CA - Joey, Summer, Gianni, Joseph Jr McStay Murders - Feb 4th 2010 #19

[Mony Mony]

Exactly.

A reasonable juror needs to make the obvious and logical inferences here. For me it is critical that the forensic accountant offered no explanation for deleting / backdating.

I cannot take seriously wild speculation about new approaches to Joeys accounting systems vs a multi year course of dealing when he never deleted his cheques and never wrote them from custom.

It's simply too suspicious.

I am not even sure a reasonable and believable explanation has been presented by any of our WS posters. IMO.
I just don't think the defense will be able to overcome that evidence. IMO

 

[mrjitty]

I am not even sure a reasonable and believable explanation has been presented by any of our WS posters. IMO.
I just don't think the defense will be able to overcome that evidence. IMO

The position always was that Forensic dude was going to be the man to explain it. But in fact he never did which is what sealed the deal for me. At best he sought to speculate that companies of EIP's type allow contractors to fill out pre-signed cheques to vendors. Of course this was wild speculation and struck down by the Judge and was also obvious nonsense in that they don't allow people to fill out cheques to themselves!

The problem also is that this would not explain the deleting or the backdating.

If I understood the poster J Marsh's attempt to explain it (the only comprehensive attempt I have seen), the idea was that Joey and Chase wanted to ledger various expenses in custom, but not capture the payments to Chase. So those payments are deleted (also MSM). Presumably Joey would then manually create these cheques in his other contact Quickbooks account like normal.

The problem with this idea is it flies in the face of a multi-year course of dealing, and forensic man didn't even attempt to make this analysis in Court. Presumably because it is too far fetched.

So yeah, the defence simply has no explanation for the backdating and deleting except for some preposterous comments by Chase in his interviews about hiding things from variously DK or Summer.

So when this domino goes down - the entire defence case collapses IMO

 

[SuziQ]

It's amazing that CM committed these crimes and got such light sentences, I've NEVER seen anything like it. From the article Chase Merritt Trial In Horrific McStay Family Murder Case Begins | SBCSentinel

No record of Merritt’s juvenile convictions, if any, was available to the Sentinel.
All of the crimes contained in Merritt’s available criminal jacket pertain to ones committed by him after he had reached the age of majority.
On February 4, 1977, he was convicted of burglary, for which he served a 66 day jail sentence.
On July 28, 1977, he was convicted of petty theft, for which he was given a 60 day sentence.
On October 24, 1978, he was convicted of criminal trespass, and given a 30 day sentence.
On November 18, 1978, he was convicted of burglary and sentenced to two years in state prison.
On April 16, 1985, he was convicted of receiving stolen property. He was sentenced to 365 days in county jail as a consequence.
On February 4, 1987, he was convicted of receiving stolen property, which netted him 16 months in state prison.
On May 21, 1988, he was convicted of receiving stolen property. He spent 14 days in prison as a result.
On June 17, 1988, he was convicted of a parole violation but was not incarcerated.
On April 2, 2001, he was convicted of burglary and grand theft. He was sentenced to 180 days in jail.
On at least 11 occasions, he failed to appear in court as scheduled. In seven of those cases, warrants were issued for his arrest. At the time of the McStay family murders, he was wanted on a probation violation warrant.

What an upstanding citizen he is.

 

[Blondiexoxo]

Long time lurker on this case I just can’t believe how ridiculously long it has dragged on for. It’s been an insult to the McStay family that the defence has been able to play this game of trying to confuse the jury imo, they will almost certainly need recapping of the prosecution testimony that happened months ago now, when they finally do deliberate.

It worries me that even if CM. is convicted he will likely appeal on grounds of ineffective counsel.

This trial has been almost impossible to follow from England, the McStays deserved justice served swiftly not this many hold ups and confusion. I hope the jury see CM for what the evidence shows he is; guilty of murder. But I’m concerned if he gets the DP his appeals will be lengthy and may even get a retrial in years to come. MOO

 

[oceanblueeyes]

RSBM

Yes - and its critical IMO because of the cascading nature of the process of inference.

