CA - Elliot Rodger kills 6, injures 13 in Isla Vista, Near UC Santa Barbara, #2

[jjenny]

Coverage of [ER] stirs debate after Isla Vista rampage

... Crime expert [JAF] said mass murderers typically leave writings as a form of justification.

"It's very important [to them] that the world doesn't view them as some nut that killed for no reason," said [JAF], who has written several books on mass shootings. "In their minds, they are good guys." ...

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/...nds-of-isla-vista-victims-20140528-story.html

Not all of them, obviously. Lanza destroyed all of his writings, or whatever it is he kept on his computer.

 

[lawstudent]

You bring up interesting points...

and I am not well enough versed to even attempt to make any diagnoses
(I have a masters in Psychology... But have forgotten 90% of what I learned..:blushing

But ... I do believe there is a difference between psychopaths and sociopaths...

though these differences may be vague...

In short... as it pertains to ER... He could (IMO) be a psychopath... Who tend to be loners...

ER was not a sociopath... As sociopaths can be charming and sociable... And their true depravity is not witnessed until someone gets in the way of what they want...

All... JMO...and very simplified...

I had looked up the difference between the two once and saw them listed as synonyms, so I assumed they were the same thing.

I found this explanation and now I understand more:

Research suggests that, “psychopaths are a stable proportion of any population, can be from any segment of society, may constitute a distinct taxonomical class forged by frequency-dependent natural selection, and that the muting of the social emotions is the proximate mechanism that enables psychopaths to pursue their self-centered goals without felling the pangs of guilt. Sociopaths are more the products of adverse environmental experiences that affect autonomic nervous system and neurological development that may lead to physiological responses similar to those of psychopaths. Antisocial personality disorder is a legal/clinical label that may be applied to both psychopaths and sociopaths” (Walsh & Wu, 2008).

I would agree with you that he would be a psychopath, but I didn't think that one was more charming than another - just that one is born that way and one is made that way. They both don't feel emotions normally, so they don't feel guilt, but I think both can be charming if they are intelligent enough to figure out they need to be. When you don't feel bad or nervous, you can be quite convincing.

 

[Quester]

Not all of them, obviously. Lanza destroyed all of his writings, or whatever it is he kept on his computer.

Speaking of computers ...

Haven't read anything about LE having recovered ER's computer, though I'm sure they did. Hopefully it was not destroyed as AL made darn sure his was and as you pointed out.

 

[IHAVENOCLUE]

I had looked up the difference between the two once and saw them listed as synonyms, so I assumed they were the same thing.

I found this explanation and now I understand more:

Research suggests that, “psychopaths are a stable proportion of any population, can be from any segment of society, may constitute a distinct taxonomical class forged by frequency-dependent natural selection, and that the muting of the social emotions is the proximate mechanism that enables psychopaths to pursue their self-centered goals without felling the pangs of guilt. Sociopaths are more the products of adverse environmental experiences that affect autonomic nervous system and neurological development that may lead to physiological responses similar to those of psychopaths. Antisocial personality disorder is a legal/clinical label that may be applied to both psychopaths and sociopaths” (Walsh & Wu, 2008).

I would agree with you that he would be a psychopath, but I didn't think that one was more charming than another - just that one is born that way and one is made that way. They both don't feel emotions normally, so they don't feel guilt, but I think both can be charming if they are intelligent enough to figure out they need to be. When you don't feel bad or nervous, you can be quite convincing.

Thank you, LawStudent!

Interesting quote above...

The absence of experiencing guilt is central to both psychopaths and sociopaths...

therein lies the scariest factor...

 

[PPKik]

THis is a short, but very revealing interview with a "close friend" of ER's, interspersed with ER's "Retribution" rant.

Many Thanks to YESorNO on the Arias Sidebar for finding this and posting!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I2qBBBvYQOA

This has probably been posted and re-posted, but maybe some people haven't seen this so am posting again!

 

[Whiteorchids]

I agree it is an injustice, but I do not think those conditions resemble each other enough to result in a botched diagnosis. Being on the spectrum is not just defined by some social ineptness - other behaviors are looked at. Most people are not diagnosed as sociopaths until they are much older because it is not at all as apparent what is wrong with them. They may not experience the same emotions, but they are generally not socially inept. They pick up on social expectations and accept them to get by like most young children who cannot yet appreciate why they have to act in certain ways, but show anomalies in what they are comfortable doing - the violence with animals or siblings, for example. Then they can act like any kid who got in trouble and promise they won't do it again. Children on the spectrum don't just switch back and forth and immediately fall into line with expectations once they realize something isn't right. And they usually do not have the boundary-pushing mentality of sociopath who starts engaging in violence or crimes because their interests are self-focused. Even if someone on the spectrum learns how to fit in well, except on the very lowest end which really should not result in an Asperger's diagnosis, they are most likely not going to be considered charming. Sociopaths can be. You always hear someone say "he was amazing - I never would have found out it was all a front - he was a complete sociopath." You never hear someone say "he was amazing - then I found out he had Asperger's and it was all fake." It's just not that type of disorder.



