CA CA - Hannah, 16, Devonte, 15, & Sierra Hart, 12, Mendocino County, 26 March 2018 #1

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The link from Nancy Grace has videos, not photos, of the kids, in the home. It did not look like a home that had 6 kids living in it.

Holy mackerel!! That is a pristinely absolutely perfect show place of a home for a Friday night after a full work week in a house with so many kids and pets!

Of course it's possible to have a house that clean and have tons of kids. Not common but possible. However, coupled with everything else we know about these people...it's more red flags for me.
 
I think the person being quoted is mis-representing events. He "presumes" DH was terrified. Why does he presume this? Did he talk to DH? Does he know DH? There are a lot of reasons why DH was crying at that moment. This was a hugely emotionally charged moment in Portland and in the country. He is a young black male, in a society that views him as violent and dangerous as a rule. He could have been sad, overwhelmed, scared, angry.... This family went into seclusion after this event because DH's photo was spread around the world, without his permission. As a juvenile, any media sharing his photo would have had to have his family's permission, which they did not give. They were harassed, and received death threats (lesbian couple, six black kids, lots of reasons for simple-minded, racist, homophobic folks to get upset...)

The simpler story is likely the truth. Family deeply involved in social justice, kid goes to many events carrying his free hugs sign, at this event the kid is overwhelmed by the situation and Ferguson, being a black boy. He may have real fear of cops at that point, which would be understandable....

I always thought Devonte's tearful face was a bit odd in the context of the photo. Why did the other photographer presume Devonte was 'terrified'? Maybe because he had access to seeing the run-up to the photo and saw terror and upset in the boy's face prior to the hug and that was his impression?

As one of the moms is going around (see the youtube link) claiming these incidents of 'free hugs' in front of crowds of people that get on camera and end up on YouTube, maybe it was the death threats and insults that helped to solidify the need for seclusion rather than the photo being spread around the world?

But why were these children taken to these events, all with their own sign, and maybe being thrust forward to be a focus of attention?

This is a child with a mixed race family. Why do I feel like they are promoting the concept of racial discomfort and fear in their children almost as if their children are accessories to their causes and not just 'their children'? If you stand back outside of the political spectrum and think about it, for me I don't really like when parents seem to promote paranoia in their children, and I'm a bit concerned that these mothers were trying to instill paranoia rather than bring up kids to know what's out there in the world, good and bad, and to figure out ways to surround themselves with the good things? I wonder if the Ferguson protests were playing into a narrative these women were creating for the kids "hey kids, you're black, you're not truly safe with anyone but us your parents who love you" (despite the occasional beating which, of course, is all your fault!)

Bringing kids up to be aware of the world is one thing, but should there be limits as to how far you thrust them into those issues before their minds are mature enough to handle them better? What if...these kids were being used the way the West---something church uses their children at protests? What if they're both wrong to insinuate the children into the adult's causes in this way and not just the people with the cause that we find repulsive?

What if the officer in that photo was responding as a human being to a crying child? What if the 'free hugs' sign gave him the confidence to say (in a charged situation) "let me give you a hug, because you look like you need it" (not because the child was carrying a sign, not because of black and white, not because of riots, but because there's a child who looks upset and the response is to give him a hug? And why does Devonte look like he's in a flood of tears clinging on for dear life to that officer?

There's no reason for Devonte not to be upset and fearful with the level of emotions around him, but the response by his mother is apparently to take him aside and push him forward into the spotlight, not say "is this too much for you, let me give you a hug and we'll go home".

Sometimes we see what we want to see. I think I'm starting to see signs of of things I definitely don't want to see. Without the abuse allegations and the stories from the neighbors I probably would think it was that simple, but now I'm wondering if it's not that simple and the simple, nice, side of it is more of a facade. I have a fear those kids weren't being protected from their fears of the bad things in the world, but that maybe they were being taught how to think, how to feel, instead of gentle age-appropriate discussions in the safety of their own home, and if when they're 18 and at college they want to go out on a protest themselves, then that's their decision.