IMO the conclusion that the deleted Paul Mitchell cheque on the 5th was fraudulent is inevitable, because the defence have not produced any credible evidence to the contrary. Therefore the natural and obvious inference must stand.

If I were a Judge sitting on the case, this would be the central starting point of my inquiry.

My second conclusion, which must follow, is that the backdating was part of the fraud. Otherwise why do it.

But who could the backdating deceive? Certainly not Joey.

And here is where the difference between the first 2 deleted cheques is critical. The first deleted cheque was not backdated. The rest all were.

So what changed? Well Joey went dark on the 4th.

So it's clear the deception is now intended to defeat not Joey but 3rd parties and/or law enforcement.

These key findings colour everything else. e.g when looking at the calls to Quickbooks, we must examine them in light of our cheque fraud finding.

Ditto when examining the deleted Paul Mitchell cheque of the 4th

etc etc

my .02 pence of the queens currency

Great summation, Mrjitty!

Imo, the DTs failure to address this evidence head on only makes the white elephant in the room loom even larger.

By now the jury is probably bringing food to feed the elephant that has entered the courtroom early on refusing to go away! Lol JK!

Imo

 

[mrjitty]

Great summation, Mrjitty!

Imo, the DTs failure to address this evidence head on only makes the white elephant in the room loom even larger.

By now the jury is probably bringing food to feed the elephant that has entered the courtroom early on refusing to go away! Lol JK!

Imo

The defence always want us down in the weeds speculating over tiny points, instead of starting in the middle of the case.

In the pistorius trial I argued any analysis must start with what Pistorius was thinking and doing in the moment he pulled the trigger. And seeing his evidence was fall of fabrication and inconsistency, I believed his testimony belonged in the bin.

Ultimately the Supreme Court agreed. What was provided was an inherently implausible and unlikely story.

If we start at the centre of this case, with the facts as established on the morning of 5 February we discover the same thing.

The problem then becomes that many of the other facts of the case support guilt, but do not eliminate Chase.

So the jigsaw fits.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

It's amazing that CM committed these crimes and got such light sentences, I've NEVER seen anything like it. From the article Chase Merritt Trial In Horrific McStay Family Murder Case Begins | SBCSentinel

No record of Merritt’s juvenile convictions, if any, was available to the Sentinel.
All of the crimes contained in Merritt’s available criminal jacket pertain to ones committed by him after he had reached the age of majority.
On February 4, 1977, he was convicted of burglary, for which he served a 66 day jail sentence.
On July 28, 1977, he was convicted of petty theft, for which he was given a 60 day sentence.
On October 24, 1978, he was convicted of criminal trespass, and given a 30 day sentence.
On November 18, 1978, he was convicted of burglary and sentenced to two years in state prison.
On April 16, 1985, he was convicted of receiving stolen property. He was sentenced to 365 days in county jail as a consequence.
On February 4, 1987, he was convicted of receiving stolen property, which netted him 16 months in state prison.
On May 21, 1988, he was convicted of receiving stolen property. He spent 14 days in prison as a result.
On June 17, 1988, he was convicted of a parole violation but was not incarcerated.
On April 2, 2001, he was convicted of burglary and grand theft. He was sentenced to 180 days in jail.
On at least 11 occasions, he failed to appear in court as scheduled. In seven of those cases, warrants were issued for his arrest. At the time of the McStay family murders, he was wanted on a probation violation warrant.

Thank you for laying it all out for us. It truly is amazing the light sentences he received especially being a habitual repeat offender. He's repeated failure to appear shows he had no respect for the rule of law.

The long rap sheets doesn't surprise me. All of his crimes shows he had no qualms in victimizing others for his own personal financial gain/greed. It's a long consistent pattern he continued.

It's very common for murderers to have a criminal history of some sort.

Just like some start off being a peeping Tom, then advance to entering homes to rape victims, and then advance to not only brutally raping the victims, but to murder the victims as well.

However, many who have committed very heinous murders have had no criminal past whatsoever, not even a traffic ticket.

