AZ - Timothy Romans, 39, & Vincent Romero, 29, slain, St Johns, 5 Nov 2008 - #5

[Linda7NJ]

A - I didn't say it was unusual...I simply said they were both paid by the state and they shared their notes...interestingly none of the other three mental heal providers came up with that same conclusion.

Please provide a link for the above

B- Vast conspiracy - what are you referring to? I will tell you there is a reason why the GAL quit, Ben Brewer quit and now the judge has been kicked off the case...

So what's the reason???? If you can't or won't share it...why post it?

C - the boy and his mother were not indigent

The boy's mother couldn't even afford a roof over her own head or gas to take him to appointments

D - I never said it was ok to kill a parent...nor am I saying it is okay to push an 8 year old down a flight of stairs or any of the "punishment of the day" this child endured.

There is ZERO evidence of abuse.

E - Interesting that you were able to figure out this boy's psyche from watching a 46 minute interview, the day after his father was killed, with two armed police sitting beside him showing their weapons. Lack of emotion is a very common response to grieve or shock. In fact it was commented in the police report that BOTH the step mother and the boy seem to have a lack of emotion that night at the church...perhaps this is just the way this dysfunctional family learned to deal with things. Many Many Many kids who are victims of abuse learned real quick to hide their emotions...but this kid should be held to a different standard???Why???

Funny..... he easily showed real emotion when caught in his lies and knew he was busted...

F - I wonder if he got upset because "someone" told him that he wouldn't go to juvie...

G - I don't think the two psychiatrists are "evil doers"...in fact I know them both professionally...they are far from it, however you can see judge Roca gave very little credence to what they said. In fact he wasn't going to reschedule the hearing so that they could be there when they were unavailable.

I tend to think the judges mind was on the finances...would be cheaper to keep him in state and easier to find a placement within the contracted providers through the Dept of Corrections.

 

[OrdinaryLife]

BBM

iMO Then you haven't been reading here from the start.

Yes, I have. I have shared my opinion then and share it now. I have just found reading posts lately vs responding is mind stress healthier. Pick the posting battles, as it were. Sadly, that is all I read here on this thread lately.

imvho

 

[oceanblueeyes]

A - I didn't say it was unusual...I simply said they were both paid by the state and they shared their notes...interestingly none of the other three mental heal providers came up with that same conclusion.

B- Vast conspiracy - what are you referring to? I will tell you there is a reason why the GAL quit, Ben Brewer quit and now the judge has been kicked off the case...

C - the boy and his mother were not indigent

D - I never said it was ok to kill a parent...nor am I saying it is okay to push an 8 year old down a flight of stairs or any of the "punishment of the day" this child endured.

E - Interesting that you were able to figure out this boy's psyche from watching a 46 minute interview, the day after his father was killed, with two armed police sitting beside him showing their weapons. Lack of emotion is a very common response to grieve or shock. In fact it was commented in the police report that BOTH the step mother and the boy seem to have a lack of emotion that night at the church...perhaps this is just the way this dysfunctional family learned to deal with things. Many Many Many kids who are victims of abuse learned real quick to hide their emotions...but this kid should be held to a different standard???Why???

F - I wonder if he got upset because "someone" told him that he wouldn't go to juvie...

G - I don't think the two psychiatrists are "evil doers"...in fact I know them both professionally...they are far from it, however you can see judge Roca gave very little credence to what they said. In fact he wasn't going to reschedule the hearing so that they could be there when they were unavailable.

Do you have a link to what you have posted as facts in this case?

Well then what were you implying when you said these two experts were paid by the state if it isn't accusing them of being biased? They both recommended treatment out of state did they not???

What other three mental health experts saw the kid? Surely they too went before the court. Did they do as in depth analysis as these two experts whom I think have a very good reputation and are considered knowledgeable in their field?

The conspiracy I was talking about it seems to be touted about that LE conspired against this kid, then the DA, then Judge Roca and now the two psychiatrists' ethics and expertise are being questioned because they recommended out of state treatment and are paid by the state.

The boy and mother wasn't indigent???? He had no money she didn't even have a job nor could provide a roof over their heads. You mean she had money and did not tell the court? Did she pay for Woods to represent her son or did the court direct the state to pick up the tab? If so she had to be declared indigent and unable to provide him with an attorney.

