CA/Canada - Elisa Lam - 21 years old - Los Angeles/Vancouver - 31-Jan-2013 - #4

[Qrious]

I've read Elisa was completely nude in the cistern, no clothing, no socks, no shoes

I've also read LE/Fire Dept believe the clogging of the water lines were her clothes and it's possible they know this because some of her clothing may have been stuck in the drainage valve...

Which makes me believe the perp's likely an employee, since who would've thought of dropping her clothes into a chlorinated water tank --which would pretty much cleanse/bleach off DNA, prints, etc of the perp after she was killed?

I seriously think the average perp would'nt be aware of this oppotunity to hide the crime evidence in this manner...The perp has to be someone very aware of the hotel's facilities

You might have hit it right. Her sandals and heavier clothing might have been trapped at the drainage valve. The clothing would then act like a filter, stopping any decomposed material from going through. Meanwhile the water at the bottom turned black from the accumulation of decomposed stuffs. That would explain why residents saw black water only at the beginning when they turned on the faucet, but otherwise didn't find anything that unusual to raise their suspicion. (Of course, once they heard the news, all sorts of imagination would come in and their description of the water's taste might get exaggerated.)

But as another person has pointed out, how would it be possible for all her clothing to come loose on their own supposed if there was no foul play and assuming that she did not unclothe herself? Can the swirling in the tank be that strong?

 

[Qrious]

I just have not seen the photos you have seen apparently of all these cops there. There wasn't even one in the photo you posted on the roof.
Just firemen. There is no proof the person standing on the tank is the coroner. You'd think there would be some that were with the crime scene team directing her removal and as I said before some media present taking photos of the ambulance and the scene at the Cecil.
It seems like it was kind of a big deal to miss. Every single media outlet.

Sorry, I don't get this discussion about not seeing cops on the rooftop. In any case, these are photos saved in my phone from some news websites. Clearly show homicide detectives, I suppose, swarming the place:

 

[FutzBucket]

If she did go to a speak easy, she might have taken out her contacts, due to smoking.

She didn't care if she couldn't see, she was there for the music.

 

[Qrious]

Did you notice a break in the Tumblr postings on Feb 1? There's a section just for Feb 1 (minus one Feb 1 repost.) Then Feb continues in a separate section, with one Feb 1 repost, then reposts up to Feb 18th. Then the single Feb 27th repost.

Not understanding Tumblr, I'm wondering why most of Feb 1 would be separated from the rest of Feb?

Could be that her account was suspended while police went through her postings, then reactivated once police gave the clearance.

 

[FutzBucket]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3TjVBpyTeZM"]Elisa Lam Video - YouTube[/ame]

00:37, She approaches the man and attempts to apologize.
00:48, the occupant tells her to get out of the elevator. She shyly and slowly begins to, but sees danger.
00:53, the occupant pulls out a gun, and this causes her to jump. The occupant says, "spread your legs", and she complies. The occupant is now telling her to come closer to him. She doesn't understand there's a camera in the elevator, while the occupant is fully aware of this.
1:03, the occupant grabs her at gunpoint, makes her place her hands on her head, demands to know who she is and what she's doing there, and tells her to get out of here or he'll kill her, and he says, "you've got 20-seconds to get out of here". and he releases her.
1:30, she enters the elevator and is terrified. In a panic, she hits all the buttons in the middle row, but she keeps hitting the "HOLD DOOR" button. The man is counting down, and she doesn't understand why she can't leave. The occupant can't see what buttons she's pressing from his perspective.
1:50, exactly 20-seconds later, the occupant hits the button again and orders her to come back. She's in tears and is trying to say she's confused. The occupant doesn't believe her.
1:57, the occupant grabs her and places his gun on the back of her head, she's pulling away, giving the strange look about her arms, because she's trying to trigger the sensor to keep the door open.
2:05, the occupant notices what she's doing, grabs her hair, and gives her a yank and tells her to shut up, and she completely submits.
2:12, she begins begging for her life and/or pleading with the occupant to believe her.
2:20, the occupant orders her to be quiet and to place her hands on her head.
2:25, the occupant leads her away from the camera by her neck, and a gun to her head.
2:45 (aporox) the occupant lets go of the elevator button.
2:58, the elevator shuts, and begins going to the floors pressed.

