I don't suspect she walked in on a drug deal, they are far too common. I live in a major city and FWIW don't take much notice of what looks like a drug deal on the surface. It would have to be something really bad, really untoward, she saw... to make the scenario work at all.
CA/Canada - Elisa Lam - 21 years old - Los Angeles/Vancouver - 31-Jan-2013 - #5
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I don't suspect she walked in on a drug deal, they are far too common. I live in a major city and FWIW don't take much notice of what looks like a drug deal on the surface. It would have to be something really bad, really untoward, she saw... to make the scenario work at all.
FutzBucket
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But, if she saw something horrible, then she would have been running to the elevator.
anansie said:
Don't feel dumb. I didn't know either. Previously, I thought the water comes from a pumping station located at the base of the building. Most modern building actually enclose their water tanks inside a structure on a roof for aesthetic reasons. A lot of people don't really know about them actually.
That's one of the reasons I think that accidental or suicide is unlikely. I think I read somewhere that police have stated the same sentiments as well. "Death is suspicious" means they think foul play was involved, at least initially.
If she had been found dead on the ground from a fall, clothed or nude (but clothes found nearby), I would suspect suicide. But a water tank is a strange place to have an accident, or to commit suicide. Even more so in an altered state of mind. It's also a great place to hide a body. Imagine if they had somehow made it so that she wouldn't clog the pipe - she might never have been found (but if she was found, they'd know it would be murder right away)
Possibly kind of horrible, but maybe not so much that she thought initially she was in danger.
princessofmirth
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Okay, there was another death at the Cecil in 2003
Still trying to find out more about this crime.
http://articles.latimes.com/2003/jul/08/local/me-shoot8
Still trying to find out more about this crime.
http://articles.latimes.com/2003/jul/08/local/me-shoot8
Xavier
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Who knows for sure, maybe Elisa ran into someone who was on the rooftop, spray painting graffiti, throwing stuff down on the sidewalk for kicks, smoking dope or crack and they freaked to see somone on the 14th floor because maybe the hallways always seem like a ghost town...and it's rare anyone's walking around there?
Xavier
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Here it is Princess, the murder was 2003 --" Shortly after noon Saturday, a man was found dead in a room at the Cecil Hotel in the 600 block of South Main Street in downtown Los Angeles, a possible victim of strangulation. Police did not identify him."
http://articles.latimes.com/2003/jul/08/local/me-shoot8
To me, the elevator video looks like she is either talking to someone that just used or is going to use the shared shower/bathroom.
She's standing outside the elevator facing away - this shows a defensive posture, otherwise she would be facing the elevator. She's facing away from the elevator, because she wants to know if anyone is coming. The threat isn't that serious in her mind, it's equivalent to a "creeper", whom she's handled before.
So as she's facing away:
i) A person comes along to the right and is going to use the bathroom (check the map), and looks at her strangely, as in, "what is this girl doing standing there, facing away from an open elevator door?". She smiles embarrassingly, and says she can't see without her glasses, making "swimming gestures" showing that she's blind without them. She explains in points, using her fingers for emphasis what happened.
ii) She's talking to herself, with one eye looking out to see if the elevator door will close. She makes exaggerated hand movements while talking to herself (which some people do).
Here's a theory:
She meets a guy in the hotel, and becomes attracted to him. They go to the roof/14th/15th floor together, perhaps they have a few drinks, and he tries to make out with her. In doing so, she takes off her glasses. But when he tries to have sex with her, she refuses and runs off. She makes it to the 14th floor (if she was on the roof or 15th, she goes down one flight of stairs to lose him), and uses the elevator to go to her room. She presses the buttons to make sure he doesn't know which floor she's headed to. The reason it doesn't close is because she presses the Door Hold button by accident. (either by carelessness or drunkenness)
Someone comes from the washroom and looks at her strangely, and she explains to him/her that she can't see without her glasses, and tells him/her something, using her fingers for emphasis. She then resigns, and decides to go back to where the guy was (possibly the roof), to get her belongings back. She meets her end.