It shows one does not have to have a violent criminal history to do the most brutal murders imaginable.

But CMs victimization crimes are quite common for murderers like CM who then escalate to the ultimate most violent acts of heinous homicides.

His criminal history shows his entire universe was consumed with greed, and he would do anything, even victimizing so many ...to get the what he wants.

He didn't care if he had to steal or sell stolen property to get what he wanted. Even CJ says he cared about nothing or anyone else, and even his criminal past proves that to be true, imo

Anyone so consumed with such financial greed is perfectly capable of elevating their crimes to quadruple homicide.

When CM realized he was being cut out of all of the big money making ventures, and more was coming to Joey's business, he then was determined to completely eradicate Joey, and his entire family.

CM is a sociopath, imo. With CMs full blown narrcistic mentality he made sure if he wasnt going to enjoy any of the profits to come, then neither would Joey nor anyone in Joey's family.

Imo, CM knew Joey was the life blood of EIP. He knew if he murdered the Joey McStay family the company would collapse without Joey... along with all the bright promising future it had before he murdered Joey.

Murderers like CM often are petty in the extreme grudges or hatred they possess against others.

They dont mind banishing anyone who doesn't put the sociopath always in the best light. BUT they detest it when others take control of their own lives, and decide they no longer will tolerate the abuse of the sociopath.

Imo, Sociopaths like CM must always be in full control, and when they know they have lost that control, and are no longer able to manipulate, they will then seethe with hatred, rage, revenge, and petty resentment, and it can result in murderous results just like CM did against this family of 4 who he murdered.

JMOO though..

 

[Mony Mony]

Is there court today? Half day? This is ridiculous. IMO

 

[wary]

Is there court today? Half day? This is ridiculous. IMO

No court at all, I believe. But....tomorrow it should start— hoping McGee is tanned, rested, and ready!

 

[la2cabo]

Is there court today? Half day? This is ridiculous. IMO

No court today. There will be proceedings tomorrow at 9:30 but a juror has to leave early so I'm sure it will be over by their noon recess. I think there will be full days Wednesday and Thursday but don't hold me to it. Lol

 

[ilovewings]

Thank you for laying it all out for us. It truly is amazing the light sentences he received especially being a habitual repeat offender. He's repeated failure to appear shows he had no respect for the rule of law.

The long rap sheets doesn't surprise me. All of his crimes shows he had no qualms in victimizing others for his own personal financial gain/greed. It's a long consistent pattern he continued.

It's very common for murderers to have a criminal history of some sort.

Just like some start off being a peeping Tom, then advance to entering homes to rape victims, and then advance to not only brutally raping the victims, but to murder the victims as well.

However, many who have committed very heinous murders have had no criminal past whatsoever, not even a traffic ticket.

It shows one does not have to have a violent criminal history to do the most brutal murders imaginable.

But CMs victimization crimes are quite common for murderers like CM who then escalate to the ultimate most violent acts of heinous homicides.

His criminal history shows his entire universe was consumed with greed, and he would do anything, even victimizing so many ...to get the what he wants.

He didn't care if he had to steal or sell stolen property to get what he wanted. Even CJ says he cared about nothing or anyone else, and even his criminal past proves that to be true, imo

Anyone so consumed with such financial greed is perfectly capable of elevating their crimes to quadruple homicide.

When CM realized he was being cut out of all of the big money making ventures, and more was coming to Joey's business, he then was determined to completely eradicate Joey, and his entire family.

CM is a sociopath, imo. With CMs full blown narrcistic mentality he made sure if he wasnt going to enjoy any of the profits to come, then neither would Joey nor anyone in Joey's family.

Imo, CM knew Joey was the life blood of EIP. He knew if he murdered the Joey McStay family the company would collapse without Joey... along with all the bright promising future it had before he murdered Joey.

Murderers like CM often are petty in the extreme grudges or hatred they possess against others.

They dont mind banishing anyone who doesn't put the sociopath always in the best light. BUT they detest it when others take control of their own lives, and decide they no longer will tolerate the abuse of the sociopath.