I saw emotion but it wasn't about his father's death. His emotion came when he knew he was going to go to the detention center. I imagine someone close to him thought because of his age that he wouldnt be sent to juvie but they werent the ones that make that decision.

Since there has never been one thing uncovered about any abuse done do you have a link to any abuse?

Imo, without a doubt this kid IS different... even if abused... children rarely murder their abuser and kill another man who was sitting outside of their home. That is what made this case what it was. The age of the shooter and two people murdered. It was unheard of and had never happened before iirc in any state. I just feel that even if abuse existed and it sure has never been disclosed in this case..... it is never an excuse for another to murder someone.

And something else makes no sense either. It seems some must think abuse existed but the majority of St. John must not believe it. They seem to want this kid out of their town and away from them. So he seems to be getting sympathy from family members and friends but just the opposite from other citizens living there or they would have no problem with letting him back into the public school system.

In the end though he does need treatment and I hope it works.

imo

 

[Openmind]

In the end though he does need treatment and I hope it works.

imo

I agree.

 

[sdn8tv]

Do you have a link to what you have posted as facts in this case?

Well then what were you implying when you said these two experts were paid by the state if it isn't accusing them of being biased? They both recommended treatment out of state did they not???

What other three mental health experts saw the kid? Surely they too went before the court. Did they do as in depth analysis as these two experts whom I think have a very good reputation and are considered knowledgeable in their field?

The conspiracy I was talking about it seems to be touted about that LE conspired against this kid, then the DA, then Judge Roca and now the two psychiatrists' ethics and expertise are being questioned because they recommended out of state treatment and are paid by the state.

The boy and mother wasn't indigent???? He had no money she didn't even have a job nor could provide a roof over their heads. You mean she had money and did not tell the court? Did she pay for Woods to represent her son or did the court direct the state to pick up the tab? If so she had to be declared indigent and unable to provide him with an attorney.

I saw emotion but it wasn't about his father's death. His emotion came when he knew he was going to go to the detention center. I imagine someone close to him thought because of his age that he wouldnt be sent to juvie but they werent the ones that make that decision.

Since there has never been one thing uncovered about any abuse done do you have a link to any abuse?

Imo, without a doubt this kid IS different... even if abused... children rarely murder their abuser and kill another man who was sitting outside of their home. That is what made this case what it was. The age of the shooter and two people murdered. It was unheard of and had never happened before iirc in any state. I just feel that even if abuse existed and it sure has never been disclosed in this case..... it is never an excuse for another to murder someone.

And something else makes no sense either. It seems some must think abuse existed but the majority of St. John must not believe it. They seem to want this kid out of their town and away from them. So he seems to be getting sympathy from family members and friends but just the opposite from other citizens living there or they would have no problem with letting him back into the public school system.

In the end though he does need treatment and I hope it works.

imo

So since you yourself stated you are no longer interested in this case...whay do you continue to post? Perhaps you missed some of the recent articles since you have quite obviously been busy on other sites. This is the ONLY case I post about.

Everything I state as fact is reported on the apache county high profile case or mentioned by the attorney's, judges, GAL in the media...go research it. I could care less what you want to believe, but I know a whole lot more about this situation than what is said on the media, and/or listed in the high profile case site...I know exactly what I can say and what I cannot.
So if some feel they must run off and report that I'm not providing the links to all the information that is all public but just require some research please do. It will only prove that one thing...some would rather spew "their opinion" without any debate of the facts.

Statement by Prosecution...Now we know the "why's"
Statement by Defense...Not one doctor can even "diagnose him with a disorder"


Please provide your link that they were indigent and didn't have a roof over their head...or is the IMO your disclaimer that this is just your opinion... She did have a home, she did have a job...it just happened to be in another state...remember she didn't live in St.John's.A person does not have to be indigent to have a public defender appointed to them...good grief this is a far stretch to try and prove me wrong. If I went to court today and said I could not afford a private attorney one would be assigned to me...without question.

As far as the abuse...Isn't that the way it is 99% of the time...people just didn't know it was happening...who gives a crap what the majority of the town of St. John's thinks, the town saw the public profile this family wanted them to see...the family knows what happened.

