CA - Christopher Dorner kills 4 in tri-county rampage, Feb 2013 - #3

[shadowraiths]

I don't see dorner as too far off from Duncan. He wasn't fighting a cause unless the cause was his narcissistic sense of entitlement.

I can see how you would see the two as similar. Certainly, by the time dorner made his choice to murder people, he was engaging in self-absorbed thinking.

I'm looking at it from a different pov, I guess. Duncan was always narcissistic. It was always about him. He was also a sexual psychopath. Dorner's historical information however, indicates that he was not always so self-absorbed. Moreover, he was not a sexual psychopath. Some pages back, people were talking about his psychological makeup, wondering how he managed to get into the service and the pd. I think he was overly altruistic. And that, over time, he became embittered at the unfair world that we live in today.

Racism is toxic. It eats away at the soul. Most of us, however, would never ever even remotely consider doing what dorner chose to do. That's what sets us apart from people like him. And that's what, yes, moves people like him closer to people like duncan.

Still, having read duncan's psych reports, as well as following that case (I have no doubt, you did too), and reading dorner's files and what has been revealed wrt his military history, I see a man who broke, someone who moved to the dark place, and, instead of getting help, chose to engage in evil acts.

Can the lapd be blamed for this? Of course not. Others have encountered racism and not resorted to violent acting out. One only need to read Joe Jones experience ( link ) Moreover, for all we know, some of the wrongs he perceived were just that. Perception, and nothing more.

Importantly, I do wonder, is there a way to recognize this sort of thing in the future? Not from the outside, so much. Rather, can this be used by people to do their own internal checks and balances. I do not know. Yet, it is something that I wonder about.

 

[txsvicki]

Also, I too was hoping that the injured recover fully. Non life threatening injuries doesn't mean there might not be nerve damage, loss of use of a limb, ongoing pain and disability, etc. The same with the elderly lady who was shot because of dorner and his evil. It might he a hard recovery at that age.

 

[katydid23]

here is a compete time line of all the events (minus the mistaken identities)

http://abclocal.go.com/wpvi/story?section=news/local/inland_empire&id=8984280

the mistaken identities were both in torrance (LAPD jurisdiction) the first encounter w/ dorner and police in corona was at 1:30 am - this is at least an hour away from torrance - the ambush on the riverside police was after 2am - riverside is in the opposite direction from torrance, at least another 30 mins away so he was going east (torrance is west) at least 1 1/2 hours away w/ out traffic and we actually have a lot of traffic on the 60 frwy starting around by 4am on weekdays - and neither incidents were not by the freeway - and w/ all the lights it takes forever to get thru torrance, so that adds a lot of time

here is a map - so you can see the distance

so around 3am dorner last seen traveling east on the 60 freeway (away from torrance) and the first mistaken id was around 5am - the second shortly afterwards - so they were 2 hours away from the last sighting and in the opposite direction that dorner was reported to go :waitasec:

That doesn't matter. The undercover cops who were watching the family, are not going to ignore an oncoming truck with no headlights on, just because the last 'possible' attack was a couple of hours away. They don't know if there are accomplices involved. They had one job only at that time, and that was to protect the sleeping family.

Imagine you are a cop, putting your own life on the line everyday. Okay, because YOU signed up for that.

BUT THEN, you find out that the beautiful young daughter of a retired cop was killed because an excop was angry about being fired. And you learn that he
has declared war on YOU and ALL of your family members. How do you think those cops felt then? They are thinking their kids are going to be targets too.

How many of us can even imagine going to work under a threat like that?

 

[polleypockets]

At 2am I could get from Riverside (over in the Arlington area of the shootings) to Torrance in an hour EASY. I don't know if I follow where you were going with that though?

not any more - especially since they closed ortega hwy and all the construction on the 60 - i make the drive all the time - my parents live in palos verdes - and i used to take of my stepmom a few tmes a week - i used to leave at 4am to miss traffic but after ortega was closed soooo many times could take me almost 4 hrs to get to san pedro, so i had to start leaving at 1am to get there in 1 1/2 hours

 

[shadowraiths]

It occurs to me, one protocol that might be worth considering, is to implement a curfew when situations like this arise. That would include, notifying newspaper outlets, so they don't do paper drops, and so they can notify those who are delivering papers for them. It would also mean using their disaster alert system, to alert people not to drive around. That in turn, could reduce the number of people out and about and, hopefully, help LE who are assigned to duties such as these officers were.

