Australia Australia - William Tyrrell, 3, Kendall, NSW, 12 Sep 2014 - #70

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JLZ

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There may or may not have been any prior physical abuse, but what about emotional abuse? The FFC apparently has a mental health condition...
To go back to your question of whether a child who alleges abuse should instantly be removed from the family, what is your opinion about that? And should it be the same for natural families and foster care?
 

KateM

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To go back to your question of whether a child who alleges abuse should instantly be removed from the family, what is your opinion about that? And should it be the same for natural families and foster care?
The FFC is using the mental health as her defence, so I don't think that the abuse is alleged. They lost William who was in their care, and then this. Of course they should lose the child.
 

JLZ

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Well, I was asking a general question. I personally think that any child in foster care should be removed if they are subjected to any sort of abuse. But let's face it, where are on here discussing the William Tyrrell case, are we not?
Fair enough. I was thinking about your question for a while and found it interesting and difficult--not whether they should be removed if definitely abused, but how to react to a (possibly true, possibly false) allegation.
 

bearbear

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To go back to your question of whether a child who alleges abuse should instantly be removed from the family, what is your opinion about that? And should it be the same for natural families and foster care?

Fair enough. I was thinking about your question for a while and found it interesting and difficult--not whether they should be removed if definitely abused, but how to react to a (possibly true, possibly false) allegation.
i also gave it some thought, but its a really difficult question, especially when we want to always believe and support the child, so i guess would have to be on a case by case scenario
 

seekingjustice**

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You don't know what a 3 y.o. is capable of. To leave your eyes off a child for 5 minutes or longer, is enough time for an accident etc. to happen to a young child in a strange environment. It was an unfenced property, opposite a forest.
ITA - child abuse includes the failure of a parent or caregiver to adequately ensure the safety of a child which results in physical injury and significant harm to the child. I can see this happened in William's case. Regardless of whether he was killed by an accidental fall or kidnapped by an unknown offender, the fact is that he was left outside unsupervised for a period of some time. A 3 year old child requires constant supervision - just like at 3 year old kindy, there is always a teacher or a teacher's aid watching the children. The Foster carers failed in their duty to keep him safe IMO.
 

SouthAussie

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i also gave it some thought, but its a really difficult question, especially when we want to always believe and support the child, so i guess would have to be on a case by case scenario

It is determined on a case by case basis.

According to to FACS/D&J procedures, I think we can presume that when William disappeared, the other minor child was not considered to be at risk.
And for 7+ years, the other minor child was not considered to be at risk.

Something has happened, charges alleging assault were laid, the other minor child was removed. There seems to have been no debate. It all happened quickly. The police laid charges, she was removed.

 

SouthAussie

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ITA - child abuse includes the failure of a parent or caregiver to adequately ensure the safety of a child which results in physical injury and significant harm to the child. I can see this happened in William's case. Regardless of whether he was killed by an accidental fall or kidnapped by an unknown offender, the fact is that he was left outside unsupervised for a period of some time. A 3 year old child requires constant supervision - just like at 3 year old kindy, there is always a teacher or a teacher's aid watching the children. The Foster carers failed in their duty to keep him safe IMO.

I think anyone would be very hard pushed to find a parent who has not taken their eyes off their 3½ year old in what they consider a safe environment.
 

JBowie

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I think anyone would be very hard pushed to find a parent who has not taken their eyes off their 3½ year old in what they consider a safe environment.

I guess it comes down to using judgement as to what can be considered 'safe'.

The FGM has been quoted as saying that William was 'full of beans' and 'jumping out of his skull' on the morning in question. Not the sort of 3 year old one would want to leave unsupervised IMO.
 

SouthAussie

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I truly don't know how anyone could say that the backyard at the Foster GM's house was 'safe'. The balcony looks extremely dangerous to me.

Do we know that safety precautions weren't taken with regard to the balcony? Whether or not it was accessible in that time period? Or is it possible/probable that the adults were aware of certain household risks and locked the balcony access, and took any other measures that needed to be taken? So that everyone could relax a bit.

Parents of young children generally quickly assess their surroundings to look for dangers. It seems like a natural thing to do.

imo
 

KateM

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ITA - child abuse includes the failure of a parent or caregiver to adequately ensure the safety of a child which results in physical injury and significant harm to the child. I can see this happened in William's case. Regardless of whether he was killed by an accidental fall or kidnapped by an unknown offender, the fact is that he was left outside unsupervised for a period of some time. A 3 year old child requires constant supervision - just like at 3 year old kindy, there is always a teacher or a teacher's aid watching the children. The Foster carers failed in their duty to keep him safe IMO.
I'm so glad that someone else here can see that. The FP's have never admitted to neglect, just as Kate and Gerry McCann didn't. As a result, both Madeleine and William are not here to tell the story... :(
 

seekingjustice**

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Do we know that safety precautions weren't taken with regard to the balcony? Whether or not it was accessible in that time period? Or is it possible/probable that the adults were aware of certain household risks and locked the balcony access, and took any other measures that needed to be taken? So that everyone could relax a bit.

Parents of young children generally quickly assess their surroundings to look for dangers. It seems like a natural thing to do.

imo
We don't know but I'm assuming that there wasn't any safety precautions taken because I remember seeing photos and TV footage at the time of his disappearance and there didn't appear to be any type of guard rail or safety fence around the steep balcony side.
 

sleepinoz

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We don't know but I'm assuming that there wasn't any safety precautions taken because I remember seeing photos and TV footage at the time of his disappearance and there didn't appear to be any type of guard rail or safety fence around the steep balcony side.

IMO most have taken the view of the 'gate' to the steep balcony being open from the MFC's walk through that was at least 6 days later, I don't think I've ever seen a picture or video of that particular gate on the day of Williams disappearance. If anyone has one please post it.
 

SouthAussie

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We don't know but I'm assuming that there wasn't any safety precautions taken because I remember seeing photos and TV footage at the time of his disappearance and there didn't appear to be any type of guard rail or safety fence around the steep balcony side.

Honestly, I don't think there has ever been any vision of the balcony access from that day.

We have found photos taken at various points in time, but never for then.

If you know where any such photos are and can link them, I am sure lots of us would like to see them.
Because AFAIK we have no idea whether that balcony was accessible to William on that day or not.
 

KateM

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IMO most have taken the view of the 'gate' to the steep balcony being open from the MFC's walk through that was at least 6 days later, I don't think I've ever seen a picture or video of that particular gate on the day of Williams disappearance. If anyone has one please post it.
In this police walk through with the MFC, the gate to the high balcony is clearly open.

 

SouthAussie

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In this police walk through with the MFC, the gate to the high balcony is clearly open.


6 days later, as was mentioned in the referenced post. While a full scale search was going on and police were on the property.
What we are asking about is photos from that day, because if there are any we have never found them. We have looked.
 

katydid23

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6 days later, as was mentioned in the referenced post. What we are asking about is photos from that day, because if there are any we have never found them. We have looked.
Yep, this was 6 days later.

It makes me wonder---if William had actually fallen from that balcony 6 days earlier, would that gate still be open when FM was doing her walk through, since Wm's sister was still at the home?
 

drsleuth

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In this police walk through with the MFC, the gate to the high balcony is clearly open.


This video isn't from the 12/9/2014.

I think it's pretty safe to assume, that numerous people , including police officers, would have been on that balcony on the 12/9/2014 & the days later & any of them could have left that gate open IMO
 
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