I think there's a conundrum in how to bring up a child in a world where certain things happen, and how to find a balance between awareness for the growing child, but also ensure they grow up feeling safe and loved and being able to see the good in the world and the good people in the world and to not let the fears take control. I think one of the moms used the same kind of words about this is a black teen who's going to soon be a young black man that society views in a certain (negative) way. But was he also being reminded of the huge section of society that views him like his mothers do, as the person inside? And then I look at the allegations being made by the kids about the way their mothers treat them...restricting them to bed, withholding food, cold baths, beatings...

Maybe it is too simple to see this as some idealized family of white lesbian parents with black and mixed race kids all living in harmony and striving for a better world and better tomorrow for their children?

Why do I get the feeling that the six kids being marched to the neighbors' house to apologize is more similar to "teaching a lesson" to children who've been naughty than anything else? If the child in question has problems, surely you leave the children at home and explain as carefully as you can? Marching all the children over seems to me like when a child does something like shoplifting and you march them to the shop to apologize to the store owner and the lesson gets ingrained and the child doesn't do that again! Taking all the children feels like it's intended to be a lesson to every one of the children, and at the same time present a happy families image to the neighbor, so the neighbor reports feeling a disturbing dichotomy of what appears to be a loving family but what just happened last night? How to make sense of these two conflicting views of this family?

The child in the abuse report had bruises on her front and back from being beaten while being bent over the side of a bath. Even aside from the report that the child claimed to have been forced into cold baths and head held under water, those bruises show that it wasn't just a single spank on the behind with an open hand, and the child said that the woman's hand was in a fist, the evidence says it was an actual beating?
 
Interestingly that the three missing children are also the ones involved in the abuse investigation by CPS.

Co-incidence?? I think not.

MOO.

Do you think they might have been left in the woods on the journey out of there? I want to believe they've been living off berries and walking in circles and will find a road and be rescued.

I also fear that maybe they didn't make it to the crash with the others because harm had already come to them, and that that made the ending more inevitable because there was no turning back now as half the job had already been done.

I want to believe this was an accident, but I am getting more of a sense of family annihilation. I want at least three of the kids to have been saved from the annihilation or the tragedy, whichever it was.
 
More bizarre details coming out about the kids in crisis reaching out to the DeKalbs in this couple hour old WaPo article (BBM below):





https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...me-life-neighbors-say/?utm_term=.4112217878c5

Now that is *really* stunning. Why would Devonte ask the DeKalbs THAT particular question?

That is hugely, hugely worrisome, IMO.

What were the kids being told about CPS? Because I think that there was some kind of recent conversation about CPS to prompt that kind of comment by Devonte. The last situation involving CPS was in MN, and was remote at that point-- about 6-7 years prior.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...me-life-neighbors-say/?utm_term=.4112217878c5

In that quote it says Devonte asked the Dekalbs for six packs of tortillas, a case of peanut butter, cured meats, and apples.

That sounds like a child trying to gather supplies to feed six children a fairly basic meal each. And he wanted apples...so I don't think this has to do with being fed nothing but organic fruit and veg and being denied candy at home.
 
I am thinking about their finances. $80,000 per year for 8 people seems lean. I don't know the $80k is a fact. Its a number that has been suggested here.
 
Math and physics challenge for any interested.

Something is bothering me about the report that the speedometer was pegged at 90 mph. The physics of the SUV's final resting position are puzzling, when I think about weight, drop, and speed.

I'm going to work on the math a bit more, but wanted to post here to see if others might crowd source the physics problem solving. Clearly we know where the car ended up-- but the 90 mph info released last night doesn't seem to fit that scenario at first glance.

One part of the puzzle I don't know offhand-- is the trajectory from the highway perfectly in line with where the SUV went over the cliff? Or is it perpendicular to some degree to the usual line of travel southbound on that highway?

