Australia Australia - William Tyrrell Disappeared While Playing in Yard - Kendall (NSW) - #74

[SouthAussie]

I cannot give you the timing of it now, but I thought that many months before the dig, the coroner was just waiting on something from the police so that she could make her findings and was somewhat frustrated by further information that police gave her. Yes these searches are under the order of the coroner, but propelled by police IMO. The police may have even requested further searches that the coroner could not justify possibly. IMO

I posted a link further back that says David Laidlaw is the officer in charge of Coronial investigations, and has been for a long time.
He is overseeing William's case, or was the most recent person that we heard was overseeing it, and William's case is in the hands of the Coroner.


"Becoming Manager of the Coronial Investigation Team in 2007, DCI Laidlaw acts as liaison between NSW Police, the Coroner and NSW Health Pathology." Link


If the Coroner does issue an open finding in this case, which I suspect is a definite possibility, I think we all want to know that she has exhausted every single avenue.
That FM has been investigated to the fullest.
That every recording made in PS' house has been listened to carefully.
That FA couldn't possibly have been in Kendall that morning - even though 'Steve' said FA had use of a car and took William
That GO definitely did not visit Benaroon Drive that morning, even though he was in Kendall, then drive away with a little boy in his car.
Etc, etc, etc.

 

[sleepinoz]

We all need to face it - there is no evidence, if there was there would be charges.

I actually agree with what was said earlier in the thread, it will be like the Beaumont's - nothing - nada.

Maybe in years to come with the tech today we may get some results. In the forseeable (is that a word?) future there will be nothing to resolve this. Poor William.

 

[SLouTh]

We can’t give up William, and nor can the Police ..

Someone has to know what happened, and where he is! Someone has to have seen something!!

A 3y/o cannot just disappear into thin air! William cannot end up like the Beaumont Children (absolutely heartbreaking ) with the amount of technology available today, compared to 1966.

JMO

 

[SouthAussie]

We can’t give up William, and nor can the Police ..

Someone has to know what happened, and where he is! Someone has to have seen something!!

A 3y/o cannot just disappear into thin air! William cannot end up like the Beaumont Children (absolutely heartbreaking ) with the amount of technology available today, compared to 1966.

JMO

I am reading a biography about Ron Iddles called The Good Cop by Justine Ford. Ron says there are some crimes that are unsolvable, unless new technologies arise that help the police. Eg: DNA profiling did not exist when he started his career, but it has since helped in cold cases.

Ron's very first murder case (Maria James in 1980) is still not solved. I think there has been at least a couple of inquests - last coronial findings handed down in March 2022. It haunts him to this day.

While the Beaumont children disappeared in 1966, SAPOL has never given up on them. There was another search for them as recently as 2018. Another big dig, following geographic testing of an area by Flinders University. Link

The police won't give up. But the daily investigations slow right down, and when new information comes in, or a new technology is released, they look at the case again. It is not permanently shelved.

Which could be why Police Commissioner, Katarina Carroll, said that we must be patient, solving this case might take a long time (or words to that effect, because I cannot find the exact link any more, these older links are timing out now. If I find it again I will post it).

imo

 

[JBowie]

He says there are some crimes that are unsolvable, unless new technologies arise that help the police. Eg: DNA profiling did not exist when he started his career, but it has since helped in cold cases.

Not necessarily a crime, but a recent DNA-assisted cold case mystery in Oz is the identification of 'Somerton Man':

'It's a sad story': Family of Somerton Man reveal why he was found dead on the beach

For seven decades the Somerton Man was simply known by his anonymous autopsy photo. But now he has a name — Charles Webb. And for the first time his relatives explain the answers were in a family photo album all along.

www.abc.net.au

 

[SouthAussie]

Which could be why Police Commissioner, Katarina Carroll, said that we must be patient, solving this case might take a long time (or words to that effect, because I cannot find the exact link any more, these older links are timing out now. If I find it again I will post it).

imo

Well, I had that screwed up! Katarina Carroll is the Qld Police Commissioner. No wonder I couldn't find a link!

Karen Webb, the NSW Police Commissioner, said she's "confident there will be a result but it will take time". Link



A spokesperson for Karen Webb said “If anyone wants to know the truth and find out what happened, it’s her." “She doesn’t get involved in the politics and people. The commissioner I know just wants the facts, the truth.” Link

Michael Kennedy, former detective and now Associate Professor at the University of New England. said "NSW had “gone down the path of eroding due process for the sake of getting an outcome ..... police have been expected to get outcomes that aren’t possible” Link

NSW MP Paul Lynch said “Something seems quite wrong with the way the presumption of innocence has been trashed here."
“Focusing on only one alleged suspect gives a whiff of trying to build a particular case rather than investigating all avenues,” he said.
“I’d hate to think this is the result of how investigative agencies have responded to the enormous and legitimate public interest in this case.” Link

 

[nightrider17]

https://www.news.com.au/national/nsw-act/news/william-tyrrell-professional-tracker-says-police-shouldnt-discount-possibility-that-clues-were-missed-during-initial-search/news-story/f8b23dec7d2599381e1d1363729fc14c

If WT was missing from an earlier time than was originally thought or reported - possibly he ventured further away than the search party would have anticipated.