I have never said it was an excuse nor have I ever said I think what happened was right...
what we do agree on...this child will get the treatment he needs whatever that may be and I hope it is successful.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

So since you yourself stated you are no longer interested in this case...whay do you continue to post? Perhaps you missed some of the recent articles since you have quite obviously been busy on other sites. This is the ONLY case I post about.

Everything I state as fact is reported on the apache county high profile case or mentioned by the attorney's, judges, GAL in the media...go research it. I could care less what you want to believe, but I know a whole lot more about this situation than what is said on the media, and/or listed in the high profile case site...I know exactly what I can say and what I cannot.
So if some feel they must run off and report that I'm not providing the links to all the information that is all public but just require some research please do. It will only prove that one thing...some would rather spew "their opinion" without any debate of the facts.

Statement by Prosecution...Now we know the "why's"
Statement by Defense...Not one doctor can even "diagnose him with a disorder"


Please provide your link that they were indigent and didn't have a roof over their head...or is the IMO your disclaimer that this is just your opinion... She did have a home, she did have a job...it just happened to be in another state...remember she didn't live in St.John's.A person does not have to be indigent to have a public defender appointed to them...good grief this is a far stretch to try and prove me wrong. If I went to court today and said I could not afford a private attorney one would be assigned to me...without question.

As far as the abuse...Isn't that the way it is 99% of the time...people just didn't know it was happening...who gives a crap what the majority of the town of St. John's thinks, the town saw the public profile this family wanted them to see...the family knows what happened.

I have never said it was an excuse nor have I ever said I think what happened was right...
what we do agree on...this child will get the treatment he needs whatever that may be and I hope it is successful.

See there you go again. I resent it highly that you think I have reported you or anyone else for that matter.

I only asked you questions. I have/had no intentions of reporting you and I find it highly unfair that you lob that out there just because I questioned your post.

This is the criteria for "indigent" and obtaining a public defender. I don't really think you believe that just anyone can be assigned a public defender and make the State pick up the tab.

http://criminal.lawyers.com/Public-Defenders.html

Getting A Public Defender Appointed
If you can't afford to hire a lawyer from the private legal community, the court can appoint a government-paid lawyer called a "public defender"- to represent you.

In order to have a public defender, you'll have to convince the judge that you can't afford to hire an attorney on your own. The judge may ask you to fill out a form detailing your financial resources, assets, income and debts. You may also need to provide the court with documentation such as paystubs to prove your income level.

Standards for how much money you can make and still qualify for a public defender vary greatly from state to state, and sometimes from one court to another.

In rural areas and in courts with meager resources, there might not be public defenders on staff with the court to represent you. In that case, the court will usually appoint a private attorney at public expense, or assign a private attorney from a volunteer attorney list to represent you.

In some courts, judges allow for what's called "partial indigency" representation: you have the help of a public defender, but are expected to reimburse the court some of the cost of representation after the trial.

If you give inaccurate information to the court in an effort to get a public defender appointed, you may be charged with the crime of falsifying information.

If the court decides you make too much money to qualify for a public defender, you'll want to immediately start looking for a private attorney to defend you.
********************************************************


Whether you ever agree or not is not is inconsequential to me but this kid is as rare as hen's teeth. He is not like other 8 year old kids. He is not like other 8 year old kids who say they have been abused. They don't do what he did ....not only to his own father but to another man minding his own business.

And there are millions of children being abused in the country yearly. Some living in real horror homes on a daily basis. This child is in a league all of his own. 8 year olds do not do what he did nor do they lure another man to his death. Imo, children this age are frozen into paralyzing fear and do nothing to upset the abuser. And telling the abuser that he was going to kill him is not what abused kids do. They never want to ire their abuser where the abuse will be worse imo.

imo

 

[Shock]

St. Johns is 'poison' for Christian. We knew that from tha start. His family has neither the means, nor determination, to assure him a better life. It's sad. Not their fault.

But this reality has been known from the beginning. Since the first hearing. Few, if any, corrections in his status have been made. His stablity has, in fact, gone backwards, due to those closest to him.

I doubt the new judge will view the case any any differently. But hopefully she'll be more decisvive. And timely.

