Identified! CA - Laurel Canyon, WhtFem 358UFCA, 20-23, Nov'69 - Reet Jurvetson

[Richard]

Murdered 23 November 1969​

Reet Silvia Jurvetson, Age 19​

BIRTH 23 Sep 1950 Sweden
DEATH 14 Nov 1969 (aged 19) Los Angeles, Los Angeles County, California, USA
BURIAL Cremated

LINK:

Reet Silvia Jurvetson (1950-1969) - Find a Grave...

She was born in Sweden, part of an Estonian refugee family who came to Canada in 1951. It is believed she is Jane Doe 59 and may have been killed by the Manson Family. http://reetjurvetson.com/

www.findagrave.com

 

[beubeubeu]

This is one of the few cases I'll keep coming back to wondering, if taking a "fresh" look at it will cause me to see something more/new in it.

In the mean time I've read somewhere (and I'm not sure if it's accurate) that there were blood stains and dragging marks on the road near where she was found - maybe not obvious enough to alarm anyone earlier, but noticed by investogators as they showed up on the scene. That would explain how they were able to figure out that she was transported in a trunk of a car (that always sounded like a far fetched guess for me, prior to learning that).
I still strongly suspect John-Jeans, cause I don't see why they weren't asking about Reet in Montreal, and why the one met by Reet's friend didn't asked to send her his greetings or something like that - cause if she indeed lived with them for sometime, then left (possibly as planned, to visit her brother) then no reason for John-Jean's to NOT assume that she's back in Montreal.
Her outfit IMO suggested that she was attacked in the evening or while she was getting ready to leave LA.
But if she was still having her legs crossed, like she was sitting on the bed or something like bed prior to attack... that would rule out any stranger, at least complete-stranger.
I click-walked Mullholland Drive from Hollywood to Encino Hills. And the spot where she was dumped looks like it could be the first, relatively secluded, convenient place to drop a body for a person, heading from Hollywood to Encino.

On the other hand it doesn't really make that much sense to assume that one or both John-Jeans are responsible. Theoretically sure, but they were both living in that hostel-like building, full of people and with long corridors.
More likely than not Reet wasn't murdered there cause someone would notice the dragging marks, blood on the stairs and so on, yet nobody did. And if there was blood still near where she was dragged out of the trunk... it means that the perp didn't have a need to wrap her in a blanket or a sheet, anything. There was nothing like that.

So now it's just going to be me sharing my guesses.
This time it looks like:

She got attacked on the night of Friday, November 14th (cause estimated TOD, clothing, 2 hours after her last meal).
And it didn't happen in Hollywood - it could but the circumstances seem to suggest something more secluded, like one of the properties in Laurel Canyon maybe?
She knew the perp well enough to sit calmly in his presence, so not a complete stranger.
Sit where? Maybe on something like bed (im dismissing chairs, armchairs and benches cause of descriptions that murderer likely jumped on her and was sitting on her while stabbing) but if it was bed, it'd be too easy to grab some bloody blanket or a sheet and transport her like that.
So maybe something more like short retaining wall somewhere outside? I'm guessing that Hollywood Hills have no shortage of those.
And not at all far from where she was dumped. Cause bloody body in a trunk.
And her murderer was carrying a pocket knife with him and maybe wasn't physically strong enough to even try strangulation.

Well, simplest explanation would suggest... the John-Jean who wasn't looking like Jim Morrison, cause:
1. he was described as relatively short and small (unlike the other guy)
2. in a conversation with Reet's friend he wasn't able to deliver any specific (or even vague) direction that Reet allegedly went to (he should know where she was planning to go after sharing tiny flat with her for few weeks)
3. he didn't seem to ask her about Reet - and he should expect this girl to possibly know that
4. he said that she was happy but havent explained why was she happy - and why would she be happy?
- cause she had a nice trip? - but that should make him expect her back in Montreal
- cause she was going to visit her brother and travel some more? - but... as above
- cause she decided to stay in LA? - then why not mention that oh, she wanted to work at X and planned to stay in LA but we lost touch cause of Y-reason

The most obvious from the obvious ones would be that her visit caused tension between all the three. Possibly Morrison-like John-Jean was too popular with ladies and wasn't interested in Reet anymore and she showed up there, still in love with him, got immensely disappointed by that outcome but decided to try enjoy the trip anyway, and the second John-Jean figured that since his buddy is not blocking him anymore, he will try his luck with Reet, but she rejected him, he got mad and murdered her.