It is possible he had multiple issues, one of which was Asperger's or being on the spectrum. He doesn't seem like merely a sociopath because he probably would have been able to fake being an appealing boyfriend and normal kid eventually. He also doesn't seem to be merely autistic because they are generally non-violent and if they are, generally do not commit such crimes. Then you have supposedly hearing voices. I wonder if it is schizophrenia and being on the spectrum, and maybe being a sociopath as well. I could see that being an awful combination, and the similarities between Lanza and Holmes always get me in that they seem to maybe have suffered from such a combination and presented pretty atypically. My general impression of sociopaths seems to be that they just don't care and will take what they want - not that they go on and on about how they are hurt by the injustices done to them. They may be self-centered and feel everyone should bow down to them, but this seems to be a more insecure anger that indicates there are feelings and a desire to connect.

Where was it reported he was hearing voices? TIA

 

[Quester]

UCSB Shooter[ER] Refused His Psychiatric Medicines, His Parents Now In Hiding

... also “heard voices.” ...

http://radaronline.com/exclusives/2...used-psychiatric-medicines-parents-in-hiding/

 

[Quester]

Map of IV which was handed out at SBCSO's press conference on 5/24, IIRC:

http://www.edhat.com/daypics2011/SBSO_locationmap.jpg

 

[Sunshine95]

I had looked up the difference between the two once and saw them listed as synonyms, so I assumed they were the same thing.

I found this explanation and now I understand more:

Research suggests that, “psychopaths are a stable proportion of any population, can be from any segment of society, may constitute a distinct taxonomical class forged by frequency-dependent natural selection, and that the muting of the social emotions is the proximate mechanism that enables psychopaths to pursue their self-centered goals without felling the pangs of guilt. Sociopaths are more the products of adverse environmental experiences that affect autonomic nervous system and neurological development that may lead to physiological responses similar to those of psychopaths. Antisocial personality disorder is a legal/clinical label that may be applied to both psychopaths and sociopaths” (Walsh & Wu, 2008).

I would agree with you that he would be a psychopath, but I didn't think that one was more charming than another - just that one is born that way and one is made that way. They both don't feel emotions normally, so they don't feel guilt, but I think both can be charming if they are intelligent enough to figure out they need to be. When you don't feel bad or nervous, you can be quite convincing.

Do you have a link or title for this? I'd like to read it! I typically go by DSM-5 diagnosis antisocial personality disorder, and have thought of psychopaths and sociopaths as the same, curious to read their take or research on it! TIA

 

[lawstudent]

Where was it reported he was hearing voices? TIA

Yes, but the media does get a long wrong so it is possible it will turn out to be untrue. Most of the information we have about his mental health, other than that he struggled with mental health problems, is pretty tenuous at this point. It wasn't a real reliable source, maybe Radar OnLine, but in my personal experience, CNN and RadarOnline have the same level of accuracy nowadays, so who knows. I think they quoted a relative.

 

[ATasteOfHoney]

I am pretty sure there was a time peroid in the last 5 weeks where mom made him remove the posts and then he reposted closer to his decision that he cant he live with the pain anymore

also anyne heard any thing on autopsy of the roomates? I have been wodnering if time of death varied between each victim.

So mom notices the bizarre Youtube videos a month or so before the "retribution" and orders him to take them down-----but I'm sure others noticed them while they were up, no?

And if mom thought they were so bizarre, why would the solution to ER's problems be simply be to take down the videos? As if that would solve anything? The videos were merely an expression/symptom of something more deadly brewing inside ER.

Is it any wonder why mom knew it was him that did the shooting before it was even cofirmed that night? She was intimately familiar with the videos!!!

It is politically incorrect to cast the sophmoric "blame" on anyone and yet we as a society must think of how we can explore the solutions. IF we don't, we as a society will suffer more of the same (Elliott, Lanza, Holmes, etc).

It's not about "blame".....it is about a comprehensive understanding en toto. The roots of the problem often start at a young age so naturally we must look at the parents for what they observed, what they did do and didn't do (and why) and to obtain from them their honest critique and evaluation. But that takes a lot of guts, a lot of insight, and most certainly going against your lawyers advice, iykwim?

 

[lawstudent]

Do you have a link or title for this? I'd like to read it! I typically go by DSM-5 diagnosis antisocial personality disorder, and have thought of psychopaths and sociopaths as the same, curious to read their take or research on it! TIA

The source is a blog I'm not positive I can link to, but if you put that paragraph into Google, it will come up. It's quoting a book of some sort.

