CA/Canada - Elisa Lam - 21 years old - Los Angeles/Vancouver - 31-Jan-2013 - #5

[Xavier]

Now that I think of it, I have myself carried weights that are relatively heavy for me up ladders by myself. Notably very large boxes of books. How I have done it is that I carry it up to the ladder, then I place one foot up on the ladder so that leg is bent at 90 degrees at the knee. I place the box of books on that thigh and hold the box with my left arm. I hold onto the ladder with my right arm. Then I scoot up the ladder one step at a time. I scoot the left leg holding the weight of the books up one step, then I move my right leg (which is lower down on the ladder) up one step and then I get my balance by leaning in to the ladder and move my left arm up to a higher hold on the ladder. I do this one step at a time until I get to the top.

I could easily carry a child up a ladder that way if I had it in a box or if it wasn't squirming or shifting. That is why the body would need to be in a container or wrapped to get it up the ladder. To stop the shifting and concentrate the weight into a smaller area. Elisa Lam's weight to an average man would be the same as a child's weight for me. If a man had her in a suitcase or box, he could easily bring her up a ladder the same way.

A guy getting her onto the top of the water tank would be even easier than my situation because I have a small hole only the width of the ladder in the ceiling above me so once I get to the top I have to turn precariously and lean back to hold the box under the hole.

If you told me you would pay me $10,000 to do it, I would fly out to LA tomorrow and carry any 115 pound female up that ladder myself. You should never doubt human ingenuity.

My hunch is the alarm on the exit roof top door was off or broken

It just seems from what I read the Cecil was pretty lax about checking things

Even their no refund policy for guests complaining about the foul water, is pretty arrogant

Customer service? Good PR? The Cecil says : What's That?

 

[catatonia]

The value is rather set on quantity than quality.

 

[MesaVerde]

Is it possible to squeeze something, as big as a human body, into a suitcase or plastic bag (secured with duct tape) without leaving any marks?

Well, I would very easily fit into the max size no extra fee sized checked luggage suitcase. You wouldn't have to bruise me or break my bones to fit me in there. Did you see the episode of the bachelor recently where the girl from Seattle curled up into a huge snow tractor tire wheel hub cap well? That girl is fatter than me or than Elisa Lam.

I also don't see how a plastic bag would leave marks unless she got banged around. He could have used his bed comforter even, which would have cushioned her.

I know putting me in a suitcase would not cause bruising on me while I am alive unless I was fighting and you had to hit me. Just restraining me without impact would not bruise me. Don't know about a dead body though. Maybe they bruise just from a little pressure? It would be interested to see what sort of pressure would cause bruising on a dead body.

 

[Xavier]

To begin with, I was wondering about that, too (somewhere in thread #3, I guess), but the Coroner stated her body had no physical trauma.

Is it possible to squeeze something, as big as a human body, into a suitcase or plastic bag (secured with duct tape) without leaving any marks?

The more I think about it, the less likely it becomes, that there was only one killer (if it was homicide), as sillybilly already suggested. Maybe an accomplice worked as a lookout, OR the killer knew when the roof was going to be empty/secure, but again: how could he possibly knew?

Someone who isn't familiar with the hotel's daily routine had to have tremendous luck not being caught (in flagranti), as previously asserted, the roof seems to be a quite popular place.

Good points Also consider if you're a perp on a huge 600 room hotel rooftop with hundreds of guests in a crowded downtown area packed with buildings, other hotels, apartments maybe, all shoulder to shoulder

Lots of people to hear her screaming, so I'm thinking the perp silenced Elisa by suffocating her and maybe that's harder IMO to detect markings on her

 

[MesaVerde]

T OR the killer knew when the roof was going to be empty/secure, but again: how could he possibly knew?

Someone who isn't familiar with the hotel's daily routine had to have tremendous luck not being caught (in flagranti), as previously asserted, the roof seems to be a quite popular place.

Well, you would leave her in your room or where ever and then go and do recon on the roof.

Late January/early February in Los Angeles would be cold enough (especially 14 floors up) that people wouldn't be just hanging out on the roof for fun in the dead of night. The temperatures would be miserable even for people who prefer colder temperatures. Most human beings start to get very uncomfortable at temperatures below 60 and you have to factor in wind chill.

Even people who run up there for a quick cigarette wouldn't likely be doing that at 3 a.m. during winter. And if it were a resident or worker, they would know the habits of the others in the hotel.