And that could be a good theory if not for the fact that there were millions of people living in LA at the time and we have absolutely no knowledge of who she met there.

 

[Planet369]

On January 6 1968 Tito Cleofas Carrillo had been stabbed on the chest by Albert Edward Neff. Now, this happened a year before Reet Jurvetson's death. However I want to point out that Tito was stabbed in the same building to the last know location of Reet's 5311 Melrose Ave #306. This particular incident happened in Apartment #404. I tracked down the court documents on this murder, Albert Neff's trial was set on April 1968, and by May 1968 he was charged with involuntary manslaughter and let go on probation. There were a few witnesses to this, looks like Albert's wife and brother were there. Another witness to this case was Jerry Cade who lived at the same apartment of the incident, on the trial Jerry is a witness not a suspect as told in the newspaper. Connections to Reet? I don't know, but worth talking to the people/witnesses involved in this case. Unfortunately Albert died a few years ago, here's the obituary. Also, the court papers don't say if Tito lived in that apartment.

 

[Liisbet]

Closest translation of the postcard (with not making it sound weird in english):

Dear Mommy/Mother* and Father
Weather is nice and people are kind. I have** a nice small apartment. I go to beach often. Please write. Hugs Reet


* Emme would be mommy, Ema would be mother, hers looks something in between or she started to write Emme and changed her mind in the middle. Emme would suggest very warm relationship, usually what small children call their mothers ( I still call my mom that )
** I have – little mistake here, should be Mul not Mull (probably doesnt matter but since i pointed out the other mistake, i thought i would mention this one too )


My observations regarding this postcard (all my opinion only):

+ Using dear and hugs in Estonian shows me that there was a loving relationship between them, otherwise there are other words she would have used which are way more common and more ´cold´.
+ She says that she HAS an apartment, which is either that she rented her own place already or she didnt want to tell her parents who she was living with, but i think they knew that already (with whom she was going to stay when she first got there – so i dont see why she would use this sentence here to ´´lie´´). If she was still living with someone else she would have probably used ´´WE HAVE´´ (Meil on) or, I live (Ma elan) in a nice small apartment.
+ handwriting seems a bit rushed, maybe somewhere in the post Office or on the go. It looks like she wanted to write more but either didnt get any good ideas what to write or maybe someone was waiting for her and she didnt want to keep them waiting.



! Interesting fact: Reet isnt pronounced like in a word greet, her name is actually more like the word – Rent (with no N, and make the e –loong there ) Or read it like you would read spanish

Sorry about my english, its a bit rusty (not my native language)

 

[beubeubeu]

+ She says that she HAS an apartment, which is either that she rented her own place already or she didnt want to tell her parents who she was living with, but i think they knew that already (with whom she was going to stay when she first got there – so i dont see why she would use this sentence here to ´´lie´´). If she was still living with someone else she would have probably used ´´WE HAVE´´ (Meil on) or, I live (Ma elan) in a nice small apartment.

Thank you for your great input. That's very valuable insight.
But it got me wonder.

Do you by know by any chance if back in the day it was more or less normal or even expected from Estonian (adult) kids to pretend in front of their parents that they're absolutely NOT drinking any alcohol ever, not living with bf/gf before marriage etc.?
Cause in my country it absolutely was and still is in more traditional families (parents know, kids know that parents know and that they know that kids know but everyone keeps acting like they have no clue).