 

[Socrates]

My thinking on this puzzling case so far:

This could have been an accident, a suicide, or a murder.

1) Accident: this would seem like a very unlikely accident. How could she have "accidentally" ended up in the water tank? Why would she have gone in deliberately? For a swim? It doesn't make sense.

2) Suicide: assuming Elisa's social media accounts (widely cited here) are really hers, she doesn't seem to have been suicidal. Depressed, yes, or bipolar, but not suicidal... And as others have mentioned, this just seems to be a strange place to commit suicide. Would she just have taken some pills? Or Jumped of the roof? Drowning would be a pretty awful way to die. And it's not clear why she would have thought about the water tanks at all. They seem like something a staff member or long-term resident might think of, but not a tourist there for only a few days. And if she had drowned, that should have been evident in the autopsy, right?

3) That leaves murder, or some kind of negligent homicide. The puzzle for me is that there seems not to have been any obvious sign of trauma on Elisa's body. That suggests suffocation or some kind of drug overdose or interaction. In the elevator video, she appears to have been acting strangely. One possibility is that there was someone outside in the hall, deliberately avoiding the security camera. But her behavior in the video doesn't seem to me to be consistent with that. She doesn't seem to be communicating with anyone really there. And that suggests drugs. An expert says that her behavior seems consistent with intoxication with ecstasy or a similar drug. It seems like she was excited to move on to her next destinations in CA, though, so it would be strange to willingly take heavy drugs the night before leaving--shouldn't she have been preparing for her trip? And she doesn't seem to have been interested in illicit drugs... So that suggests she took the drug involuntarily. Maybe someone slipped it to her.

Unfortunately some men do that when they have sexual designs on a woman. And Elisa, traveling alone, must have seemed like an easy target... That would explain why her body was found naked. It's not really credible that her clothes were just sucked off of her in the tank... And if she was drugged, she might not have offered much or any resistance to her attacker, which would explain why there were no signs of rape...And to a rapist who was a staff member or long-term resident, the water tank might seem like a good place to dispose of the body, if he couldn't get it out of the building. It's puzzling, though, that the person didn't just toss her off the roof and try to make it look like suicide... Still, the water tank worked out pretty well from the killer's point of view. The police missed the corpse, even after searching the roof, and the body was not found for 3 weeks.

So I keep coming back to this as the most plausible theory: that she was drugged, sexually assaulted, milled either by suffocation or by the drug, and then dumped in the cistern by a staff member or long-term resident who not only knew how to get to the roof, but was well aware of the water tanks as well.

This theory at least fits the facts we know so far, I think.

 

[FutzBucket]

My thinking on this puzzling case so far:

This could have been an accident, a suicide, or a murder.

1) Accident: this would seem like a very unlikely accident. How could she have "accidentally" ended up in the water tank? Why would she have gone in deliberately? For a swim? It doesn't make sense.

2) Suicide: assuming Elisa's social media accounts (widely cited here) are really hers, she doesn't seem to have been suicidal. Depressed, yes, or bipolar, but not suicidal... And as others have mentioned, this just seems to be a strange place to commit suicide. Would she just have taken some pills? Or Jumped of the roof? Drowning would be a pretty awful way to die. And it's not clear why she would have thought about the water tanks at all. They seem like something a staff member or long-term resident might think of, but not a tourist there for only a few days. And if she had drowned, that should have been evident in the autopsy, right?