Imo, Sociopaths like CM must always be in full control, and when they know they have lost that control, and are no longer able to manipulate, they will then seethe with hatred, rage, revenge, and petty resentment, and it can result in murderous results just like CM did against this family of 4 who he murdered.

JMOO though..

Another notable trait about sociopaths is, they believe they are smarter than everybody else so they never think they will get caught. In this case there was a
stupid police force so that certainly could have happened, and almost did.

 

[katydid23]

When someone has a long criminal history, which includes burglary and fraud, it quite often ends up in violent criminal charges. It happens because they create the volatile situations themselves, which can force them to be aggressive and physical, to escape from capture or arrest for their crimes.

CM crossed mine and went too far by creating and cashing those fraudulent checks. He was forced to get rid of the witnesses.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Another notable trait about sociopaths is, they believe they are smarter than everybody else so they never think they will get caught. In this case there was a
stupid police force so that certainly could have happened, and almost did.

Most definitely!

You are right he almost got away with it. I'm sure he thought he had.

He was so sure that he threw the murder weapon in the graves along with other items that came from the McStay home.

In the end, it's like you've said.. it shows sociopaths are never as smart as they think they are.

Jmo

 

[oceanblueeyes]

So Rudin is on deck tomorrow? Then what? Is that it for the DTs CIC or do they have more witnesses? Gee, I hope not.

The way they call witnesses every now, and then, it will take the DT until Thanksgiving before they finally rest.

IMO

 

[citygirl]

Thank you for laying it all out for us. It truly is amazing the light sentences he received especially being a habitual repeat offender. He's repeated failure to appear shows he had no respect for the rule of law.

The long rap sheets doesn't surprise me. All of his crimes shows he had no qualms in victimizing others for his own personal financial gain/greed. It's a long consistent pattern he continued.

It's very common for murderers to have a criminal history of some sort.

Just like some start off being a peeping Tom, then advance to entering homes to rape victims, and then advance to not only brutally raping the victims, but to murder the victims as well.

However, many who have committed very heinous murders have had no criminal past whatsoever, not even a traffic ticket.

It shows one does not have to have a violent criminal history to do the most brutal murders imaginable.

But CMs victimization crimes are quite common for murderers like CM who then escalate to the ultimate most violent acts of heinous homicides.

His criminal history shows his entire universe was consumed with greed, and he would do anything, even victimizing so many ...to get the what he wants.

He didn't care if he had to steal or sell stolen property to get what he wanted. Even CJ says he cared about nothing or anyone else, and even his criminal past proves that to be true, imo

Anyone so consumed with such financial greed is perfectly capable of elevating their crimes to quadruple homicide.

When CM realized he was being cut out of all of the big money making ventures, and more was coming to Joey's business, he then was determined to completely eradicate Joey, and his entire family.

CM is a sociopath, imo. With CMs full blown narrcistic mentality he made sure if he wasnt going to enjoy any of the profits to come, then neither would Joey nor anyone in Joey's family.

Imo, CM knew Joey was the life blood of EIP. He knew if he murdered the Joey McStay family the company would collapse without Joey... along with all the bright promising future it had before he murdered Joey.

Murderers like CM often are petty in the extreme grudges or hatred they possess against others.

They dont mind banishing anyone who doesn't put the sociopath always in the best light. BUT they detest it when others take control of their own lives, and decide they no longer will tolerate the abuse of the sociopath.

Imo, Sociopaths like CM must always be in full control, and when they know they have lost that control, and are no longer able to manipulate, they will then seethe with hatred, rage, revenge, and petty resentment, and it can result in murderous results just like CM did against this family of 4 who he murdered.

JMOO though..

Did you follow the Petit murders in Connecticut?
Another awful case.
AFAIK, neither one of the perps had ever done anything so heinous. One was a peeping Tom who progressed to entering people's houses and loving they were unaware of his presence.The other was a thief. Their intent was robbery. Segued into a nightmare. Father was beaten senseless and wife and 2 daughters were murdered.