Also, considering that Reet's brother lived in US - wouldnt it be kinda obvious that young girl from Canada with no job in US couldn't afford renting even small apartement in LA?
*all that under assumption that she (counting "to be safe": at least a week for her postcard to get delivered to her parents + day or two to write back + another week for the letter to arrive in LA) was planning to stay there for at least three weeks from the day she mailed the postcard).

 

[Liisbet]

Thank you for your great input. That's very valuable insight.
But it got me wonder.

Do you by know by any chance if back in the day it was more or less normal or even expected from Estonian (adult) kids to pretend in front of their parents that they're absolutely NOT drinking any alcohol ever, not living with bf/gf before marriage etc.?
Cause in my country it absolutely was and still is in more traditional families (parents know, kids know that parents know and that they know that kids know but everyone keeps acting like they have no clue).

Also, considering that Reet's brother lived in US - wouldnt it be kinda obvious that young girl from Canada with no job in US couldn't afford renting even small apartement in LA?
*all that under assumption that she (counting "to be safe": at least a week for her postcard to get delivered to her parents + day or two to write back + another week for the letter to arrive in LA) was planning to stay there for at least three weeks from the day she mailed the postcard).

I was also wondering the money part - where did she get the money to rent an apartment in LA? these cant be cheap there, or were they back in a day?
I have no idea about the pretending thing (to parents) back then, i know that religion isnt really a big thing here, maybe it was back then. Marriage was certainly a thing that was expected at least when a girl got pregnant (asked my mother - she said it wasnt something that was expected from others but something they just did cause everybody did it and people thought it was something that you just do ). Drinking alcohol hasnt been a ´bad´ thing here either.
I was thinking that maybe she put that address on the postcard which was her previous address (where the ´Jeans´ lived) but she actually lived in another one already (maybe wasnt sure how long she would stay there and the previous address was a sure thing)... i dont know, that part about where she actually lived when she was in LA is all very confusing to me.

 

[Liisbet]

I have gathered my thoughts on the mentioned suspects, I will post them in clusters, otherwise my post would be a mile long

The suspect:

! has to own a car or has someone really close who (s)he can borrow a car from, and who probably knows what he has done (there would be a lot of blood in the car)

! had to have some knowledge of the area to go that far to dump her (also 2 other options here – wanted to dump earlier but there were motorists/other people around; or was somewhere there already with her driving around/showing some romantic spot up there etc)

Mentioned suspects and my thoughts on them: (+ shows why they are a good suspect , - shows why they aren´t):

Manson family

+ probably have a car
+ no rape
- 150+ stabs (if they are getting rid of a witness it would make more sense to make it quick and not so messy that stabbing would be – they had guns )
- someone of Reets friends in La would have reported her missing or mentioned/asked something to other friends/her family – her things cant just vanish from some apartment (especially when shes sharing it with someone)

Conclusion – for me its a weak suspect circle – why would they hide it (who can link her to them?) and why do it in such a messy way.

A stranger (also serial killers)

+ abduction possibility - since Reet was wearing jacket and ´going out´ clothes then i dont think this act happened at home/indoors + ate 2 hours prior
+ probably has a car
- no rape
- 150+ stabs (if its not sexual then why do it?)
- someone of Reets friends in La would have reported her missing or mentioned/asked something to other friends/her family – her things cant just vanish from some apartment

Conclusion- weak suspect, she wasnt robbed, sexually assaulted, i dont see a stranger going through all this to dump a body there, he would just have left her anywhere – someone didnt want her to be found and identified

Family member(s)

+ no rape
+ 150+ stabs
- why get a PI 10 years later if you did smth to her, wouldnt it be easier to create some story that she left
- or + brother had a car? Didnt find any info of him having one.
- if they were that tight about religion and stuff they would have not let her leave in the first place, it didnt sound like she ran away to la (she was saving money for it and family knew about it), also the postcard – she wouldnt send any if there were problems (and wouldnt add : write me/hugs at the end). They may have been on different opinions about all this (religion, partying, marriage, kids, home life) but i think her family let her do what she wanted with her life already in Canada it seems, also estonians are usually very calm people (theres a joke that we protest on a couch…). Why let her do all that and then go and kill her in another country- doesnt make any sense to me