 

[mister happy]

They were cops looking for him. (They did come out and say the Riverside cops WERE looking for him, despite initially saying they weren't.)

He SAID he would also kill any cops who assisted the LAPD. Any cops who came after HIM. That is what he did.

He didn't even end up killing any LAPD officers.

I don't understand why this point is so difficult for people to grasp.
He killed a cops daughter, her cop fiance and two other cops.
He only killed cops and cops family.
That is my only point. He stuck with only killing cops.

He did not kill the boat owner. (This wouldn't have helped him since he didn't get the boat.)
He did not kill the cleaning ladies at the cabin. (IF he had, he may have gotten further without the them calling the cops.)
He did not kill the man he car jacked. (If he had, cops wouldn't have known he switched vehicles.)

He didn't stick with only killing cops. He killed Monica Quan, a basketball coach.

 

[shadowraiths]

Also, I too was hoping that the injured recover fully. Non life threatening injuries doesn't mean there might not be nerve damage, loss of use of a limb, ongoing pain and disability, etc. The same with the elderly lady who was shot because of dorner and his evil. It might he a hard recovery at that age.

There is also potential psychological and emotional trauma. Even for those who are not injured. That is why post event debriefing programs are set up for first responders, etc.

 

[katydid23]

I'm confused about just when he carjacked the white pickup?

Here is what was reported on KCAL;

A housekeeper and her daughter entered a rental cabin this morning, and found Dorner hiding inside.

He had been hiding there since last Thursday. Less than a mile away from his burnt truck. He tied them up, and took their purple SUV. Two fortunate things happened. First, one of the hostages was able to untie herself and escape and call 911. And second, their SUV was on empty. :great: So he could not drive it off the mountain. Which was very lucky. He probably wanted to get rid of the purple vehicle anyway.

So he carjacked a white pick up truck, but was seen by Fish and Game, shot at them, and ran off the road trying to escape. So he ran inside the other cabin, and had a shootout with the SB Deputies, killing one, wounding another.

 

[Gracenote]

WHY does everyone keep saying that in response to my posts? lease:
I NEVER said that it was no problem since it was all cops.
I NEVER sympathized with him OR called him a hero!


I watched them move the Deputy's body from the hospital and CRIED as I watched it.
I'm not a heartless witch who doesn't care about the cops. I am simply trying to understand this man's actions!

Obviously I am not explaining myself clearly because everyone seems to think I'm just supporting a cop killer. :what:


This is like when someone says "Wow, that serial killer only killed women... he didn't kill their children who were witnesses."

I am saying "Wow, he only killed the cops/relatives. He didn't kill the people who got in his way, unless they were law enforcement."


It's an observation that goes to his frame of mind, which I would like to understand. I don't grasp why that is such a bad thing.

I also find it interesting he was CALM when he carjacked that guy. He was running from the cops, crashed a stolen car and was still CALM.

Just talking about how horrible he was, won't prevent it from happening again. I am here to try and understand.

I'm sorry; it's frustrating when people don't hear what you are saying and I have been guilty of that myself. I don't think you believe any of the killings were "ok" you were just making a point. I was glad that in spite of his threats he didn't continue to kill citizens as he went. I expected him to do that. I still think he was mentally ill and to a degree, a very small degree, he was acting out his illness. Doesn't help anything, but it may be so.

 

[polleypockets]

That doesn't matter. The undercover cops who were watching the family, are not going to ignore an oncoming truck with no headlights on, just because the last 'possible' attack was a couple of hours away. They don't know if there are accomplices involved. They had one job only at that time, and that was to protect the sleeping family.

Imagine you are a cop, putting your own life on the line everyday. Okay, because YOU signed up for that.