 

[trofanji]

I think the most of all abused kid’s can’t get on firearms and munitions that easy! I know it’s not forbidden in AZ, but at last it’s careless!

And as far I read in all available reports, this boy has full and uncontrolled access to the weapons and munitions!

 

[oceanblueeyes]

I think the most of all abused kid’s can’t get on firearms and munitions that easy! I know it’s not forbidden in AZ, but at last it’s careless!

And as far I read in all available reports, this boy has full and uncontrolled access to the weapons and munitions!

Growing up there were several guns in our home. They were easily accessible. At 7 I was a good shooter. My dad kept one loaded propped up in the corner of the dining room. I was grossly abused as a child from the age of 5 through 15. I knew it was wrong. I also knew without a doubt that killing another human being was just as wrong. Not once did I think about harming my abuser. I just prayed for strength to endure and for me to reach an age where I could leave.

Millions of young children are around hunting weapons in this country. And other weapons can be used to kill someone such as a bludgeoning weapon or knives. The gun would just lay there if the perp didn't pick it up with full intentions to kill a human being. It is the mindset of the killer... not the weapon that they use that puts the murder in play imo

imo

 

[trofanji]

Weapon’s kill when in wrong hand’s, A child isn’t an appropriate weapon owner, nor every child doesn’t like to suffer from abuse, so if an abusive parent leave a weapon around accessible for the abused child, it’s plain and simple irresponsible. Unfortunately some parent’s didn’t realize that they are abusive, especially if they themselves suffered abuse when they are children.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Weapon’s kill when in wrong hand’s, A child isn’t an appropriate weapon owner, nor every child doesn’t like to suffer from abuse, so if an abusive parent leave a weapon around accessible for the abused child, it’s plain and simple irresponsible. Unfortunately some parent’s didn’t realize that they are abusive, especially if they themselves suffered abuse when they are children.

What in the world are you saying in the part I have bolded?

Are you saying some abused children like to be abused??? (thud)

I honestly don't know what you are trying to say.

I don't agree. They know they are abusive but they don't care. That is why they rule and control with a rein of terror. They know how afraid their victims are of them.

Children have had youth model guns for over 200 years. Children go hunting with their parents and families all across this country during hunting seasons. And millions of kids are abused in the country yearly. So if abuse and weapons available causes the victim to murder then we would see massive amounts of children slaying their abuser. We do not thank goodness and we have never even heard of one killing a parent and boarder at the age of 8 before this case. So it is not the guns that are in so many homes across America or we would have an epidemic of these type of murders.

Vincent Romero trusted his child. Vincent Romero was given the gun by his mother at the age of 8 so he passed it onto his son. Vinnie never hurt a sole with it the entire 20 years he had it.

imo

 

[mostlylurking]

What in the world are you saying in the part I have bolded?

Are you saying some abused children like to be abused??? (thud)

I honestly don't know what you are trying to say.

imo

OBE, no no no, he is not meaning that. English is not his first language. This comment is not intended to imply that you or any other child likes abuse. Truly trust me on this. He doesn't post frequently on this board because of this possible kind of misunderstanding & may be shy to try to come back & re-explain.....

 

[sdn8tv]

See there you go again. I resent it highly that you think I have reported you or anyone else for that matter.

I only asked you questions. I have/had no intentions of reporting you and I find it highly unfair that you lob that out there just because I questioned your post.

This is the criteria for "indigent" and obtaining a public defender. I don't really think you believe that just anyone can be assigned a public defender and make the State pick up the tab.

http://criminal.lawyers.com/Public-Defenders.html

Getting A Public Defender Appointed
If you can't afford to hire a lawyer from the private legal community, the court can appoint a government-paid lawyer called a "public defender"- to represent you.

In order to have a public defender, you'll have to convince the judge that you can't afford to hire an attorney on your own. The judge may ask you to fill out a form detailing your financial resources, assets, income and debts. You may also need to provide the court with documentation such as paystubs to prove your income level.

Standards for how much money you can make and still qualify for a public defender vary greatly from state to state, and sometimes from one court to another.

In rural areas and in courts with meager resources, there might not be public defenders on staff with the court to represent you. In that case, the court will usually appoint a private attorney at public expense, or assign a private attorney from a volunteer attorney list to represent you.