The DSM combines them because the symptoms are the same, but I guess some people draw a distinction between those with more of a biological basis and those with more of a social basis. But I believe the DSM takes the view that all disorders are a mix of both (and really, your brain is a body part made up of complex processes, so they are all biological), and perhaps isn't as interested in the reason why. There's a lot of disagreement - the DSM removed Asperger's as a diagnosis and made some other changes based on social ideas (homosexuality being a mental illness, then being removed).

 

[ATasteOfHoney]

Do you have a link or title for this? I'd like to read it! I typically go by DSM-5 diagnosis antisocial personality disorder, and have thought of psychopaths and sociopaths as the same, curious to read their take or research on it! TIA

They are most certainly NOT the same. There is a lot of info and research on both topics if you want to explore them on the internet.

 

[lawstudent]

So mom notices the bizarre Youtube videos a month or so before the "retribution" and orders him to take them down-----but I'm sure others noticed them while they were up, no?

And if mom thought they were so bizarre, why would the solution to ER's problems be simply be to take down the videos? As if that would solve anything? The videos were merely an expression/symptom of something more deadly brewing inside ER.

Is it any wonder why mom knew it was him that did the shooting before it was even cofirmed that night? She was intimately familiar with the videos!!!

It is politically incorrect to cast the sophmoric "blame" on anyone and yet we as a society must think of how we can explore the solutions. IF we don't, we as a society will suffer more of the same (Elliott, Lanza, Holmes, etc).

It's not about "blame".....it is about a comprehensive understanding en toto. The roots of the problem often start at a young age so naturally we must look at the parents for what they observed, what they did do and didn't do (and why) and to obtain from them their honest critique and evaluation. But that takes a lot of guts, a lot of insight, and most certainly going against your lawyers advice, iykwim?

If he didn't have any followers on YouTube, it may not have been noticed. So many people post long boring videos that most people do not watch or only watch a few seconds of.

Totally agree with your analysis of the concept of "blame" - it's largely a fiction and gets us nowhere. There are many factors involved and we have to look at all of them to figure out if we can improve anything - oversimplifying the issue and dismissing it as the fault of a person or two isn't going to prevent this. Whatever people think is "deserved" or "just", it doesn't change reality, which doesn't operate on principles of what people deserve.

 

[Quester]

UoP community rallies behind UC Santa Barbara shooting victim
http://www.news10.net/story/news/local/stockton/2014/05/28/local-isla-vista-victim/9650697/

 

[Tulessa]

You guys might be interested in this, but I'm not wasting another two hours of my time on this guy.

[video=youtube;oybAUKZhaMA]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oybAUKZhaMA[/video]

 

[Quester]

"The Truth" according to who? TIA

 

[Disguiseduser0308]

UBM

I disagree that the 'help and resources' are there. That is not at all what I have experienced. Someone like ER, who was able to hold an intelligent conversation and stay focused and polite, was not going to be eligible for a forced hospitalization.

Even if someone makes wild and crazy threats, that alone is not enough to force them into an institution. At least not under the present legal requirements.

I can only relay my own experiences and that of other family members. Of course, this is coming from people who recognized there was a problem and sought help for them.

It's a difficult fight for most people. As it should be, we can't have everyone committed just because... This is where our investigative powers need to come in.

It truly is difficult deal with an adult who has mental health issues. There's lots of red tape and with HIPAA families are left in the dark more often than not.

This is where we need to fight. Be an advocate. Be there. FWIW my husband hates this about me. I'm always thinking if there's a will, there's a way. Hopeless mostly. :blushing:

 

[CARIIS]

hi
I wil try to find it it was the one with that Housewifes stuff on it
Taste of Honey: Re the videos and mom having hims take them down

His only threat to others was his final video, posted what hours before he started killing others.

When LE went there they were only there to do a sucide deal -- that is how you do it you ask are you thinking of hurting yourself. When an individual who is articulate, dressed, clear in thougtht denies it you CANT take him in. What would happen is if he gets taken in, the person in intake would do the same thing, and he would present as rationial while denying any suicidal ideation. Were looking at this whole last 5 weeks in totatality - if we go back to step at time from beginning what mom did what LE did at THE time was the only thing that could be done.

In the same many feel he was just a nut - a psycopath is becasue of his intelgence. Many are inteligent suffer with valid and real mental illiness - it just is not the only people who are talking to door knobs are truly mentally ill . YOu would be surprised at how many folks who are will say yes,

. We need to remember that we all are putting all the videos together. It is crucial that recall that all the other videos except the final one were not threatening.
Mom, did a caring thing. On all the other videos they are suicidal- i want to feel worthy, i am lonelly, i want to be held etcetc. None of them were threatening to others.