Conclusion: weak suspect, no motive here

 

[Liisbet]

Mentioned suspects and my thoughts on them: (+ shows why they are a good suspect , - shows why they aren´t):

Jean no 1 (taller one with long hair in 69)

+ didnt contact Reetś family, friends, police to ask about her/tell them she was missing, - something that a worrying friend (or bf) would do for sure. (Possible reasons if hes not the perpertrator – He and Reet actually werent a couple and parted ways soon after she got there, and lost contact so he didnt even know to worry/ someone he knew told him a story and he believed it a la Reet left LA for good, to visit her brother or go back to canada)
+ easily would have made up the story to tell to the other Jean that Reet moved out but actually he killed her and got rid of her things afterwards (or the same time even – let me help you move…)
+ no rape
+ 150+ stabs
+ jealousy/unmatched feelings/breakup rage
+ ´date night´ possibility - since Reet was wearing a jacket and ´going out´ clothes then i dont think this act happened at home/indoors + ate 2 hours prior.
+ the place of the body dump - someone didnt want her to be found and identified – and connections made
+ - noone has mentioned seeing him in Canada after this all happened? Either he didnt want to show his face there again, so noone would ask questions(+), or something happened to him too (-)

? did he have a car?access to it? Do the foreigners have some restrictions of driving in us? Does it make sense for foreigner to get a car in la?
? maybe wasnt a bf at all, she just wanted to get away from home and that was an opportunity (you dont want to stay with your brother who keeps an eye on your every step)

Conclusion: I think he is a good suspect, too many things point to him.


Jean no 2 (shorter one with ´beatles´ haircut in 69)

+ didnt contact Reetś family, friends, police to ask about her/tell them she was missing, - something that a worrying friend (or bf) would do for sure. (Possible reasons if hes not the perpertrator – He and Reet parted ways soon after she got there, and lost contact so he didnt even know to worry/ someone he knew told him a story and he believed it – a la Reet left LA for good, to visit her brother or go back to canada.)
+ went back to Canada and was seen and spoken to there about Reet, possibly covering his act, otherwise why wouldnt he be worried after he was told that she hasnt been heard from? Why didnt he contact anyone in LA to ask about her or offered his help to find her? Did he say when the exact time was when he last saw her in LA?
+- no rape
+ 150+ stabs
+ jealousy/unmatched feelings
+ ´dinner night´ possibility - since Reet was wearing jacket and ´going out´ clothes then i dont think this act happened at home/indoors + ate 2 hours prior
+ the place of the body dump - someone didnt want her to be found and identified – and connections made


? did he have a car?access to it? Do the foreigners have some restrictions of driving in us? Does it make sense for foreigner to get a car in la?

Conclusion: i think he is also a good suspect

2 ´Jeans´ together

+ didnt contact Reetś family, friends, police to ask about her/tell them she was missing, - something that a worrying friend (or bf) would do for sure. (Possible reasons if they are not the perpertrators – They and Reet parted ways soon after she got there, and lost contact so they didnt even know to worry/ someone they knew told them a story and they believed it – a la Reet left LA for good, to visit her brother org o back to canada.)
+ no rape
+ 150+ stabs
+ ´date/dinner night´ possibility - since Reet was wearing jacket and ´going out´ clothes then i dont think this act happened at home/indoors + ate 2 hours prior
+ the place of the body dump - someone didnt want her to be found and identified – and connections made
- Reet was dragged out of the car (if there were 2 people, wouldnt carrying her out of there been faster and less messy?) shows its a one man job
- there were only knife marks on her, if there were multiple attackers, wouldnt there be different kind of assault marks?