SUV average weight = 5400 lbs

5 people inside/ average weight 170 lbs X 5 = 850 lbs

Total weight of vehicle and 5 occupants = approx 6250 lbs

100 foot cliff vertical

Turnout is about 75 feet from road to end of tire tracks per police reports

Questions:

1. Is it even possible for an SUV to get up to 90 mph inside of 100 feet unless it was travelling on the road at 90 mph? Seems not. It was an older vehicle, and heavy with people.

2.It seems logical that the SUV should have followed an "arc" more at that weight, speed, and drop, and landed in the water-- not upside down on the rocks, very close to the cliff face. The resting place seems like it fell and rolled at least once. But the engine compartment is very heavy, and the weight is unevenly distributed, so perhaps it tumbled right away?

Appreciate anyone else's input. I'm going to model this a bit more as I think on it. (Maybe Cynic will drop by?!)

I can't do stuff like that with math, but looking at the place where the vehicle was pulled up the edge looks like one wheel starts to go down and an angle compared to the other and that causes the car to flip over? I was surprised if the car was traveling at speed that it didn't catapult further over the cliff wall, but maybe if it went over in a wonky angle the energy that otherwise would have given horizontal distance just went into a harder flipping and the people inside the vehicle would have been thrown around a lot.

I hope that if the kids had any awareness before the zooming off the cliff that they at least hit their head hard and fast so that they were not aware by the time the car reached the bottom.

I'm thinking maybe the long traveling distance from home goes with a passive aggressive mind...get in the car! We're going driving and we're going to ge away from here! (where are we going and why aren't we taking our things?) Don't ask questions! Do as you're told! Very high tension in the vehicle, there could have been attempts to say "we'll drive to Cali, we'll be free there, maybe we'll carry on to Mexico to be even freer (from US authoritarianism(perceived))" But at any time during that ride something could snap, and at this point she's driving fast and erratically, a sense that the speed is too high for the road, "I'm scared" ..."I'll give you something to be scared about!" and drive straight off the cliff.

I don't think anyone in the vehicle would truly have believed this was a camping trip with no tent or changes of clothing and the animals left home alone. The kids could have been crying (what about my pets at home?). They could have sensed an impending threat but not known what to do about it. If the other three kids were abandoned further back, and it might have been explained to the others as "we'll go back for them", they might have said, "when are we turning back for our sisters and brother?".

Did they undo their own seatbelts and think of opening a door and getting out themselves if the car slowed down? Could that be how the door came off the car, could it have already been open in preparation for that and that's what caused the speed to go even faster and the driver to respond "you're definitely *not* getting out of this vehicle and I'm going to make sure of that"?
 
Spellbound, there’s something wrong there, Time made a booboo.

That is not the Juan Creek location, that is another car from two days ago that went over a cliff in Pacifica, south of SF.
They have different, sandy cliffs, not rocky, and big sandy beaches.

You can see photos here.

18-year-old woman’s vehicle plunges 300 feet off cliff near Pacifica

Thank you. I thought I was going crazy in thinking the crash site didn't match up with the earlier pictures. That explains it.

The video is still incorrect, I just watched it. Hope they rectify the situation soon.
 
Spellbound, there’s something wrong there, Time made a booboo.

That is not the Juan Creek location, that is another car from two days ago that went over a cliff in Pacifica, south of SF.
They have different, sandy cliffs, not rocky, and big sandy beaches.

You can see photos here.

18-year-old woman’s vehicle plunges 300 feet off cliff near Pacifica

Egads! I’m sorry. But that explains why it looks so much dryer. I thought the tide must have backed away long enough to get the car out.

the video still isn't right; they have bits from both of these accidents mixed together. It is deceiving.
 
With a known mass of the vehicle and the speed it was going, along with the distance it traveled, would they be able to work out if there were five passengers or eight passengers in the vehicle?
 