This is one theory that would explain: i) why she was on the 14th floor in the first place ii) her movements in the elevator iii) how she ended up on the roof without the need for someone to carry her body
She's standing outside the elevator facing away - this shows a defensive posture, otherwise she would be facing the elevator. She's facing away from the elevator, because she wants to know if anyone is coming. The threat isn't that serious in her mind, it's equivalent to a "creeper", whom she's handled before.
So as she's facing away:
i) A person comes along to the right and is going to use the bathroom (check the map), and looks at her strangely, as in, "what is this girl doing standing there, facing away from an open elevator door?". She smiles embarrassingly, and says she can't see without her glasses, making "swimming gestures" showing that she's blind without them. She explains in points, using her fingers for emphasis what happened.
ii) She's talking to herself, with one eye looking out to see if the elevator door will close. She makes exaggerated hand movements while talking to herself (which some people do).
Here's a theory:
She meets a guy in the hotel, and becomes attracted to him. They go to the roof/14th/15th floor together, perhaps they have a few drinks, and he tries to make out with her. In doing so, she takes off her glasses. But when he tries to have sex with her, she refuses and runs off. She makes it to the 14th floor (if she was on the roof or 15th, she goes down one flight of stairs to lose him), and uses the elevator to go to her room. She presses the buttons to make sure he doesn't know which floor she's headed to. The reason it doesn't close is because she presses the Door Hold button by accident. (either by carelessness or drunkenness)
Someone comes from the washroom and looks at her strangely, and she explains to him/her that she can't see without her glasses, and tells him/her something, using her fingers for emphasis. She then resigns, and decides to go back to where the guy was (possibly the roof), to get her belongings back. She meets her end.
This is one theory that would explain: i) why she was on the 14th floor in the first place ii) her movements in the elevator iii) how she ended up on the roof without the need for someone to carry her body
Xavier
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Kingsway good post
Say she went back to the roof to get her glasses and that's where she was killed, I wonder if LAPD really searched the roof top for any of her belongings, glasses...maybe they were stasshed in the roof area closet?
How did she die? Would a broken neck cause markings, severe brusing?
Was she suffocated? Markings might be hard to detect, I'm not sure
Was she injected with crack, heroin and had an overdose?
There were no visible wounds or beating marks on her body
What do you think?
Say she went back to the roof to get her glasses and that's where she was killed, I wonder if LAPD really searched the roof top for any of her belongings, glasses...maybe they were stasshed in the roof area closet?
How did she die? Would a broken neck cause markings, severe brusing?
Was she suffocated? Markings might be hard to detect, I'm not sure
Was she injected with crack, heroin and had an overdose?
There were no visible wounds or beating marks on her body
What do you think?
Agreed. All theories about what happened unseen on the 14th floor are just speculations without evidence of how she got there, when, was she alone, did she wear glasses or have other things with her, etc. etc.
A crucial piece of information missing here is the lobby or elevator footage of her last seen going up the hotel. I wonder if LE got this video or there is none because the footage was overwritten by newer recordings.
findinganatta
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I edited out the rest of your post following this sentence to save space, but I wanted to say that of all the theories I've read, I find this to be one of the least likely and most arbitrary. I understand that you've watched hotel security cameras for years, but what you're postulating is an incredibly detailed and specific story happening completely off-camera. I can understand if you might just be thinking through possibilities, but I can't see becoming so utterly certain of it when there are far more likely possibilities.
The way I analyze any criminal case is to start with the most obvious explanations, and if I can eliminate them then I move on to less obvious ones. That's the only logical way to do it. And of course we don't have the info to be completely eliminating very many possibilities because we're missing most of the puzzle. As long as the most obvious (and likely) possibilities have not been disproved, I'm sticking with those as my primary theories. To do otherwise is to get lost in fantasy land (which I suppose is harmless if you realize you're doing it) or egotism.