BUT THEN, you find out that the beautiful young daughter of a retired cop was killed because an excop was angry about being fired. And you learn that he
has declared war on YOU and ALL of your family members. How do you think those cops felt then? They are thinking their kids are going to be targets too.

How many of us can even imagine going to work under a threat like that?

it wasn't undercover police - it was patrol officers - and yes what he did was horrendous beyond words i am broken hearted i am not a cop hater, i admire them, they do something amazing, its a selfless job they take on to protect all of us - but the corruption and mismanagement of LAPD is just so horrible, which causes these problems imo - these police were acting reckless, and i blame it on their training and leadership - that is where i have a problem

 

[MsFacetious]

He didn't stick with only killing cops. He killed Monica Quan, a basketball coach.

Yes, and the daughter of a COP. I said COPS and COPS family members.
I think it was clear what I meant since I said "cops daughter."

He killed a cops daughter, her cop fiance and two other cops.
He only killed cops and cops family.
That is my only point. He stuck with only killing cops (and their family members I should have added here.)

I take the time to write it out, double check it, triple check it, spell check it... I might miss something.

But please read it twice... and if my point is still clear despite the mistake just let it slide please?

I never said Monica was a cop. I knew she was a basketball coach. Coach Mo. The daughter of a cop.

My point was clear. Cops and family members of cops. Doesn't make it right or okay. Just another piece to the puzzle. :twocents:

 

[gramcracker]

Here is what was reported on KCAL;

A housekeeper and her daughter entered a rental cabin this morning, and found Dorner hiding inside.

He had been hiding there since last Thursday. Less than a mile away from his burnt truck. He tied them up, and took their purple SUV. Two fortunate things happened. First, one of the hostages was able to untie herself and escape and call 911. And second, their SUV was on empty. :great: So he could not drive it off the mountain. Which was very lucky. He probably wanted to get rid of the purple vehicle anyway.

So he carjacked a white pick up truck, but was seen by Fish and Game, shot at them, and ran off the road trying to escape. So he ran inside the other cabin, and had a shootout with the SB Deputies, killing one, wounding another.

less than 1000 feet from the burned truck

 

[katydid23]

WHY does everyone keep saying that in response to my posts? lease:
I NEVER said that it was no problem since it was all cops.
I NEVER sympathized with him OR called him a hero!


I watched them move the Deputy's body from the hospital and CRIED as I watched it.
I'm not a heartless witch who doesn't care about the cops. I am simply trying to understand this man's actions!

Obviously I am not explaining myself clearly because everyone seems to think I'm just supporting a cop killer. :what:


This is like when someone says "Wow, that serial killer only killed women... he didn't kill their children who were witnesses."

I am saying "Wow, he only killed the cops/relatives. He didn't kill the people who got in his way, unless they were law enforcement."


It's an observation that goes to his frame of mind, which I would like to understand. I don't grasp why that is such a bad thing.

I also find it interesting he was CALM when he carjacked that guy. He was running from the cops, crashed a stolen car and was still CALM.

Just talking about how horrible he was, won't prevent it from happening again. I am here to try and understand.

I'm sorry. :loveyou:

I think it was this that I was reacting to:



"I don't understand why this point is so difficult for people to grasp.
He killed a cops daughter, her cop fiance and two other cops.
He only killed cops and cops family.
That is my only point. He stuck with only killing cops."



I know you didn't mean it to, but it SOUNDED like it didn't matter as much if they are ' only' cops that are kill4d. Some of us are very sensitive to that. There is a big backlash now, making it seem like it is heroic to kill the LAPD these days.

 

[Seajay]

Charred remains have been found inside the burned out cabin. It has not been identified. Source: ABC7 News.

 

[txsvicki]

Cops are who he blamed for recent problems. He pretty much said it all in the manifesto. He was so consumed he felt he had the right to harm their children to hurt those cops. That same paranoia and blame and picking apart what he imagined others said or meant seemed to have went way back to childhood. If true, how did he get so far in military or into the police force with such a bitter suspicious personality.