I don't see any photos of the home?

Jen Hart - YouTube

They were above reproach as a loving, diverse LGBTQ family who promoted peace and love and resistance. Etc.

It's just like how families like the Duggars were viewed as super religious and thus incredibly moral and to be looked up to. People who identify with them religiously and politically could not believe anything bad was going on in their home. People still defend them passionately and make all sorts of excuses for their behavior.

I bet it's the flip side here. Super liberal people would view them as heroic and it would be hard to get past that veneer and admit that anything could be wrong. Because "they believe like me and live even better than I do".

I think I even saw a bit of that in one post here. Sort of like well all my friends know them and say they're great so I don't think I can have an opinion here, kind of thing.

I'm a pretty hardcore liberal myself so I understand a little. But I'm also a skeptic and the facts reported so far are what impress me- not who these people were and/or pretended to be.



Echoes of the Turpins. Very sweet, loving, smiling kids who weren't really allowed to communicate with others. Children of narcissists often become super sweet and loving people pleasers who are highly sensitive, especially to the needs and feelings of others.

To outsiders, your dad is a larger-than-life social magnet who attracts people from all walks of life. Or your mom is the perfect woman, always looking to please and juggling everything with ease.
But behind closed doors, all pretense falls away. Only you, their child, knows what it’s like to endure their cold shoulders for days on end over a minor infraction, or bear the brunt of constant, age-inappropriate demands for perfection and strength. You know what it’s like to be parented by a narcissist.
https://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/us_5616b091e4b0082030a18f72

Being raised by a narcissist gives rise to a belief throughout our lives that we are just not “good enough” despite everything we try and bending over backwards to please others.

And it damages your boundaries, which are the invisible barriers between you and your outside systems that regulate the flow of information and input between you and these systems.

• Very attuned (to an almost uncanny degree) to what everyone around them is feeling, because they have a hyper-sensitivity to what others are experiencing (they had to have this in order to survive being raised by a narcissist). This can lead to their inability to protect themselves from others' emotions.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/kathyc...mages-your-life-and-self-esteem/#1874892b2c67

I'm an extreme left wing democratic socialist. I think I qualify as super liberal. I see nothing heroic about them. I find them to be totally repulsive, even before this. I was not impressed when I saw them drag the kid up there to hug the cop four years ago. I find the entire idea of someone adopting kids to make some type of political statement, to be disgusting.
 
Let us say it was an accident. Where were they going so far away with no suitcases? Leaving pets behind?

If they did not want to pay for a motel room, did they have tents or sleeping bags?
 
I’m going to just toss this into the mix as a possibility. In 2009 there was a fiery crash in Santee (San Diego) of a Lexus carrying a family. They all died. The driver was an off duty CHP officer in a car borrowed from a dealer while his was being repaired. The accelerator stuck, the brakes malfunctioned and they reached speeds of 120 before crashing through a barrier at the intersection of hiway 125 and Mission Gorge Rd. I’ve driven this road and know the intersection well because we used to winter in Santee in our RV. It was awful seeing the charred barrier before they finally replaced it. I can’t begin to listen to the 911 call they made from the car. It must have been horrifying. Our Toyota Avalon got caught up in all the Toyota recalls as a result.

Is it possible that something similar happened in the Hart’s case? I guess the black box will tell the story. But knowing that horrible things like this can happen, I’m backing off from thinking it was deliberate for now. Certainly the Hart women had issues and appeared to be fleeing, so it could have been deliberate. But it could also have been a horrible coincidental accident on a road trip they took to sort out what to do.

http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com...d-all-he-could-avoid-2009oct18-htmlstory.html

http://www.cbs8.com/story/11226863/toyota-to-recall-38m-cars-after-deadly-santee-crash

https://www.autoblog.com/2009/12/10/toyota-tragedy-saylor-family/
 
Bill Gates did not have a computer growing up.

Without the electronics, kids can be creative.