For me, the most likely current theories are:
-EL killed herself intentionally or unintentionally, either motivated by drug influence, severe mental illness, a more common reason such as depression, or out of sheer bad judgement.
-EL was murdered by one or more people who are quite familiar with the hotel, and was placed in the water tank either because it was the best hiding place, or for some other motivation.
-There was some kind of accident involving EL and at least one other person while they were on the roof that resulted in EL falling or climbing into the tank. The other person(s) decided to flee and not call the police.
Personally, I am more strongly drawn to the second theory, based on a number of facts that indicate that it's unlikely she did this on her own. I suspect that she was murdered without pre-planning on the part of the murderer (ie. an impulsive sexual killing or something like that). The murder would have been familiar with the roof, as the water tank would have come to their mind as a very logical solution to the difficult problem of getting rid of the body without being detected. Hiding it anywhere in the building for long would have resulted in a strong odor in a matter of a few days. Removing the body from the building would have required either dismemberment or a very sketchy luggage/bag of some kind, and there would still be a problem of transportation. Which is why I suspect the murder doesn't own a car. So where else could the body possibly be hidden without smelling up the hallways? Under water inside those tanks on the roof... those tanks the killer was already familiar with. And the other upside is that any evidence on her body would be washed away by current in the tank and into the building's plumbing and ultimately the sewer. Likewise, and evidence left behind on the roof would likely be washed away by weather before the body was discovered. At worst, the tank idea would buy the killer(s) time and help remove evidence (and confuse people upon the eventually discovery); at worst, the body would be discovered within days by a maintenance person or by some indication in the water system that someone noticed. Either way, the body was out of the hands of the killer(s), and no sketchy body removal was required through the building. As for the many people who have questioned why killer wouldn't have thrown the body off of the building, it seems to me that this would have drawn far more immediate attention than the water tank, and assuming the perpetrator(s) managed to not fall under immediate suspicion, it would likely have been quickly proven that EL died before falling (based on time of death, if not other signs).
Anyway, as for the motive, I suspect it's one of the few obvious reasons that young, vulnerable women alone in a big city find themselves dead. I don't see any reason to start from the perspective that she was killed by a delusional schizophrenic who saw her as a part of his strange, paranoid fantasy and decided he wasn't safe until she was placed into a water tank on a building's roof. That kind of scenario is way out in the stratosphere of extremely unlikely and rare motives--it's precisely the kind of thing someone thinks of after they've watched that elevator video too many times and their mind is off in fantasy land... which I can understand, because I was tempted to go that way myself.
But in reality, I think that video would probably be less freaky and mysterious if only we could hear the audio. I really think one of two scenarios is happening, neither of which involves her being stalked by the killer. I think she was either not in her normal mindset (drugs, mental illness, etc), OR she was messing around with someone who was either in the other elevator going up and down the floors or running up and down the stairs. It appears she was messing with someone to me. That body language expert may not have gotten some things right, but I think he nailed the general idea that she was not in fear, not real fear. There is also the possibility that she was both intoxicated on drugs AND playing an elevator/stairs game with someone. Really the only part that distinctly makes me think she was not in her right mental state is the trippy, wavy hand gesturing she does toward the end, but even that could be explained as a girl intentionally acting bizarre or crazy within the context of a playful moment with someone.
Regardless, that video may or may not represent an interaction with a killer. She could have befriended someone in the building that she was playing around with, particularly given her nature (and possible intoxication). They could have been a younger guest, even a female. All we know is that she went missing soon after that. I could easily imagine a scenario in which she met some European traveler, took some drugs (maybe ecstasy or lsd), and ended up drawing too much attention to herself and her vulnerable state in a building that has a number of people who could potentially find that kind of situation too difficult not to take advantage of.
One last thing. Further back in this thread or one of the previous ones, people were wondering if pedophiles who have sexually assaulted children would even be interested in a girl EL's age. The answer is yes, depending on the individual pedophile. Many pedophiles have also raped adult women. In fact, a pedophile killed a prostitute in another famously seedy and murder-laced historical NYC hotel, the Hotel Carter: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/cri...ody-found-times-square-hotel-article-1.236968
A lot of pedophiles are into power over weak victims, be they kids or adults. And apparently the Cecil Hotel has several sexual predators (child and otherwise) roaming the halls.