Yes, they would be taking a gamble but killing a person usually is a gamble but lots of people are willing to take that gamble despite the risks of getting caught. So killers by nature are already willing to take the risk of getting caught. They just try to minimize their risk of getting caught. That guy might have thought that (for example) 3 a.m. on a cold night isn't too much of a risk if he was used to not seeing others up there at that time recently.

I see from a newspaper article that the low temperature in the middle of January was 36 degrees on the night of that article this year. With wind chill on the roof of a 14 floor building, that is really miserable cold. Nobody is up there enjoying a beer in the dead of night in temperatures like that guaranteed. Haven't found the temps for the end of January yet.

If I had to get rid of a dead body, I'd probably take that chance. If I were a pretty big guy, I'd probably accept the choice that if I came across some lone guy coming up for a cigarette who caught me at my evil deed, I'd probably just have to kill him too, which would mess up my plan of getting away with my deed easily cus now I have a second body to worry about. But sometimes that is the way it goes.

 

[Xavier]

I am Elisa Lam's size almost exactly. Pretty much any guy not elderly, grossly obese, or in a wheel chair can easily carry me around. So obviously her weight would not be an issue. As to carrying her up a ladder, it is nearly impossible for me to conceive that somebody would believe that a human being could not easily think of a solution to carry a weight like that up a ladder.

I can think of several easy ways just off the top of my head right now and I haven't even spent time thinking about it. Get me in a situation where I really HAVE to get something done and see how ingenious I can be. So here are my NONingenious ideas that I just thought of in two minutes...

Here is one: Buy plastic sheeting from Home Depot. Wrap duct tape around it. Put a rope around it. Fix it with duct tape. Climb each ladder, afterwards pulling the body up by the rope. Cut the plastic off of her. Drop her in the tank.

Or:

Wrap plastic around her. Secure it with duct tape. Create duct tape handles to create two straps. Slip an arm through each strap. Put her on your back. Climb the ladder. Cut the plastic off dump her in the tank.

Or. Put her in a suitcase. I would easily fit in a regular checked luggage suitcase. So would she. Climb the ladder. Pull the suitcase up by a rope.

Or maybe the perp went to the roof exit door using a room servvice cart with th elinen drapped over it or the large luggage carts used to take your belongings to your room

ALot of times those carts are just sitting in the hallways or left in a guest room

 

[MesaVerde]

Good points Also consider if you're a perp on a huge 600 room hotel rooftop with hundreds of guests in a crowded downtown area packed with buildings, other hotels, apartments maybe, all shoulder to shoulder

Lots of people to hear her screaming, so I'm thinking the perp silenced Elisa by suffocating her and maybe that's harder IMO to detect markings on her

Newspaper articles indicate that fewer than 50 of those rooms were booked. That leaves about 550 vacant rooms. The Cecil was practically a ghost town. Or literally if you believe the people into that sort of stuff.

 

[MesaVerde]

Or maybe the perp went to the roof exit door using a room servvice cart with th elinen drapped over it or the large luggage carts used to take your belongings to your room

ALot of times those carts are just sitting in the hallways or left in a guest room

Mmmm, yes. But the elevator does not go to the roof. So there is still the problem of how to get her from floor 15 to the roof and then how to get her from the roof to the top of the water tank.

 

[MesaVerde]

To begin with, I was wondering about that, too (somewhere in thread #3, I guess), but the Coroner stated her body had no physical trauma.

Is it possible to squeeze something, as big as a human body, into a suitcase or plastic bag (secured with duct tape) without leaving any marks?

Well, it seems that generally, it is difficult to cause any sort of bruising on a dead body. Here is a quote from the book, "Techniques of Crime Scene Investigation, 7th Ed." It says (Page 512):

"If a bruise is found on a dead body, it may be concluded with certainty that the injury was produced while the victim was alive."

http://books.google.com/books?id=Hm...page&q=do bruises form on dead bodies&f=false

So short of cutting or scratching the skin or doing other things that would obviously cause marks, it seems that a dead body is not very susceptible to bruising or marking.

Weirdly, page 549 shows a woman's body in a suitcase (a larger woman than Elisa Lam, as well I think unless it is a smaller suitcase than what I was thinking of).

 

[catatonia]

Okay, this obviously made it less difficult to get her up there and the hypothesis of her being squeezed into a suitcase, plastic bag or whatever, less unlikely.