3) That leaves murder, or some kind of negligent homicide. The puzzle for me is that there seems not to have been any obvious sign of trauma on Elisa's body. That suggests suffocation or some kind of drug overdose or interaction. In the elevator video, she appears to have been acting strangely. One possibility is that there was someone outside in the hall, deliberately avoiding the security camera. But her behavior in the video doesn't seem to me to be consistent with that. She doesn't seem to be communicating with anyone really there. And that suggests drugs. An expert says that her behavior seems consistent with intoxication with ecstasy or a similar drug. It seems like she was excited to move on to her next destinations in CA, though, so it would be strange to willingly take heavy drugs the night before leaving--shouldn't she have been preparing for her trip? And she doesn't seem to have been interested in illicit drugs... So that suggests she took the drug involuntarily. Maybe someone slipped it to her.

Unfortunately some men do that when they have sexual designs on a woman. And Elisa, traveling alone, must have seemed like an easy target... That would explain why her body was found naked. It's not really credible that her clothes were just sucked off of her in the tank... And if she was drugged, she might not have offered much or any resistance to her attacker, which would explain why there were no signs of rape...And to a rapist who was a staff member or long-term resident, the water tank might seem like a good place to dispose of the body, if he couldn't get it out of the building. It's puzzling, though, that the person didn't just toss her off the roof and try to make it look like suicide... Still, the water tank worked out pretty well from the killer's point of view. The police missed the corpse, even after searching the roof, and the body was not found for 3 weeks.

So I keep coming back to this as the most plausible theory: that she was drugged, sexually assaulted, milled either by suffocation or by the drug, and then dumped in the cistern by a staff member or long-term resident who not only knew how to get to the roof, but was well aware of the water tanks as well.

This theory at least fits the facts we know so far, I think.

Sorry, no.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3TjVBpyTeZM&feature=player_detailpage#t=65s"]Elisa Lam Video - YouTube[/ame]

1:05
The suspect gets Elisa fully off camera. If this was a sex crime, or if murder was the intent, then the video would have ended here.

The suspect allows her to leave, and gives her 20-seconds to leave.

 

[jennydreadful]

If she did go to a speak easy, she might have taken out her contacts, due to smoking.

She didn't care if she couldn't see, she was there for the music.

In California, there are laws that prohibit smoking in indoor public places (even bars), and you can't smoke within 15-20 feet from doors. I think you can still get smoking rooms at some hotels, though.

I'm pretty sure that the Speakeasy post was posted before EL's post that she had arrived in L.A., so I'm inclined to believe that the speakeasy was in San Diego. However, if smoking is allowed or tolerated at the Cecil, you could add cigarette smoke to your theory.

 

[Marlon]

Elisa Lam Video - YouTube

00:37, She approaches the man and attempts to apologize.
00:48, the occupant tells her to get out of the elevator. She shyly and slowly begins to, but sees danger.
00:53, the occupant pulls out a gun, and this causes her to jump. The occupant says, "spread your legs", and she complies. The occupant is now telling her to come closer to him. She doesn't understand there's a camera in the elevator, while the occupant is fully aware of this.
1:03, the occupant grabs her at gunpoint, makes her place her hands on her head, demands to know who she is and what she's doing there, and tells her to get out of here or he'll kill her, and he says, "you've got 20-seconds to get out of here". and he releases her.
1:30, she enters the elevator and is terrified. In a panic, she hits all the buttons in the middle row, but she keeps hitting the "HOLD DOOR" button. The man is counting down, and she doesn't understand why she can't leave. The occupant can't see what buttons she's pressing from his perspective.
1:50, exactly 20-seconds later, the occupant hits the button again and orders her to come back. She's in tears and is trying to say she's confused. The occupant doesn't believe her.
1:57, the occupant grabs her and places his gun on the back of her head, she's pulling away, giving the strange look about her arms, because she's trying to trigger the sensor to keep the door open.
2:05, the occupant notices what she's doing, grabs her hair, and gives her a yank and tells her to shut up, and she completely submits.
2:12, she begins begging for her life and/or pleading with the occupant to believe her.
2:20, the occupant orders her to be quiet and to place her hands on her head.
2:25, the occupant leads her away from the camera by her neck, and a gun to her head.
2:45 (aporox) the occupant lets go of the elevator button.
2:58, the elevator shuts, and begins going to the floors pressed.