Well any possessions can be easily carried away from the site - cell phone, glasses, even clothes, so not finding them points to a murder. I simply don't believe they got sucked into the pipes, even if police are open to that possibility.
A man strong enough to carry her up the ladder to the water tank is definitely strong enough to suffocate her. Women typically like strong men as well. If she had alcohol, her resistance level might have been lower.
I honestly don't know how she was killed. There are many ways to kill someone without leaving any marks behind. The fact that she was in a water tank for 20 days complicates matters. Does a body heal to any degree after death? Does running water "erode" any markings? If the toxicology reports indicate drugs, we definitely know she had drugs in her system. But if they come out negative, does that rule out the possibility? If not, by what degree would it lower the chances?
Xavier
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IMO So where does LAPD go looking for this punk perp, it's a needle in the haystack?
If someone saw EL that night at a cafe, restaurant and they had video cams with who she was talking to or left with, or if someone in the hotel saw them together, this would be HUGE...Maybe the perp punk walked out of the hotel via the lobby, it might have security cams ?
I'm fearing this will become a long cold case until someone speaks up
Xavier
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I've wondered if LAPD looked at all the hotel lobby videocams from her check in on Jan 26 to Jan 31 to see if Elisa walked around there, talked to anyone or got on the elevator with anyone
Wondering also if LAPD's checked the elevator cams from Jan 26-31 to see if she rode the elevator with anyone?
Or if the punk perp rode down the elevator after he killed her?
I think this post explains what the police are/should be doing:
[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8964854&postcount=778"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Found Deceased CA/Canada - Elisa Lam - 21 years old - Los Angeles/Vancouver - 31-Jan-2013 - #4[/ame]
Her belongings, her activities at the hotel, and whoever she was with should be examined. Find out what she was doing on the 14th floor. Find out who knew about the roof, and possibly had knowledge of water tanks. Find out who was in the hotel that day, and where they were. It might be possible, but I don't believe police are dragging their feet on this case. Maybe when she was just "missing" - but not after she was found in a water tank. If I were a detective, I would love a case like this.
That makes it quite likely that the death occurred on the rooftop, so the perp saw the water tank as a convenient place to hide the body. But still the nagging question of why not just throw the body down, given the hassle of carrying the body up to the water tank?
One possible reason is it would give the perp more time to destroy evidence on the rooftop and escape. Throwing down the body would immediately alert LE about the death. Going along this thinking, then the perp must be either someone she met on the rooftop, or someone whom she had gone up with using the stairs. The perp would have realized that the trouble he took disposing the body and destroying evidence would be useless if he had gone up the hotel with her using the elevator.
This. I'm sure all of us have seen a comedy skit where someone does something normal, but looks totally ludicrous to someone else because the person isn't aware of the context of the situation.
Possibly they didn't go up together. Maybe they met somewhere else, and he told her to meet him in his room, or on the roof. Maybe even meet in his room, then go to the roof.
In any case, if she was with him on camera, there's nothing he can do that will eliminate him as a suspect. When someone kills someone else, their first instinct is to hide the body, not to make it immediately known. Maybe she was killed in a room, then hidden, while the perp scoured the building for a decent hiding spot. If it were a hotel employee or a long-term resident, leaving the hotel with a large suitcase would be a dead giveaway. If it were a visitor, you would have to make extra room in your luggage to fit a body, or explain how you arrived with 1 luggage, but left with 2.
I wonder if the police even saved footage from that time during her disappearance. I don't think the police were that serious about the case before she was found. They should have known that she never left the hotel because her belongings were still in her room, and they don't have footage of her taking the elevator down.
They should have been scouring every single room, including the roof, basement, dumpster and water tank. If someone doesn't let them in their room for "legal reasons", then just make a note of it and move on.
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