In some courts, judges allow for what's called "partial indigency" representation: you have the help of a public defender, but are expected to reimburse the court some of the cost of representation after the trial.

If you give inaccurate information to the court in an effort to get a public defender appointed, you may be charged with the crime of falsifying information.

If the court decides you make too much money to qualify for a public defender, you'll want to immediately start looking for a private attorney to defend you.
********************************************************


Whether you ever agree or not is not is inconsequential to me but this kid is as rare as hen's teeth. He is not like other 8 year old kids. He is not like other 8 year old kids who say they have been abused. They don't do what he did ....not only to his own father but to another man minding his own business.

And there are millions of children being abused in the country yearly. Some living in real horror homes on a daily basis. This child is in a league all of his own. 8 year olds do not do what he did nor do they lure another man to his death. Imo, children this age are frozen into paralyzing fear and do nothing to upset the abuser. And telling the abuser that he was going to kill him is not what abused kids do. They never want to ire their abuser where the abuse will be worse imo.

imo

So are you saying it is okay to abuse your children?
One cannot categorically put all 8 year old into the category you are trying. For that matter you cannot put anyone in any category.

My son who is 25 years old in the state of Arizona got a DUI two years ago. At the time he went to court for initial hearing and they asked him if he could pay for attorney, he said no and was assigned an attorney through the public defenders office...

 

[oceanblueeyes]

OBE, no no no, he is not meaning that. English is not his first language. This comment is not intended to imply that you or any other child likes abuse. Truly trust me on this. He doesn't post frequently on this board because of this possible kind of misunderstanding & may be shy to try to come back & re-explain.....

I certainly appreciate you trying to explain it to me mostlylurking.

I must admit I was appalled, shocked and offended that anyone would categorize any child victim who has had to suffer from childhood abuses. No child LIKES to be abused and to me that is a slap in the face of every abused boy and girl that has suffered and struggled through it for many long years. I also admit this is a very sensitive subject for me.

Just because most abused children are not killer material never makes their abuses less horrific. Violence has never solved a problem yet. It only exacerbates them.

I feel that it is probably best that I do not come back to this particular thread to post anymore.

Again I do appreciate that you took your time to come in and address this issue.

Bright blessings to all of you and I will see you on the various other threads here.

imo

 

[sdn8tv]

See there you go again. I resent it highly that you think I have reported you or anyone else for that matter.

I only asked you questions. I have/had no intentions of reporting you and I find it highly unfair that you lob that out there just because I questioned your post.

This is the criteria for "indigent" and obtaining a public defender. I don't really think you believe that just anyone can be assigned a public defender and make the State pick up the tab.

http://criminal.lawyers.com/Public-Defenders.html

Getting A Public Defender Appointed
If you can't afford to hire a lawyer from the private legal community, the court can appoint a government-paid lawyer called a "public defender"- to represent you.

In order to have a public defender, you'll have to convince the judge that you can't afford to hire an attorney on your own. The judge may ask you to fill out a form detailing your financial resources, assets, income and debts. You may also need to provide the court with documentation such as paystubs to prove your income level.

Standards for how much money you can make and still qualify for a public defender vary greatly from state to state, and sometimes from one court to another.

In rural areas and in courts with meager resources, there might not be public defenders on staff with the court to represent you. In that case, the court will usually appoint a private attorney at public expense, or assign a private attorney from a volunteer attorney list to represent you.

In some courts, judges allow for what's called "partial indigency" representation: you have the help of a public defender, but are expected to reimburse the court some of the cost of representation after the trial.

If you give inaccurate information to the court in an effort to get a public defender appointed, you may be charged with the crime of falsifying information.

If the court decides you make too much money to qualify for a public defender, you'll want to immediately start looking for a private attorney to defend you.
********************************************************


Whether you ever agree or not is not is inconsequential to me but this kid is as rare as hen's teeth. He is not like other 8 year old kids. He is not like other 8 year old kids who say they have been abused. They don't do what he did ....not only to his own father but to another man minding his own business.