I have to admit ur explanation on the strange movement of her arms makes sense.

 

[Host]

>[ame="http://websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8963638&postcount=702"]702[/ame]

She wrote in her old blog that nouvelle / nouveau is her new blog, and wrote that she was taking a number of medications to help maintain her sanity.

This reddit was referenced earlier about her behavior:

What old blog?

And yes, I've read miji_838's post a while back. Suffice it to say whether EL's personal problems have gotten better or worse over the course they had known each other, we're not sure. I'd like to know where or who gave out nouvelle/nouveau. As far as I'm concerned, it's being trammeled into most references inattentively. Most people who pass it along don't even know from who they've got it.

As for the queued post method, it's a possibility. [She] reblogged "IX, THE HERMIT" from magrittesque, who blogged it sometime in December.

 

[FutzBucket]

I have to admit ur explanation on the strange movement of her arms makes sense.

Dude, this case is totally freaking me out, because I really think I know what happened. I think I know, because I've worked in all classes of hotels for the last 10+ years, and I think I understand Elisa.

If I'm right, you better believe I'm gonna mention Websleuths.

 

[Wee B.]

Sorry, no.

Elisa Lam Video - YouTube

1:05
The suspect gets Elisa fully off camera. If this was a sex crime, or if murder was the intent, then the video would have ended here.

The suspect allows her to leave, and gives her 20-seconds to leave.

You are talking as if there is a "suspect" off camera in this video. That is all your opinion. There is nothing to suggest that this is video leading to a crime or that there is any wrong doing in this video. This is surveillance video posted before anyone knew what happened to her. Please start making it clear in your posts that its your opinion or theory <modsnip>.

 

[FutzBucket]

You are talking as if there is a "suspect" off camera in this video. That is all your opinion. There is nothing to suggest that this is video leading to a crime or that there is any wrong doing in this video. This is surveillance video posted before anyone knew what happened to her. Please start making it clear in your posts that its your opinion or theory <modsnip>.

I assumed that's the assumption with every post here.

I mean, what, should we all include "this is just my thought" with every single thing we say here? I thought the whole point here is to openly discuss cases for the expressed purpose of solving them?

For that, we need to express our opinions

Of course, that's just my opinion.

 

[jennydreadful]

So I keep coming back to this as the most plausible theory: that she was drugged, sexually assaulted, milled either by suffocation or by the drug, and then dumped in the cistern by a staff member or long-term resident who not only knew how to get to the roof, but was well aware of the water tanks as well.

This theory at least fits the facts we know so far, I think.

I completely agree with everything you said. Most murders are mundane, done for a few main reasons, and aren't very elaborate. There are a tiny number of famous cases that are much more elaborate (the Zodiac killer for example), but it's so, so rare.

The only thing I'd add is that the killer could also be a friend or relative of a long-term resident of the Cecil, and I don't think it's impossible that it was a short-term guest. If I were the latter and I killed someone in the heat of the moment (or accidentally), I may well explore the building and roof looking for a good place to dump. Personally, I would know that those were watertanks because I've seen them when I visited India. Even if I didn't know, i might have thought "hmmm" when I saw them and taken a look inside. Alternately, if I were a killer and were planning to commit this murder, I would have looked for a dumping spot and lucked upon this one.

I consider your scenario likelier, but I'm just explaining why I haven't ruled out another guest as a murderer.