The pooling of the blood can be a vital clue in determining the time of death and is known as hypostasis. This occurs when the blood ceases flowing, settling in the lowest parts of the body and in turn, causing the skin to become pink and red in colour. This process is complete in up to 6 hours after death. The main use of blood pooling analysis actually lies in helping to determine the death manner (noting that the location of the blood pools indicates the upright position of the body at the time of blood pooling) The process does however, form a method of predicting the time since death.

Source: http://library.thinkquest.org/04oct/00206/text_ta_time_since_death.htm


Does anyone know to what extent it is going to affect the blood pooling when a corpse is found in water resp. when it has been floating around there for several weeks?

 

[MesaVerde]

I don't know what I am allowed to post. But there is an interesting picture on a website of a woman in a see through suitcase. It was done as a stunt to protest human trafficking.

It will come up if you google: frau im koffer

 

[Sillybilly]

FWIW, Ryan Jenkins took Jasmine Fiore's body out of a hotel in a suitcase. She was 5'7, 120 lbs.

 

[cath999]

You've mistaken his conclusion. He said that it's nearly impossible to carry 115lbs on a wall ladder, not the one beside the water tanks. He said the tight space and the pipes actually lends itself better to carry a body up the water tank.

"Hiding in a water tank from a threat" is idiotic, even if you are psychotic. Has she ever "hidden" in weird places before? Has she had a past history of doing moronic things? Other than the reason, "she's crazy, therefore she'll do stupid things that I wouldn't do", why would you hide in a water tank? Why not hide in your room? Or the lobby? Or scream at the top of your lungs down the hallway? Maybe she was on the roof already and was in danger - so instead of heading for the 3 fire escapes or the rooftop door, she heads for the water tanks knowing there's a ladder for her to climb, knowing the lid is unlocked, and thinking that she'll be able to get out again, or that she wouldn't drown. It puts you at more danger, because you've trapped yourself. I would rank suicide as more likely.

Getting back to the ladder and the dead weight - what if someone had a backpack that weighed 120lbs? Since the weight is evenly distributed, and you have both hands, wouldn't it be possible to carry someone up a wall ladder?

Clearly you have no experience with psychotic people. I have witnessed things in my line of work so bizzare they would blow your mind.

 

[MesaVerde]

My hunch is the alarm on the exit roof top door was off or broken

It just seems from what I read the Cecil was pretty lax about checking things

Even their no refund policy for guests complaining about the foul water, is pretty arrogant

Customer service? Good PR? The Cecil says : What's That?

That is my hunch as well. Also, some guy posted on the internet that he stayed there and the alarm to the roof was not working then but that the roof door was locked. Of course, maybe he didn't really stay there but he had a lot of details about the place so I believed him.

If a resident had somehow gotten hold of a master key or if it was an employee or if it was someone who can pick locks, then getting past the door lock would be a nonissue.

I used to have a cool neighbor who could pick the lock on my apartment door in about 15 seconds with a tool he had made himself from a screwdriver. He had filed the screwdriver down based on a picture in a book on locksmithing. Lucky for me, raping or killing or robbing me wasn't on his bucket list, huh? He let me in my apartment twice that way because I locked my keys inside my apartment.

 

[MesaVerde]

Clearly you have no experience with psychotic people. I have witnessed things in my line of work so bizzare they would blow your mind.

I agree with you that a really crazy person is capable of any sort of craziness. But I don't see evidence that this girl was psychotic. I know you are not saying in this post that she is. But in case people are thinking along those lines.

 

[cath999]

I agree with you that a really crazy person is capable of any sort of craziness. But I don't see evidence that this girl was psychotic. I know you are not saying in this post that she is. But in case people are thinking along those lines.

I gave my opinion on that video way back in thread one.

 

[MesaVerde]

Oh, I see. I just read it. Ok, well, we just don't agree on that. That is ok. Not so much for her. But ok for me.

 

[Sillybilly]

Does anyone recall seeing a Chinese translation of Elisa's name that was something like Lam Elisa Ke Ker (something like that ... it definitely had a K in it)?

 

[Sillybilly]

I gave my opinion on that video way back in thread one.

That's a lot of threads and posts ago ... sorry if we missed it or forgot about it.

 

[MesaVerde]

Does anyone know to what extent it is going to affect the blood pooling when a corpse is found in water resp. when it has been floating around there for several weeks?

I am wondering this as well.