And there are millions of children being abused in the country yearly. Some living in real horror homes on a daily basis. This child is in a league all of his own. 8 year olds do not do what he did nor do they lure another man to his death. Imo, children this age are frozen into paralyzing fear and do nothing to upset the abuser. And telling the abuser that he was going to kill him is not what abused kids do. They never want to ire their abuser where the abuse will be worse imo.

imo

"See there I go again"...doing what?

I resent that you call this family indigent.
In the state of ARIZONA you have to be able to prove you cannot pay for an attorney...not be indigent. If I were to be charged with a crime today, I would not be able to pay $300.00 an hour for an attorney...so I guess I would be considered indigent and I am far from indigent.
http://www.pubdef.maricopa.gov/info.html#q4

 

[sdn8tv]

Growing up there were several guns in our home. They were easily accessible. At 7 I was a good shooter. My dad kept one loaded propped up in the corner of the dining room. I was grossly abused as a child from the age of 5 through 15. I knew it was wrong. I also knew without a doubt that killing another human being was just as wrong. Not once did I think about harming my abuser. I just prayed for strength to endure and for me to reach an age where I could leave.

Millions of young children are around hunting weapons in this country. And other weapons can be used to kill someone such as a bludgeoning weapon or knives. The gun would just lay there if the perp didn't pick it up with full intentions to kill a human being. It is the mindset of the killer... not the weapon that they use that puts the murder in play imo

imo

I think if someone who was abused for 10 years and never even day dreamed about harming their abuser is someone who I would consider as odd as a hen with teeth.

There is a book called "when children kill" by Paul Mones, an attorney who specializes in children who commit patricide or matricide. I recommend you read it if you feel this boy is as odd as a hen with teeth. It is a very hard book to read.

 

[colette]

Thank you for all your posts oceanblueeyes. It is very difficult to post on this topic due to the entrenched beliefs. Even if the kid was abused every day for his 8 years, how can you justify the murder of the roomer? Lured in to the home for his killing.... you can't justify that one.

 

[trofanji]

What in the world are you saying in the part I have bolded?

Are you saying some abused children like to be abused??? (thud)

I honestly don't know what you are trying to say.

I don't agree. They know they are abusive but they don't care. That is why they rule and control with a rein of terror. They know how afraid their victims are of them.

Children have had youth model guns for over 200 years. Children go hunting with their parents and families all across this country during hunting seasons. And millions of kids are abused in the country yearly. So if abuse and weapons available causes the victim to murder then we would see massive amounts of children slaying their abuser. We do not thank goodness and we have never even heard of one killing a parent and boarder at the age of 8 before this case. So it is not the guns that are in so many homes across America or we would have an epidemic of these type of murders.

Vincent Romero trusted his child. Vincent Romero was given the gun by his mother at the age of 8 so he passed it onto his son. Vinnie never hurt a sole with it the entire 20 years he had it.

imo

I have to apologise for misunderstanding, I just oversaw the “doesn’t “it sure should be “does”; So NO child should be abused in any way!
And I believe that no child should have unattended access to a weapon or dangerous item’s like knifes.

imo

 

[Linda7NJ]

I have to apologise for misunderstanding, I just oversaw the “doesn’t “it sure should be “does”; So NO child should be abused in any way!
And I believe that no child should have unattended access to a weapon or dangerous item’s like knifes.

imo

I would say that the vast majority have access to all sorts of knives. American kitchens are stocked with them.

There are some parts in this country where darn near EVERY child has their own gun & ammo and full access to it after being taught how to use it and gun safety.

Good grief...Reading here it seems so many children are coddled, and excused so much these days and have so few responsibilities their IQs have plummeted over the years. That's scary!

 

[Trino]

I would say that the vast majority have access to all sorts of knives. American kitchens are stocked with them.

There are some parts in this country where darn near EVERY child has their own gun & ammo and full access to it after being taught how to use it and gun safety.

Good grief...Reading here it seems so many children are coddled, and excused so much these days and have so few responsibilities their IQs have plummeted over the years. That's scary!

Our country is very divided when it comes to kids and weapons. Many inner-city kids that have weapons are considered gang members and/or criminals, whereas country-kids are expected to know how to use a gun well before their teen years. Crazy, huh?

Teen firearm deaths in the US in one year = 3184 (2006). Number of kids strangled by drawstring cords from sweats (1985-1995) = 17.