 

[FutzBucket]

That's the problem, you don't differentiate between the facts and your opinion. If I just stumbled in here and read about the suspect giving her 20 seconds and maybe having DNA on his watch, I might believe that the police have a suspect that was outside of the elevator. The police have named no suspects, there is nothing to say we are witnessing a crime, yet you are expounding on those things as if they are fact, and not making it clear that it is your fictional account.

I see your point, thank you for pointing that out. I'll be more careful.

My only excuse is I'm passionate about catching this guy.

edit: and I'm terrified that he's going to get away with this.

 

[Borris]

Here's the list of her medications that I've been able to Google, please feel free to correct as I am not a trained-professional in this field -I'm sure it's been posted before in these threads, and will most likely get posted again in a different format, but here it is:

Here is the cocktail of prescriptions I take for depression.

Effexor are the pink and red. After 2 years finally found the antidepressant that has made some difference.

Wellbutrin is the white thing. It&#8217;s unfortunately not covered by my student health plan so I have to pay the full price for it. I am so happy I have that health plan.

Next to it is dexedrine, perhaps known more popularly as Adderall. Apparently I have ADHD so shrinky dink has been so kind to prescribe some saying it will help with my concentration. I haven&#8217;t taken it yet but at this point&#8230;.I shouldn&#8217;t resist.

The other one is lamotrigine because apparently I&#8217;m bipolar as well?

I wonder what will happen when I take these things long term. Will I ever not need them?

What I believe is shown in the photo:

75mg + 150mg Effexor - Major depressive disorder and anxiety
75mg Bupropion (Wellbutrin)- Major depressive disorder
10mg Dexedrine- Psychostimulant for symptoms of ADHD
100mg Lamotrigine - Bipolar disorder and depression.

A Wikipedia listed side-effect from Dexedrine is psychosis.

This is from the company's site:

Dexedrine Psychiatric Adverse Events
Pre-Existing Psychosis: Administration of stimulants may exacerbate symptoms of behavior disturbance and thought disorder in patients with a pre-existing psychotic disorder. Bipolar Illness: Particular care should be taken in using stimulants to treat ADHD in patients with comorbid bipolar disorder because of concern for possible induction of a mixed/manic episode in such patients. Prior to initiating treatment with a stimulant, patients with comorbid depressive symptoms should be adequately screened to determine if they are at risk for bipolar disorder; such screening should include a detailed psychiatric history, including a family history of suicide, bipolar disorder, and depression.

 

[Borris]

>702

What old blog?

Ether Fields

There is also a great deal of discussion about both blogs in the earlier threads.

 

[Xavier]

If the suspect wears a wristwatch, then he probably wears it on his left wrist, which is the hand I believe he uses to grab Elisa's hair. If this is true, there may be DNA evidence located in the watch.

Futz -- Someone posted LAPD thinks Elisa time of death was Feb 14-16

So she was either in the tank for 15 days when she died or the perp held her hostage for 15 days, then ordered her in the tank and take off all of her clothes

If she's a threat, 15 days is a long time for to keep a hostage, especially someone who's probably very anti-social as you describe

The perp must've told her to take every piece of clothing, shoes off since it's valididated she was completely nude in the tank

 

[FutzBucket]

I can confirm that's Effexor, from personal experience.

Not a good drug, imo. Caused me to have weird thoughts, like intentionally burning my hand on a stove just to see if I could feel it.

I would like to express my thoughts that her medication cocktail probably only proves her aversion to alcohol.

 

[FutzBucket]

Futz -- Someone posted LAPD thinks Elisa time of death was Feb 14-16

So she was either in the tank for 15 days when she died or the perp held her hostage for 15 days, then ordered her in the tank and take off all of her clothes

If she's a threat, 15 days is a long time for to keep a hostage, especially someone who's probably very anti-social as you describe

The perp must've told her to take every piece of clothing, shoes off since it's valididated she was completely nude in the tank

I like your thinking. Consider she was placed in the tank that very night, and the cold water preserved her. Then, on the 16th, the temp rose to 60-degrees.