They found that boy AJ who was 3 years old - and his mother said he wasn't a wanderer and I think may not have been very familiar with that property either.

I know they said WT had asthma but maybe he was able to go further than estimated by those at the time. MOO

 

[SouthAussie]

https://www.news.com.au/national/nsw-act/news/william-tyrrell-professional-tracker-says-police-shouldnt-discount-possibility-that-clues-were-missed-during-initial-search/news-story/f8b23dec7d2599381e1d1363729fc14c

If WT was missing from an earlier time than was originally thought or reported - possibly he ventured further away than the search party would have anticipated.

They found that boy AJ who was 3 years old - and his mother said he wasn't a wanderer and I think may not have been very familiar with that property either.

I know they said WT had asthma but maybe he was able to go further than estimated by those at the time. MOO

I think it is very possible that William wandered further and further away, perhaps even while searchers were looking for him close by.
And, so many times I have read that small children curl up, they fall asleep, they don't come out when strangers are calling.

AJ was lucky to have been found, due to a search helicopter spotting a movement and then seeing him drinking from a creek. Three days after he went missing, and 500 metres from where he was staying. Link

Where was AJ for those 3 days? The searchers obviously missed him, wherever it was.

 

[nightrider17]

<modsnip: Quoted posts were removed>

I think over the years we have really have considered different POI's and certainly BS was ticking a lot of boxes as a very likely possibility.

Yet over time and through the inquest it came to light that BS was no longer a POI.

I think with inconsistencies in timelines etc and obviously being the last people with WT before he disappeared the focus has moved to them.

Like BS they have had to endure speculation about whether there was a possibility they were involved due to circumstance and opportunity.

I think we are all on here just trying to tease out whether this is a possible scenario. Just like DN or FA or RC sightings of 2 cars driving erratically - if there is opportunity then it needs to be ruled out I guess.

When someone on here proposes a theory with links then all we can do is consider if its likely but none of us really know.

I know I seriously considered BS a possibility with the information that was presented at the time - unfairly for him and his family - but that was based on him being at the property recently and possibly being aware the FGM had visitors coming.

It's hard to discount inconsistencies in storyline and driving off in a car - when and why?? but it may all be valid and I am certainly open to it either way.

<modsnip>

I would not want the outcome that someone's life is ruined while being wrongly thought as a POI and I guess that is difficult to avoid if the Police have identified you as that, fairly or unfairly. MOO

 

[iiiii's]

Would you be able, please SA, to explain in more detailed reasons ... why you have decided:

"with clear Means, Motive and Opportunity. None of those things seem evident here"
(Extracted from the above post and BBM)

I'm not SA but I have thoughts on Means, Motive and Opportunity, in regards to the theory of the FFC being responsible for WT's disappearance from 48 Benaroon Drive. The police have extended the timeline of when WT was last seen to between 10.05 an 10.15am. From walk through statements and AMS evidence at the inquest, it appears that the 1st person to know that WT was missing was the MFC at 10.35. This gives the opportunity to remove him from the property in a 20-25 minute time frame. Via the car which is the means. A motive that has been guessed at by police is that whatever happened or did not happen to WT, there was fear that his sister would be removed from their care and expressions of interest had already been noted that the F couple wanted to adopt the children. Not an opinion, a theory.

 

[Couldbe]

I'm not SA but I have thoughts on Means, Motive and Opportunity, in regards to the theory of the FFC being responsible for WT's disappearance from 48 Benaroon Drive. The police have extended the timeline of when WT was last seen to between 10.05 an 10.15am. From walk through statements and AMS evidence at the inquest, it appears that the 1st person to know that WT was missing was the MFC at 10.35. This gives the opportunity to remove him from the property in a 20-25 minute time frame. Via the car which is the means. A motive that has been guessed at by police is that whatever happened or did not happen to WT, there was fear that his sister would be removed from their care and expressions of interest had already been noted that the F couple wanted to adopt the children. Not an opinion, a theory.

JMO - Because the MFC, and possibly the FFC too, might have had their phone bills paid by their Employers ... I am wondering if they also might have had Burner Phones that they also used to communicate with each other on occasions?
..... and there could have been communication between them ... prior to the apparently regular 'Home in five' text by MFC to FFC on his usual work Mobile (Which may have been communicated via Siri in his vehicle).