 

[shadowraiths]

I signed up for the San Bernardino Sheriff's alert, and received the following advisory notice in my email, which I just now checked:

Advisory: Search for murder suspect, Christopher Dorner - Officer Involved Shooting

Hi ******,

DATE/TIME Tuesday, February 12, 2013 at 8:59 p.m.
INCIDENT: Search for Murder Suspect/Officer Involved Shooting
LOCATION: Big Bear Valley
SUSPECT: Christopher Jordan Dorner, 33 years of age – 6’0”, 270 lbs, blk hair, brn eyes

SUMMARY:
UPDATE: On Tuesday, February 12, 2013 at 12:22 p.m, deputies working the Big Bear area search for Christopher Dorner responded to the 1200 block of Club View Dr. for a reported stolen vehicle. The reporting party said the suspect took their vehicle and described the suspect as looking very similar to Dorner. Deputies immediately began a search on the ground and from the air for the vehicle.
The vehicle was located at Hwy 38 and Glass Rd.

The suspect fled into the forest and barricaded himself inside a cabin. A short time later there was an exchange of gunfire between law enforcement and the suspect. Two San Bernardino County Sheriff’s deputies were injured during the gunfire and taken to the Loma Linda Hospital. At approximately 2:24 p.m., one of the deputies was pronounced deceased. The deputy wounded in today’s incident has undergone surgery and medical personnel are optimistic as to his recovery. However, it is believed several additional surgeries will be required.

A fire erupted in the cabin in which the suspect had barricaded himself. The cabin remains unsafe for investigators to enter and it is unknown when the structure will be deemed safe. It is believed the suspect is inside the cabin. Homicide investigators have responded and are conducting an investigation.

A press conference is scheduled for tomorrow at 4:00 p.m. at Sheriff’s Headquarters located at 655 E. Third Street in San Bernardino. ​

 

[katydid23]

it wasn't undercover police - it was patrol officers - and yes what he did was horrendous beyond words i am broken hearted i am not a cop hater, i admire them, they do something amazing, its a selfless job they take on to protect all of us - but the corruption and mismanagement of LAPD is just so horrible, which causes these problems imo - these police were acting reckless, and i blame it on their training and leadership - that is where i have a problem

The patrol cops were guarding the home UNDERCOVER. They were not visible.

THe LAPD has come a very long way. It is not like the old days.

And the training of the LAPD is considered among the finest in the nation. They receive more extensive, professional training in that academy than anywhere else in the country.

Those cops made a split second decision, and it was the WRONG decision. If it had been Dorner and they hesitated, they would have been dead or fired.

Dorner got a fair hearing. It was his word against his training officer. The two witnesses at the hotel backed up the training officers story. The medic on scene backed up her story. And the arrestee never said to the medic, the intake officer or the judge, anything about being kicked. So why should the training officer be discounted over Dorner?

 

[gitana1]

here is a compete time line of all the events (minus the mistaken identities)

http://abclocal.go.com/wpvi/story?section=news/local/inland_empire&id=8984280

the mistaken identities were both in torrance (LAPD jurisdiction) the first encounter w/ dorner and police in corona was at 1:30 am - this is at least an hour away from torrance - the ambush on the riverside police was after 2am - riverside is in the opposite direction from torrance, at least another 30 mins away so he was going east (torrance is west) at least 1 1/2 hours away w/ out traffic and we actually have a lot of traffic on the 60 frwy starting around by 4am on weekdays - and neither incidents were not by the freeway - and w/ all the lights it takes forever to get thru torrance, so that adds a lot of time

here is a map - so you can see the distance

so around 3am dorner last seen traveling east on the 60 freeway (away from torrance) and the first mistaken id was around 5am - the second shortly afterwards - so they were 2 hours away from the last sighting and in the opposite direction that dorner was reported to go :waitasec:

I'm a bit confused. If you are from here, surely you have seen car chases. The suspect roams around in circles generally. Just because a madman was last seen going a certain direction does not mean he was unable to double back.

WHY does everyone keep saying that in response to my posts? lease:
I NEVER said that it was no problem since it was all cops.
I NEVER sympathized with him OR called him a hero!


I watched them move the Deputy's body from the hospital and CRIED as I watched it.
I'm not a heartless witch who doesn't care about the cops. I am simply trying to understand this man's actions!