I must say I have been astounded by the incredible poise and intelligence from the Parkland teens and other kids that have spoken, some as young as 11.

The electronics have not hurt them at all. I have been surprised as I have been more of one who thinks it is not good.


Bill Gates? He may not have owned one, because he was born in 55, and personal computers came out later. But according to wiki, he was in a computer club and began programming at age 13:

But here is from wiki:

At 13, he enrolled in the Lakeside School, a private preparatory school.[25] When he was in the eighth grade, the Mothers' Club at the school used proceeds from Lakeside School's rummage sale to buy a Teletype Model 33 ASR terminal and a block of computer time on a General Electric (GE) computer for the school's students.[26] Gates took an interest in programming the GE system in BASIC, and was excused from math classes to pursue his interest. He wrote his first computer program on this machine: an implementation of tic-tac-toe that allowed users to play games against the computer. Gates was fascinated by the machine and how it would always execute software code perfectly. When he reflected back on that moment, he said, "There was just something neat about the machine."[27] After the Mothers Club donation was exhausted, he and other students sought time on systems including DEC PDP minicomputers.



As for these teens, I wish they had the same opportunities.

What kind of jobs are these kids going to apply for, if they are not familiar with technology, computers and cell phones?

How is construction paper , markers and crayons going to help 'educate' a 16 yr old or a 19 yr old?

Do you really think teenagers should be kept away from other kids, school activities, computers, televisions, cell phones and kept inside all day?

What did they do inside that house? Surely they were bored with art supplies and musical instruments if that is all they had?

Hearing this description of their lives makes me very sad. They were totally isolated form other kids, and from communicating with the outside world, independently.
 
The free hugs sign he wears at other events is disgusting.

What is that all about? Why post a movie with a boy in underwear?

Bizarre especially in this day and age.
 
I’m going to just toss this into the mix as a possibility. In 2009 there was a fiery crash in Santee (San Diego) of a Lexus carrying a family. They all died. The driver was an off duty CHP officer in a car borrowed from a dealer while his was being repaired. The accelerator stuck, the brakes malfunctioned and they reached speeds of 120 before crashing through a barrier at the intersection of hiway 125 and Mission Gorge Rd. I’ve driven this road and know the intersection well because we used to winter in Santee in our RV. It was awful seeing the charred barrier before they finally replaced it. I can’t begin to listen to the 911 call they made from the car. It must have been horrifying. Our Toyota Avalon got caught up in all the Toyota recalls as a result.

Is it possible that something similar happened in the Hart’s case? I guess the black box will tell the story. But knowing that horrible things like this can happen, I’m backing off from thinking it was deliberate for now. Certainly the Hart women had issues and appeared to be fleeing, so it could have been deliberate. But it could also have been a horrible coincidental accident on a road trip they took to sort out what to do.

http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com...d-all-he-could-avoid-2009oct18-htmlstory.html

http://www.cbs8.com/story/11226863/toyota-to-recall-38m-cars-after-deadly-santee-crash

https://www.autoblog.com/2009/12/10/toyota-tragedy-saylor-family/


But if her accelerator was stuck, and she wanted to stop the car, why turn right towards the deadly cliffs?

And why not call 911 from the cell and get help?


Edit to add:

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.703...4!1sC_JwKLSfbkOSvN7t-mj0ag!2e0!7i16384!8i8192


On this google drive, you can see, right before the turn out, the left side of the road has a bunch of low shrubbery and a ditch, relatively flat for yards and yards.

So if my accelerator was stuck, I'd turn left, and go into the ditch, not right, and go towards the cliffs over the rocky ocean floor.
 
http://www.crimeonline.com/2018/03/...lunge-that-may-have-killed-the-entire-family/

More insights into their home life from Nancy Grace

The home does not look like a home where 6 kids grew up. It was obsessively clean.

http://www.crimeonline.com/2018/03/...d-bath-because-she-had-a-penny-in-her-pocket/


If Jen responded so harshly to such a little thing, like finding a penny in a pocket, the kids must have been trained to behave, without question, and act like circus performers.