I don't know if the FGM might have had the opportunity to communicat any of the details of William's disappearance to MFC before FFC phoned 000 at 10.56am ... and before LE arrived at 11.06am.

https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/p...e/news-story/38baa59f1db54e441f01cc11a6af6eba
“On or after 10.30am: The foster father returns in his vehicle and when told by the foster mother William has disappeared, the foster father “just bolted ... running for William”.
The foster mother “didn’t see him for ages after that” and searches the street with female neighbours helping.
10.56am: Foster mother dials triple-0 informing police she’s the mother of a boy called William who has been missing for approximately 15-20 minutes.
11.06am: Police arrive at Benaroon Drive. Neighbours and locals join in search with police.”

 

[LolaAngelina]

I think over the years we have really have considered different POI's and certainly BS was ticking a lot of boxes as a very likely possibility.

Yet over time and through the inquest it came to light that BS was no longer a POI.

I think with inconsistencies in timelines etc and obviously being the last people with WT before he disappeared the focus has moved to them.

Like BS they have had to endure speculation about whether there was a possibility they were involved due to circumstance and opportunity.

I think we are all on here just trying to tease out whether this is a possible scenario. Just like DN or FA or RC sightings of 2 cars driving erratically - if there is opportunity then it needs to be ruled out I guess.

When someone on here proposes a theory with links then all we can do is consider if its likely but none of us really know.

I know I seriously considered BS a possibility with the information that was presented at the time - unfairly for him and his family - but that was based on him being at the property recently and possibly being aware the FGM had visitors coming.

It's hard to discount inconsistencies in storyline and driving off in a car - when and why?? but it may all be valid and I am certainly open to it either way.

<modsnip>

I would not want the outcome that someone's life is ruined while being wrongly thought as a POI and I guess that is difficult to avoid if the Police have identified you as that, fairly or unfairly. MOO

<modsnip: Quoted post was modsnipped> ... Almost everything in this case can be interpreted many different ways. The strike force has shared some “theories” but they haven’t shared any evidence for these, nor have they stated they don’t believe FMs version of events. Personally l would be more concerned if fm, fd and fgms stories all lined up exactly!

 

[SouthAussie]

Yet over time and through the inquest it came to light that BS was no longer a POI.

I would not want the outcome that someone's life is ruined while being wrongly thought as a POI and I guess that is difficult to avoid if the Police have identified you as that, fairly or unfairly. MOO

We don't actually know what the Coroner's ruling is, in this regard. She was still interested enough to put BS on the witness stand at the inquest. As she did with others that she is interested in.

There are at least a good handful of people that the Coroner wanted to hear from. Some we know about, some appeared in closed court. It would be a waste of the court's time if she heard from witnesses that she was already convinced were excluded.

Essentially, the Coroner went back to the start and heard the relevant people's story. So that she can make up her own mind and rule them in or rule them out.

(I am not saying that BS was involved, I am just saying that the Coroner's findings will ascertain that for sure.)


ETA:
The reason that I keep trying to point out that there are other POIs is because this is a Coronial investigation now, not 'simply' a police investigation. We have heard that very few people are in Strike Force Roasann now (if it is even still a Strike Force and hasn't been disbanded).
Until the Coroner gives her findings we won't actually know if she believes William disappeared through misadventure or at the hands of another, or either.

 

[iiiii's]

I'm not SA but I have thoughts on Means, Motive and Opportunity, in regards to the theory of the FFC being responsible for WT's disappearance from 48 Benaroon Drive. The police have extended the timeline of when WT was last seen to between 10.05 an 10.15am. From walk through statements and AMS evidence at the inquest, it appears that the 1st person to know that WT was missing was the MFC at 10.35. This gives the opportunity to remove him from the property in a 20-25 minute time frame. Via the car which is the means. A motive that has been guessed at by police is that whatever happened or did not happen to WT, there was fear that his sister would be removed from their care and expressions of interest had already been noted that the F couple wanted to adopt the children. Not an opinion, a theory.

forgot to add links,

Missing boy William Tyrrell's doomed life

William Tyrrell's life was doomed long before he was abducted.

www.nzherald.co.nz

William's biological mother has already told his inquest how she was alarmed when she later found out her son was then being adopted out without her knowledge.

This was just weeks before he was abducted and just before the last time she saw him, during a contact visit when he was sporting a black eye from an accidental fall.

Bombshell documents lift lid on William Tyrrell mystery

Explosive new documents from the William Tyrrell case reveal details about the toddler's life with his foster family, his violent behaviour and an accident days before he vanished.

www.dailymail.co.uk

At that point, 727 questions into the interview Jubelin interrupts and asks the foster father if William might not have 'hurt himself accidentally' and the foster mother and grandmother 'panicked and covered it up with fear of losing' the family's other child.