Obviously I am not explaining myself clearly because everyone seems to think I'm just supporting a cop killer. :what:


This is like when someone says "Wow, that serial killer only killed women... he didn't kill their children who were witnesses."

I am saying "Wow, he only killed the cops/relatives. He didn't kill the people who got in his way, unless they were law enforcement."


It's an observation that goes to his frame of mind, which I would like to understand. I don't grasp why that is such a bad thing.

I also find it interesting he was CALM when he carjacked that guy. He was running from the cops, crashed a stolen car and was still CALM.

Just talking about how horrible he was, won't prevent it from happening again. I am here to try and understand.

I guess that repeating the fact that he didn't kill anyone unrelated to LE kind of makes it seem that you could be saying he was not as bad as all that and really saw himself as in a holy war and/or justified. Because otherwise, there would be no reason to keep mentioning it as there is nothing to understand: He said he was going to target cops and their families which is what he did.

But I certainly don;t think you are brushing off his murders or sympathizing in any way.

I can see how you would see the two as similar. Certainly, by the time dorner made his choice to murder people, he was engaging in self-absorbed thinking.

I'm looking at it from a different pov, I guess. Duncan was always narcissistic. It was always about him. He was also a sexual psychopath. Dorner's historical information however, indicates that he was not always so self-absorbed. Moreover, he was not a sexual psychopath. Some pages back, people were talking about his psychological makeup, wondering how he managed to get into the service and the pd. I think he was overly altruistic. And that, over time, he became embittered at the unfair world that we live in today.

Racism is toxic. It eats away at the soul. Most of us, however, would never ever even remotely consider doing what dorner chose to do. That's what sets us apart from people like him. And that's what, yes, moves people like him closer to people like duncan.

Still, having read duncan's psych reports, as well as following that case (I have no doubt, you did too), and reading dorner's files and what has been revealed wrt his military history, I see a man who broke, someone who moved to the dark place, and, instead of getting help, chose to engage in evil acts.

Can the lapd be blamed for this? Of course not. Others have encountered racism and not resorted to violent acting out. One only need to read Joe Jones experience ( link ) Moreover, for all we know, some of the wrongs he perceived were just that. Perception, and nothing more.

Importantly, I do wonder, is there a way to recognize this sort of thing in the future? Not from the outside, so much. Rather, can this be used by people to do their own internal checks and balances. I do not know. Yet, it is something that I wonder about.

Well yes, I admit to really simplifying things. I'm just looking at the evil scale not the causation scale. But certainly, duncan's mind is far different and far more evil than dorner's. dorner's likely delusional narcissism and persecution complex is vastly different than duncan's psychopathology.

But looking at it in terms of what sentences each could merit and the level of premeditation, dorner is an evil murderer. He wanted to tortrue people mentally. Killing cop's family members was similar to duncan making Shasta watch video of him killing Dylan. Not as horrific but getting up there.

As to racism, I simply do not see that as an excuse for dorner's mental issues. Not at all. Reading his manifesto, reading the accounts of the arrest he was ultimately fired over, and just the fact of the murders themselves make him utterly lack credibility.

Cypress and Norwalk where dorner grew up are not hotbeds of racism. Did he experience racism in his life? Every black person does. Every one. But also I believe that dorner exaggerated and nursed every perceived racist encounter and then used racism to justify why he wasn't getting the accolades and recognition he unjustly felt he deserved. I think racism was an excuse for him, for his mediocrity and anger.

And listen, I'm no secret racist or a person who believes people of color "make everything racial" where they shouldn't. I believe that people of color experience entrenched institutional and cultural racism on a daily basis, from salespersons who follow them around in the store merely because of their skin tone, or from women who clutch their purses and rush to the other side of the street when they pass, from cops who call three backups to handle the traffic infraction of an elderly black man, from potential employers who throw their resume to the bottom of the pile because the name seems "too ethnic", from a justice system that punishes those who commit crimes against minorities with slaps on the wrist while punishing minorities twice as hard as white people who commit the same crimes, by people who automatically assume and believe they were the aggressor in any altercation, due to a subconscious sense that black people are inherently violent, etc., etc.