? did they have a car?access to it? Do the foreigners have some restrictions of driving in us? Does it make sense for foreigner to get a car in la?

Conclusion: weak suspects, there is no proof of this being a 2 man job

 

[Liisbet]

Some other acquaintance/new bf

+ didnt contact Reetś family, friends, police to ask about her/tell them she was missing, - something that a worrying friend (or bf) would do for sure. (Possible reasons if they are not the perpetrator – they didnt communicate that much so he didnt even know to worry/ someone he knew (also Reet herself) told him a story and he believed it – a la Reet left LA for good, to visit her brother or go back to canada.
+ no rape (more with a case of new bf)
+ the place of the body dump - someone didnt want her to be found and identified – and connections made
+ probably has a car
+ 150+ stabs
+ jealousy/unmatched feelings/breakup rage
+ ´date night´ possibility - since Reet was wearing a jacket and ´going out´ clothes then i dont think this act happened at home/indoors + ate 2 hours prior
- noone Reet knew (Jeans) did report her missing or ask about her whereabouts, if Reet did move out and was happy aso the Jeans would have had a contact with her later on too, since they where the only few people she knew there…

Conclusion: Possible suspect but a bit weaker than ´´Jeans´´

Sorry for the long posts all this is just my opinion ofc. And I do have some questions that maybe someone can answer
? do they remove make-up/clean face post mortem? She doesnt look that she has any on, on the PM photo. So if she was found like this then I dont think it was a date night, looking at her other photos- shes always wearing make-up. I think she would have had it on if it was a date. (so that lessens the possibility she went out with a possible bf. – more with someone she didnt want to impress/it was the actual moving event)

? upright position in the car? Maybe to keep the blood not soaking everywhere, maybe something wrapped around her neck (some clothing item, towel?) to stop the blood going everywhere? Her clothes didnt seem to have that much blood on them either… so when the neck is bleeding how you get no blood on your clothes while sitting up – something around your neck stopping it going everywhere

? did she actually move out/had her own place in LA at all? Wouldnt that be expensive to rent an apartment there? Where would she get the money? Did she have a job? Sugadaddy?

? Around her eyes are quite dark circles. Can it be from a blood loss? Someone hit her? Anorexia? Havent slept?

? no bruises or hit marks on her? – if you want to sexually assault etc the they usually get some hits in as well, if there were only knife marks then it sounds personal and planned.

? do they know what her last meal was? Was it a meal (dinner) or just a slice of an apple (random snack)?

Also some random thoughts:

+ someone got rid of her things. Either she was moving at that exact moment and all her stuff was in that car – that would have been easy to get rid of those suitcases, bags, handbag etc all together. Or she just went and met someone for dinner or whatever, so she would at least have her handbag with her – it wasnt with her so someone didnt want her to be identified!

+ if those glasses that they found somewhere down that hill where she was found and they can possibly be suspects then the only way i see this happening is when the person saw that the body was stuck and went and tried to move it, and the glasses somehow fell off, and he didnt see much afterwards and just crawled up again and left (i had strong - glasses and without them i was pretty much blind, especially in dark)

+ found some missing Jeans from canada (2 of them actually went missing together) , its probably nothing but it wouldnt hurt for those people who actually met the Jeans to go through all the missing Jeans and Johns in Canada, they are the only ones who can identify them…

Canada's Missing | Case details

www.services.rcmp-grc.gc.ca

Canada's Missing | Case details

www.services.rcmp-grc.gc.ca

 

[Richard]

While this is now a "resolved" missing person/jane doe case, it is still an open and unsolved murder cold case.

Another unsolved cold case which might be related is that of the Lompoc Jane Doe found in early August of that same year (1969). She too, was stabbed multiple times and her body left in a remote area not far from Los Angles.

LINK:

CA - CA - Lompoc, WhtFem 16-25, 205UFCA, overbite, horseshoe earrings, Aug'69

Bumping this thread up.

www.websleuths.com