 

[SouthAussie]

At that point, 727 questions into the interview Jubelin interrupts and asks the foster father if William might not have 'hurt himself accidentally' and the foster mother and grandmother 'panicked and covered it up with fear of losing' the family's other child.

Ah, thank you. So it was a question from Jubes interview, a hypothetical.

 

[iiiii's]

Ah, thank you. So it was a question from Jubes interview, a hypothetical.

Yes, a theory that I think was suggested by members of his team. I wonder if this was the hard hitting interview GJ referred to where he really put the FP's through their paces. I wonder what his follow up questions were to these responses and how he pushed them. I wonder if they were pressured the way we saw PS and BS were pressured in their interviews. The journalists have access to this interview, but we can only view it through their lens I guess. IMO

 

[SouthAussie]

Yes, a theory that I think was suggested by members of his team. I wonder if this was the hard hitting interview GJ referred to where he really put the FP's through their paces. I wonder what his follow up questions were to these responses and how he pushed them. I wonder if they were pressured the way we saw PS and BS were pressured in their interviews. The journalists have access to this interview, but we can only view it through their lens I guess. IMO

One female member of his team wrote the interview plan. Jubes asked her to. One he respected a lot, he had worked with her before William's case and she had been a good detective. She said they both knew that people close to the investigation can be involved, and they wanted to be as sure as they could be. The female member and Jubes (together) interviewed both of the FP (separately).
Ref: Badness by Gary Jubelin, ch 5

I suspect it was Laura Beacroft, she joined the SF in 2015 and (also) interviewed PS with Jubes in 2017. Link

 

[Warshawski]

We don't actually know what the Coroner's ruling is, in this regard. She was still interested enough to put BS on the witness stand at the inquest. As she did with others that she is interested in.

There are at least a good handful of people that the Coroner wanted to hear from. Some we know about, some appeared in closed court. It would be a waste of the court's time if she heard from witnesses that she was already convinced were excluded.

Essentially, the Coroner went back to the start and heard the relevant people's story. So that she can make up her own mind and rule them in or rule them out.

(I am not saying that BS was involved, I am just saying that the Coroner's findings will ascertain that for sure.)


ETA:
The reason that I keep trying to point out that there are other POIs is because this is a Coronial investigation now, not 'simply' a police investigation. We have heard that very few people are in Strike Force Roasann now (if it is even still a Strike Force and hasn't been disbanded).
Until the Coroner gives her findings we won't actually know if she believes William disappeared through misadventure or at the hands of another, or either.

Hi SA - I’m probably going to be castigated for not having the proverbial ‘Link’
(maybe someone can help out) but it sticks in my mind that when the Inquest came to a rather sudden halt, it was said by ‘someone in authority‘ that a new witness has come forward, someone previously unknown / unspoken to and we will be investigating further - or words to that effect.

I’d wondered if that was what put FFC at the forefront of the suspects.

Can anyone else recall this ?

 

[SouthAussie]

Hi SA - I’m probably going to be castigated for not having the proverbial ‘Link’
(maybe someone can help out) but it sticks in my mind that when the Inquest came to a rather sudden halt, it was said by ‘someone in authority‘ that a new witness has come forward, someone previously unknown / unspoken to and we will be investigating further - or words to that effect.

I’d wondered if that was what put FFC at the forefront of the suspects.

Can anyone else recall this ?

The inquest ended when it did due to covid. And the new POI was GO. Link

(Yes, I spend a long time looking for the proverbial links. It is not particularly enjoyable, but the more you do it, the better you get at it.)

 

[SLouTh]

I am reading a biography about Ron Iddles called The Good Cop by Justine Ford. Ron says there are some crimes that are unsolvable, unless new technologies arise that help the police. Eg: DNA profiling did not exist when he started his career, but it has since helped in cold cases.

Ron's very first murder case (Maria James in 1980) is still not solved. I think there has been at least a couple of inquests - last coronial findings handed down in March 2022. It haunts him to this day.

While the Beaumont children disappeared in 1966, SAPOL has never given up on them. There was another search for them as recently as 2018. Another big dig, following geographic testing of an area by Flinders University. Link

The police won't give up. But the daily investigations slow right down, and when new information comes in, or a new technology is released, they look at the case again. It is not permanently shelved.

Which could be why Police Commissioner, Katarina Carroll, said that we must be patient, solving this case might take a long time (or words to that effect, because I cannot find the exact link any more, these older links are timing out now. If I find it again I will post it).

imo

Apoogies I didn’t mean to imply the Police had totally given up or anything like that… I was just very sad last week when the Beumont Children’s Father died last week, at 96 years of age still not knowing …

I was more trying to say that I don’t want the Police to give up … on William, or anyone really ….no matter how long it takes … look at that other recent NSW case of Amber Haigh… it took 20years … but they have worked it out now!

There is always hope!