muscle and fitness that is required for that particular fish is what is admired, not the butchery.

So if GL did anything that was against the generally accepted hunting rules, then its possible other hunters knew about it, and may come forward now they know his face and name?

 

[Awakening]

I don't know if GL is guilty of this crime or not.

The information in MSM is not enough for me to convict him.

But whether it's GL or someone else, I'm open minded to the possibility that the person has killed before or is a SK. I also think it's possible it was a one off. I really can't be sure at this time.

But there are different types of killers and some are only triggered when they are angry. Not all SK are well planned or sexually motivated IMO.

"We've grown used to serial killers motivated by sexual compulsion, and we know about mass murderers who strike out in anger, but we don’t often hear about the blend of these types: the angry killer who strikes on separate unrelated occasions to express frustration, exert control, or deliver payback.

Many mass murderers fail to digest life’s insults and thus allow rage to build. Similarly, some serial killers have tended these same hot embers. Some have described rage-fueled murder as a “red out.” They "see red," and lose themselves in it. They reportedly need to act and cannot hold back.

Like mass murderers, anger-motivated serial killers seek control. They ruminate, feel mistreated, dwell on the past, and minimize their role while exaggerating blame. Those “others” who "caused" their distress become fantasy targets."

Source: Power Assertive Murder

 

[5W's]

Carol Clay and Russell Hill search includes Great Alpine gold mine area

Officers have taped off sections of the Grant Historic Area, and installed road blocks to prevent further chances of anyone tampering with a potential crime scene. But they do not yet have a precise location in the bush where the pair could have been left.

They may need search and rescue crews to abseil down the shafts of old gold mines.

Now LE has to look through shafts and old mines, I wonder what kind of conditions they are in. It's going to be challenging terrain for sure.

 

[5W's]

I don't see that he would be a serial killer either. I also can't understand how he/anyone could get to the point of murdering two people, hiding their bodies and going back home like nothing happened. To accidentally kill one person, but two at the same time, highly unlikely.

A person who doesn't care and is covering their tracks. The latter part takes some thought. This case IMO isn't as simple as it may appear as in accidental shooting. In the few hours after the shooting would animals have scattered the remains? Or did the shooter move the bodies. If it was accidental why not get out of dodge quickly or ASAP and leave the bodies where they are. There is some sort of motive here that evidence is being destroyed as in tent fire. MOO.

 

[DRT]

I don't know if GL is guilty of this crime or not.

The information in MSM is not enough for me to convict him.

But whether it's GL or someone else, I'm open minded to the possibility that the person has killed before or is a SK. I also think it's possible it was a one off. I really can't be sure at this time.

But there are different types of killers and some are only triggered when they are angry. Not all SK are well planned or sexually motivated IMO.

"We've grown used to serial killers motivated by sexual compulsion, and we know about mass murderers who strike out in anger, but we don’t often hear about the blend of these types: the angry killer who strikes on separate unrelated occasions to express frustration, exert control, or deliver payback.

Many mass murderers fail to digest life’s insults and thus allow rage to build. Similarly, some serial killers have tended these same hot embers. Some have described rage-fueled murder as a “red out.” They "see red," and lose themselves in it. They reportedly need to act and cannot hold back.

Like mass murderers, anger-motivated serial killers seek control. They ruminate, feel mistreated, dwell on the past, and minimize their role while exaggerating blame. Those “others” who "caused" their distress become fantasy targets."

Source: Power Assertive Murder

I agree about the lack of information in MSM and from police statements.

What we know is the police feel they have enough information to convince a prosecutor that they are likely to get a conviction. The testing of possible DNA and other evidence, possible discovery of the alleged victims and the missing items such as sleeping bags, mobile phones, the drone as well as the trailer could possible lead to strengthening of the evidence.

There has been suggestions of motives and events in various stages of the investigation but we have little idea of what occurred and why police believe they have enough evidence. The only real evidence of a crime that there I have seen is the burnt camping equipment.

The only thing that I have got from police is that CC and RH are presumed deceased.

 

[TootsieFootsie]

I should have explained it better. I don't think there will be a stash of further bodies out there, apart from Russell and Carol.

But people murder people all the time and go on to live their lives like nothing happened, it happens all the time.

I don't believe that either Russell or Carol were killed accidentally.

I have no idea if he's innocent or guilty but the Police must have had enough evidence to arrest him.

I don't see that he would be a serial killer either. I also can't understand how he/anyone could get to the point of murdering two people, hiding their bodies and going back home like nothing happened. To accidentally kill one person, but two at the same time, highly unlikely.

 

[5W's]

The accused man has a wife and kids. Pretty tricky to bury things at your residence with a family about.

Maybe small things that his family wouldn't catch on. Maybe he erased video footage around the time he was burying items and in his direction so his family wouldn't suspect anything. He must've lied to his family about where he was going around the time of the murders and why he would've painted his vehicle. I suspect his lies made his family clueless to what was really going on. All MOO, everything.

 

[Kemug]

Thanks for your thoughts re SKs folks. I suspect that in the coming months (years?) we are going to learn a lot more about psychology! I tend to agree with those of you who don't think that GL is a SK. On the other hand, I could believe that he has killed before. MOO. The whole scenario to me doesn't look like a complete amateur.

 

[5W's]

Only the Daily Mail has reported "It is understood Lynn has told police where he dumped their bodies in the bush".

No other media outlets have reported this (yet). Can we rely on what the Daily Mail has reported?

A brief of evidence against Lynn will not be ready until at least April 19.

Next court appearance May 31.

I wouldn't put them in that way because in the past they have reported some cases with a lot of detail including photos. One really understood what took place. I very much appreciated those as in the kidnapped teenager Carly Gloss (or is her name Karly) I would have to look up her story in the Daily Mail. They detailed her case a lot. It was a terrifying case from Wisconsin in 2018 (not 2019 I believe.) Forgive me if I got details wrong of her case it was terrifying and extremely sad. I followed her case everyday until she escaped and was safe.

 

[BrumbyJack]

Why does it have to be shooting? (deleted my theory coz I don’t really know what we are and aren’t allowed to say anymore) Whatever happened, the next several months sure are gonna be interesting.

A person who doesn't care and is covering their tracks. The latter part takes some thought. This case IMO isn't as simple as it may appear as in accidental shooting. In the few hours after the shooting would animals have scattered the remains? Or did the shooter move the bodies. If it was accidental why not get out of dodge quickly or ASAP and leave the bodies where they are. There is some sort of motive here that evidence is being destroyed as in tent fire. MOO.

 

[5W's]

I wouldn't stake anything I valued on the reliability of the DM. And why would a UK paper have an inside scoop that Australian news sources don't have?

This is the quoted police statement:
"Our efforts to locate the remains of Russell and Carol will continue," Assistant Commissioner Hill said.

He said detectives identified a crime scene on Thursday morning within the Great Alpine area and forensic specialists would start searching at the location in the coming days.

But Assistant Commissioner Hill declined to reveal the exact location.

"Police are hopeful that we will be able to locate the deceased and provide ultimate closure to the families," he said.
Renewed search for remains as police zero in on 'crime scene' following pilot's arrest

IMO, there could be other evidence, other than a confession - such as Lynn visiting this location when he was under surveillance, or on some previous occassion as shown by phone data...

ETA: also, if somebody tells police the location of bodies, they are usually required to lead police right there, before they are locked up for the crime....

Under surveillance then LE would have to secure the area so evidence isn't compromised so IMO I think this important aspect has to be taken into consideration.