 

[katydid23]

Did you follow the Petit murders in Connecticut?
Another awful case.
AFAIK, neither one of the perps had ever done anything so heinous. One was a peeping Tom who progressed to entering people's houses and loving they were unaware of his presence.The other was a thief. Their intent was robbery. Segued into a nightmare. Father was beaten senseless and wife and 2 daughters were murdered.

Same thing with the convicted quadruple murderer, Daron Wint, who killed the Savopoulos Family in DC. He did a home invasion, brutally tortured and killed a family, including a young boy, and he had no previous convictions for violence.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Did you follow the Petit murders in Connecticut?
Another awful case.
AFAIK, neither one of the perps had ever done anything so heinous. One was a peeping Tom who progressed to entering people's houses and loving they were unaware of his presence.The other was a thief. Their intent was robbery. Segued into a nightmare. Father was beaten senseless and wife and 2 daughters were murdered.

Yes, I did, CG.

That was also another heartbreaking case. Just horrible for Dr. Petit, and his precious family.

It's a miracle DP is alive. They sure meant to murder him as well, and burn their home down with all of them inside.

Imo

 

[la2cabo]

It's really frightening to think about those who live among us. We never know what a person is capable of or what might float their boat.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Same thing with the convicted quadruple murderer, Daron Wint, who killed the Savopoulos Family in DC. He did a home invasion, brutally tortured and killed a family, including a young boy, and he had no previous convictions for violence.

Another horrific case, Katy.

I will always remember little Philip, and how DW tortured him, and then doused gasoline on his body setting him on fire.

It shows so clearly a violent criminal history is not needed for so many monsters who have killed so many victims in gruesome barbaric ways.

Imo

 

[smr]

Thank you for laying it all out for us. It truly is amazing the light sentences he received especially being a habitual repeat offender. He's repeated failure to appear shows he had no respect for the rule of law.

The long rap sheets doesn't surprise me. All of his crimes shows he had no qualms in victimizing others for his own personal financial gain/greed. It's a long consistent pattern he continued.

It's very common for murderers to have a criminal history of some sort.

Just like some start off being a peeping Tom, then advance to entering homes to rape victims, and then advance to not only brutally raping the victims, but to murder the victims as well.

However, many who have committed very heinous murders have had no criminal past whatsoever, not even a traffic ticket.

It shows one does not have to have a violent criminal history to do the most brutal murders imaginable.

But CMs victimization crimes are quite common for murderers like CM who then escalate to the ultimate most violent acts of heinous homicides.

His criminal history shows his entire universe was consumed with greed, and he would do anything, even victimizing so many ...to get the what he wants.

He didn't care if he had to steal or sell stolen property to get what he wanted. Even CJ says he cared about nothing or anyone else, and even his criminal past proves that to be true, imo

Anyone so consumed with such financial greed is perfectly capable of elevating their crimes to quadruple homicide.

When CM realized he was being cut out of all of the big money making ventures, and more was coming to Joey's business, he then was determined to completely eradicate Joey, and his entire family.

CM is a sociopath, imo. With CMs full blown narrcistic mentality he made sure if he wasnt going to enjoy any of the profits to come, then neither would Joey nor anyone in Joey's family.

Imo, CM knew Joey was the life blood of EIP. He knew if he murdered the Joey McStay family the company would collapse without Joey... along with all the bright promising future it had before he murdered Joey.

Murderers like CM often are petty in the extreme grudges or hatred they possess against others.

They dont mind banishing anyone who doesn't put the sociopath always in the best light. BUT they detest it when others take control of their own lives, and decide they no longer will tolerate the abuse of the sociopath.

Imo, Sociopaths like CM must always be in full control, and when they know they have lost that control, and are no longer able to manipulate, they will then seethe with hatred, rage, revenge, and petty resentment, and it can result in murderous results just like CM did against this family of 4 who he murdered.

JMOO though..

BBM, Colored by me.

The blue part comes down to: There is no necessary correlation between past non-murder criminal history--esp. non-violent ones--and whether one committed murder or no.

Hence the brown part is completely moot.