Mom was congruent in her caring behavirs- she saw them , became alarmed (high suicide risk) called authorties to have him checked, back then they had no reason to think homicide, nor would mom or his therapist .

And think about it - if any of us clicked play ON ANY of his video , turned off the volume and watched there would be no reason to think he was suffering with an illiness - that is what LE "saw" that day

Here are a handfull of folks (many of the later generation have come forward casue the stigma is less". None of these guys are talking to things not there, they are highly functioning, creative etcetc suffering:

[FONT=&quot]Audrey Hepburn[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]clinical depression; eating disorders[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Paul Simon[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]clinical depression[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Paula Abdul[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]bullimia nervosa[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]na Jolie[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]depression and self harm[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]James Taylor[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]clinical depression; bipolar disorder[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Jane Fonda[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]bulimia nervosa[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Ben Stiller[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]bipolar disorder[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Ben Vereen[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]clinical depression[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Benjamin Disraeli[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]clinical depression[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Billy Joel[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]alcohol and depression[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Brian Wilson[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]bipolar disorder[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Britney Spears[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]bipolar and post natal depression[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Brooke Shields[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]postpartum depression[/FONT]



[FONT=&quot]catherine zeta jones[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]bipolar II[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Charles “Buddy” Bolden[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]schizophrenia[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Charles Darwin[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]severe panic disorder[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Charles Dickens[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]clinical depression; bipolar disorder (suspected)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Charles Faust[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]schizophrenia[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Charles Schulz[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]clinical depression[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Charles Schwab[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]dyslexia[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Charley Pell[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]clinical depression[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Charley Pride[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]bipolar disorder; alcoholism[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Clara Bow[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]clinical depression[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Cole Porter[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]clinical depression; alcoholism; paranoid delusions; obsessive-compulsive disorder (speculated)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Connie Francis[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]clinical depression[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Courtney Love[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]drub abuse, clinical depression[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Craig Ferguson[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]alcoholic[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Craig McCaw[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]dyslexia[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Dame Kelly Holmes[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]depression and self harm[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Damon Wayans[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]clinical depression[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Daniel Johns[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]clinical depression; anxiety disorder;eating disorder [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Danny Glover[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]learning disability[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Darryl Strawberry[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]clinical depression[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]David Boies[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]dyslexia[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]David Bowie[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]crying but not diagnosed but lots of family mental health issues[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]David Murdock[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]dyslexia[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Delta Burke[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]depression and compulsive hoarding[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Denise Welch[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]nervous breakdown[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Diane Arbus[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]clinical depression[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Dick Cavett[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]depression – found electro shock therapy helpful[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Dick Clark[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]clinical depression[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Dimitrius Underwood[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]bipolar disorder[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]DMX[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]bipolar[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Dolly Parton[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]clinical depression[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Donald Trump[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]possible OCD[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Donny Osmond[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]clinical depression; social phobia[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Dorothy Day[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]clinical depression[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Doug Ferrari[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]borderline personality disorder[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Drew Carey[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]clinical depression[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Harrison Ford[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]clinical depression[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Elton John [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]substance abuse and bulimia[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Ernest Hemingway[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]clinical depression[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Eugene O’Neill[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]clinical depression[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]F. Scott Fitzgerald[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]clinical depression[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Fiona Phillips[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]depression[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Frances Lear[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]bipolar disorder;, substance abuse[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Francis Ford Coppola[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]bipolar disorder[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Frank Bruno[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]bipolar[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Frank Lloyd Wright[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]clinical depression[/FONT]
http://amandagreenauthor.co.uk/300-...ues-help-highlight-the-stigma-in-our-society/

 

[Disguiseduser0308]

hi
I wil try to find it it was the one with that Housewifes stuff on it

Taste of Honey: Re the videos and mom having hims take them down. We need to remember that were putting all the videos together. It is crucial that recall that all the other videos except the final one were not threatening.
Mom, did a caring thing. On all the other videos they are suicidal- i want to feel worthy, i am lonelly, i want to be held etcetc. None of them were threatening to others.

Mom was congruent in her caring behavirs- she saw them , became alarmed (high suicide risk) called authorties to have him checked, back then they had no reason to think homicide, nor would mom or his therapist .

His only threat to others was his final video, posted what hours before he started killing others.

When LE went there they were only there to do a sucide deal -- that is how you do are you thinking of hurting yourself. YOu would be surprised at how many folks who are will say yes,

Does anyone know which video ER's mother watched that set off alarms for her? Most were pretty meh. Others he was voicing his desire to hurt others. His death was only perfunctory to avoid being imprisoned for the rest of his life.