Australia - Russell Hill & Carol Clay Murdered While Camping - Wonnangatta Valley, 2020 #7

[SouthAussie]

"Melanie Archer, a pathologist and entomologist, told the Supreme Court she was tasked with examining "co-mingled human remains" found at Union Spur Track close to two years after the fatal incident.

Dr Archer said more than 2,000 skeletal remains were found at the scene but there was "no soft tissue left to examine".

She said the fragmented skeletons and damage from fire meant pathologists could not determine the cause of death of Mr Hill and Ms Clay.

"You're left as 'undetermined' as your only choice," Dr Archer said."

'Evidence has been obliterated': Pathologist unable to determine cause of campers Russell Hill and Carol Clay's death

A Victorian Supreme Court jury has heard the remains of slain campers Russell Hill and Carol Clay were so damaged by fire that an expert could not determine how they died.

www.abc.net.au

 

[drsleuth]

https://www.news.com.au/national/courts-law/greg-lynn-trial-no-identifiable-cause-of-death-for-russell-hill-and-carol-clay/news-story/5cc761857ec0686feafef3ad9f803635

Called to give evidence, forensic pathologist Dr Melanie Archer told the jury more than 2000 bone fragments located in December 2021 were identified as the missing pair.

Questioned by prosecutor Kathryn Hamill, Dr Archer said it wasn’t possible to determined a cause of death.

“So the problem for the forensic pathologist was that the material needed has been obliterated by the change,” she said.

“Whatever has caused these deaths has been masked by this burning and fragmentation.”

 

[TootsieFootsie]

For example in the Melissa Caddick disappearance case:

Areas with expensive homes would be more likely to have CCTV.

 

[JudgeJudi]

Experts were unable to determine the cause of death because fire had obliterated any evidence.

<modsnip - snipped for copyright Rules - Copyright Rules>

Fire obliterated any chance of working out campers’ cause of death, court told

 

[Sher Lock]

I wonder how the suspect has managed to 'fragment' (like crushed to smithereens) the bones so much that they are virtually useless for forensic testing. This must have taken quite some time to achieve and definitely not done in an afternoon. The supposed 'choices' made after RH & CC's death are horrifying and I can't imagine anyone other than a deranged psycho doing something like this. I don't believe this was done by someone who acted on impulse & a highly stressed mind as it was, after all, six months later!

All my own opinion at this stage.

 

[JBowie]

I don't believe this was done by someone who acted on impulse & a highly stressed mind as it was, after all, six months later!

Spot on!

 

[Sabex]

I wonder how the suspect has managed to 'fragment' (like crushed to smithereens) the bones so much that they are virtually useless for forensic testing. This must have taken quite some time to achieve and definitely not done in an afternoon. The supposed 'choices' made after RH & CC's death are horrifying and I can't imagine anyone other than a deranged psycho doing something like this. I don't believe this was done by someone who acted on impulse & a highly stressed mind as it was, after all, six months later!

All my own opinion at this stage.

Fire makes bone fragile. I bet whoever did this hoped that the fire would just turn them to ash; then later turned to a sledgehammer or suchlike when he discovered bones and teeth still remained.

MOO

 

[JBowie]

I bet whoever did this hoped that the fire would just turn them to ash

If so, they'd be quite mistaken. Dousing bodies with kerosene is hardly a pyre:

"Studies show that the temperatures at the core of a pyre may exceed 800 C for several hours. Nevertheless, large amounts of fuel are necessary to maintain the cremation process until most of the organic matter is destroyed."

https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/sites/default/files/2022-01/Fire%20Safety%20Journal%20%282018%29.pdf

 

[Kemug]

“Whatever has caused these deaths has been masked by this burning and fragmentation.”

Mission accomplished then.

 

[discostu]

I wonder how the suspect has managed to 'fragment' (like crushed to smithereens) the bones so much that they are virtually useless for forensic testing. This must have taken quite some time to achieve and definitely not done in an afternoon. The supposed 'choices' made after RH & CC's death are horrifying and I can't imagine anyone other than a deranged psycho doing something like this. I don't believe this was done by someone who acted on impulse & a highly stressed mind as it was, after all, six months later!

All my own opinion at this stage.

I just can’t understand how someone who was innocent would go to these lengths.. like if he had called 000 after two accidental deaths, even if it wasn’t in the immediate aftermath because he was freaking out etc, I can’t see how that could have turned out worse for him than this.

The fact that he could see the news reports for over a year, with pleas from family members missing their loved ones, and he had ample opportunity to come forward before he was arrested but he chose to live with it and just hope he’d get away with it says so much imo.

He must have genuinely believed he’d get away with it, whatever his involvement.

 

[JBowie]

I just can’t understand how someone who was innocent would go to these lengths.

Indications of psychopathy, IMO.

 

[AussieIan]

The fact that he could see the news reports for over a year, with pleas from family members missing their loved ones, and he had ample opportunity to come forward before he was arrested but he chose to live with it and just hope he’d get away with it says so much imo.