I never really understood the 'penny in the pocket' thing. Why would she be angry about her kid having a penny ?
 
Interesting info on the “Black Box” (EDR)


https://www.consumerreports.org/cro/magazine/2014/09/how-your-car-is-tracking-you/index.htm
[h=2]What’s in the box?[/h][FONT=&quot]
EDRs are already used in 96 percent of new cars “to provide critical crash data that might not otherwise be available,” the NHTSA says. Contrary to what many people think, an EDR doesn’t transmit a constant flow of data from the car. According to the agency, it’s an electronic memory chip that records a continuous loop of information flowing from the car’s sensors and control modules. When a crash occurs, the EDR captures about 5 seconds of data before the event and less than 1 second after it. That includes how fast the car was moving, whether the brakes were applied, the timing of air-bag deployment, and safety-belt use. The data can be accessed only by connecting a special reader to the car.



[/FONT]
 
Bill Gates? He may not have owned one, because he was born in 55, and personal computers came out later. But according to wiki, he was in a computer club and began programming at age 13:

But here is from wiki:

At 13, he enrolled in the Lakeside School, a private preparatory school.[25] When he was in the eighth grade, the Mothers' Club at the school used proceeds from Lakeside School's rummage sale to buy a Teletype Model 33 ASR terminal and a block of computer time on a General Electric (GE) computer for the school's students.[26] Gates took an interest in programming the GE system in BASIC, and was excused from math classes to pursue his interest. He wrote his first computer program on this machine: an implementation of tic-tac-toe that allowed users to play games against the computer. Gates was fascinated by the machine and how it would always execute software code perfectly. When he reflected back on that moment, he said, "There was just something neat about the machine."[27] After the Mothers Club donation was exhausted, he and other students sought time on systems including DEC PDP minicomputers.



As for these teens, I wish they had the same opportunities.

What kind of jobs are these kids going to apply for, if they are not familiar with technology, computers and cell phones?

How is construction paper , markers and crayons going to help 'educate' a 16 yr old or a 19 yr old?

Do you really think teenagers should be kept away from other kids, school activities, computers, televisions, cell phones and kept inside all day?

What did they do inside that house? Surely they were bored with art supplies and musical instruments if that is all they had?

Hearing this description of their lives makes me very sad. They were totally isolated form other kids, and from communicating with the outside world, independently.

I have met people here on vacafion from Silicone Valley. They tell me that people from there send their kids to Waldorf schools and totally limit electronics.

I meet people from all over the world and when we talk kids and issues, they guve the universal two thumbs as if they are moving on an electronic device. Parents around the world despair about electronics. Yet, we all supply kids with them.

Kids pick up electronics super quick.

I am not a fan of homeschooling or isolating children.

With the needs the kids have, I cannot believe having them 24-7 with no break for adult time is sustainable.

I bet they got static from anti gay people as well as the black community who does not look kindly upon whites adopting children who are not white.

Did they ever get adult time? Did they get counseling on raising children with trauma?

Doesn’t Bill Gates talk about screen time and kids? I have to look that up.
 
But if her accelerator was stuck, and she wanted to stop the car, why turn right towards the deadly cliffs?

And why not call 911 from the cell and get help?

It’s possible it happened as she pulled into the turnout, maybe hoping to slow it down. No time to call 911. The same car I mentioned above had been driven the day before by another customer who experience something similar, but was able to get over to the shoulder and get it stopped. The floor mat was stuck under the accelerator. He reported it and nothing was done, so this family died.

These women seemed off enough to do something deliberate, but I just think it’s good to consider a malfunction. The 2003 Yukon does have a brake recall. Nothing for accelerators though.

https://www.cars.com/recalls/gmc-yukon-2003/
 
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