You just can't convince me that this was dorner's problem or that dorner broke from having to deal with this kind of daily belittlement. dorner, IMO, was a spoiled brat who went to good, private schools and lived in decent, Southern California neighborhood, and who seethed with narcissistic rage when the rest of the world didn't see him as he saw himself. Profiling mass murder cases and studying the psych exams of multiple people (due to my family law practice), as well as reading dorner's manifesto and about his case, and looking at his criminal conduct, has led me to that belief.

I don;t think there is much that can be done to prevent what happened from happening unless police academies do not include psych evals as part of their process. The system of checks and balances was in place. dorner's contract was not renewed when they realized they had a problem on their hands: A guy with rage issues who lied about other cops. They got rid of him which is what they were supposed to do. I don;t know what else they could have done. I think he would have gone on a rampage if he had never been hired by the LAPD. he just would have had a different target.

It occurs to me, one protocol that might be worth considering, is to implement a curfew when situations like this arise. That would include, notifying newspaper outlets, so they don't do paper drops, and so they can notify those who are delivering papers for them. It would also mean using their disaster alert system, to alert people not to drive around. That in turn, could reduce the number of people out and about and, hopefully, help LE who are assigned to duties such as these officers were.

That's martial law.

Here is what was reported on KCAL;

A housekeeper and her daughter entered a rental cabin this morning, and found Dorner hiding inside.

He had been hiding there since last Thursday. Less than a mile away from his burnt truck. He tied them up, and took their purple SUV. Two fortunate things happened. First, one of the hostages was able to untie herself and escape and call 911. And second, their SUV was on empty. :great: So he could not drive it off the mountain. Which was very lucky. He probably wanted to get rid of the purple vehicle anyway.

So he carjacked a white pick up truck, but was seen by Fish and Game, shot at them, and ran off the road trying to escape. So he ran inside the other cabin, and had a shootout with the SB Deputies, killing one, wounding another.

So much for allowing people back on the slopes and into Big Bear because it was safe. Money is tight for many people and businesses in the area. Missing even a few days of ski season or losing tourism and skiers as a result of fear could be very damaging to some.

That JAWS scene you all were discussing about it being safe to go back in the water is really a lesson to be learned. I knew I didn't want to go anywhere near Big Bear until he was caught!

 

[polleypockets]

The patrol cops were guarding the home UNDERCOVER. They were not visible.

THe LAPD has come a very long way. It is not like the old days.

And the training of the LAPD is considered among the finest in the nation. They receive more extensive, professional training in that academy than anywhere else in the country.

Those cops made a split second decision, and it was the WRONG decision. If it had been Dorner and they hesitated, they would have been dead or fired.

Dorner got a fair hearing. It was his word against his training officer. The two witnesses at the hotel backed up the training officers story. The medic on scene backed up her story. And the arrestee never said to the medic, the intake officer or the judge, anything about being kicked. So why should the training officer be discounted over Dorner?

this is from the los angeles times link i just posted about the second mistaken id
"David Perdue was on his way to sneak in some surfing before work Thursday morning when police flagged him down. They asked who he was and where he was headed, then sent him on his way.

Seconds later, Perdue's attorney said, a Torrance police cruiser slammed into his pickup and officers opened fire; none of the bullets struck Perdue.

His pickup, police later explained, matched the description of the one belonging to Christopher Jordan Dorner — the ex-cop who has evaded authorities after allegedly killing three and wounding two more. But the pickups were different makes and colors. And Perdue looks nothing like Dorner: He's several inches shorter and about a hundred pounds lighter. And Perdue is white; Dorner is black."

 

[gitana1]

Cops are who he blamed for recent problems. He pretty much said it all in the manifesto. He was so consumed he felt he had the right to harm their children to hurt those cops. That same paranoia and blame and picking apart what he imagined others said or meant seemed to have went way back to childhood. If true, how did he get so far in military or into the police force with such a bitter suspicious personality.

Nuts sometimes slip through the cracks. But his issues might have been made worse by combat.