People make decisions to live with something they've done hoping they just get away with it on a much smaller scale all the titime.

I dare say many of us have something in our past we chose not to own up to and just let it quietly slide into the darkness of history.

 

[discostu]

People make decisions to live with something they've done hoping they just get away with it on a much smaller scale all the titime.

I dare say many of us have something in our past we chose not to own up to and just let it quietly slide into the darkness of history.

For sure.. but hopefully for most of us those somethings don’t involve the wilful destruction of human bodies in order to avoid people finding out we *didn’t* kill them..

 

[SouthAussie]

For sure.. but hopefully for most of us those somethings don’t involve the wilful destruction of human bodies in order to avoid people finding out we *didn’t* kill them..

He certainly would be more believable if there were forensics that could help with his story. Particularly what caused Russell's death. Was it a knife, or a gun?

Instead the police had to spend 3 days sifting dirt to find as much of Russell and Carol as they could find.
(as per the podcast I listened to last night)

‎The Missing Campers Trial on Apple Podcasts

‎True Crime · 2024

podcasts.apple.com

 

[SouthAussie]

It would be difficult for a gun linked to the deaths of campers Russell Hill and Carol Clay to go off accidentally, a forensic police officer has told a double-murder trial.

Griffiths undertook testing on the 12-gauge Barathrum Arms shotgun, taken from Lynn’s home, including a safety function test and trigger pull test, the court heard. A trigger pull test measures the amount of force that has to be applied to the trigger to fire a shot.

Lynn’s trigger pull was 3.9 kilograms, slightly above the industry standard of between 1.8kg and 3.6kg.

“Being higher means [having] to pull [the] trigger harder to discharge the gun,” Griffiths told the court on Tuesday.

Greg Lynn trial: shotgun found at former pilot’s home difficult to fire by accident, court told

Expert says gun didn’t discharge when dropped during test, after Lynn pleaded not guilty to murdering Russell Hill and Carol Clay

www.theguardian.com

 

[SouthAussie]

"I just wonder could you point it the other way?" Justice Michael Croucher asked.

"You're frightening the journalists.

"Just to make clear to everyone in the court, the gun is not loaded and the magazine has no cartridges in it," the judge later added.

Shotgun alleged to have killed Carol Clay shown to jurors in Greg Lynn murder trial

Police ballistics specialist Paul Griffiths told the court he conducted tests to test the plausibility of Mr Lynn's account of events, but had not watched the police interview with the accused.

www.abc.net.au

 

[TootsieFootsie]

You should never ever point a gun at anyone, even if you think it's not loaded.

 

[JudgeJudi]

A ballistics expert, Griffiths, examined the shotgun allegedly used and it was shown to the jury. He said:

• It had a heavier than average trigger weight and didn’t accidentally discharge in tests.
• It had a cross-bolt safety mechanism with a heavier trigger weight than average.
• The magazine had to be manually loaded before it could be fired.
• The bolt-action firearm had to be cocked before releasing the safety mechanism and pulling the trigger.

He said it appeared the gun had been “set up for a left-hander”, to which GL could be seen mouthing “”.

He was asked how the removable box magazine, which contained cartridges, was attached to the shotgun. GL shook his head and took notes using his right hand.

He did a drop test as part of the safety function test. The gun passed all the tests and did not discharge.

Dann asked him “How high was the gun when it discharged? Where were GL’s hands on the gun when it discharged? What angle was the gun on when it discharged?” but Griffiths had no idea as he only had limited information.

Two years after the murders, Griffiths did a second search of the campsite and found the remnants of a 12-gauge shotgun cartridge that had been through a “significant” impact.

Bolt-action shotgun police say killed campers shown to jury

 

[Kemug]

You should never ever point a gun at anyone, even if you think it's not loaded.

Just ask Alec Baldwin.

 

[SouthAussie]

There is a HS article (paywalled) with testimony about all of their phones. Published yesterday, I think we have seen most of this info previously - but there a few bits I haven't seen before.

(paraphrased)

GL
- his phone was off/in flight mode/flat battery for two days (46 hours) when he went to obliterate Russell and Carol's remains
- last connected in Thomastown at 11.42am on Nov 18, 2020
- reconnected near Rowville and Heathmont about 9.48am on Nov 20, 2020

RH & CC
- their phones were in Pakenham on the morning of Mar 19, 2020
- both phones lost signal after last connecting at Hotham Heights around midday the same day
- Carol's phone never came back on
- Russell's phone came back on as it travelled along the Great Alpine Road at 9:30am on Mar 21, 2020 (the morning after the murders)
- Russell's phone was alleged by GL to be disposed of near where its last signal was, but the phone has never been found

The rest of the article is about the forensic testimony that we saw in other articles yesterday.

https://www.heraldsun.com.au/truecrimeaustralia/police-courts-victoria/missing-campers-remains-were-completely-obliterated/news-story/431a98933eccfce00db30ee3f94cc810?amp