Identified! CA - Laurel Canyon, WhtFem 358UFCA, 20-23, Nov'69 - Reet Jurvetson

[InternetDetective]

This could be, if Reet was one of his victims, it was still at the time when he could not have any preffered method of killing yet but...
He escaped Cali to avoid conviction. Would he go back so fast? Also no idea how much attendance that NY school required and if he could be just not-there in October, but that could happen.

I don't see that happening thou. He was a big guy, and he knew that he has pending conviction in Cali. Would he go for pocket knife stabbing of a tiny girl? Would he bother to dump her body in a spot of another big LA's murder case? Part of it could be accidental, but so many people remembered meeting Alcala after years passed, and none remembered him from LA then. And what about crossing the Canadian border? Wouldn't he found it risky?
I thought that Manson was point of interest for LE cause he for sure was in LA at the time, for sure knew many young women there, and about many things. Even if he or his cult members weren't involved in it, he could still, realistically have some info, or some idea about this crime. Alcala would be a long shot, but it's a shame that he wasn't asked about it. To the very least... he was attending film school, and knew movie-making crowd, Reet lived in the area of movie production companies. That tiny bit of chance that he knew something was definitely there... in handsight.

I would say its not a longshot. He has evidently traveled from LA to the northeast. (He could have very well, and most likely he did, travel back and fourth more than once).

They even have it on record that he was contemplating going to Canada and Mexico and even Europe.

Crossing the border is probably no big deal back then.

Everything fits with Alcala, how he looks (this is what is the most interesting, he is identical to how they describe John), the name (JOHN, which is the name he used), his confirmed whereabouts (NH/NY), where he was while in California (Hollywood, Los Angeles), also the way she was killed is the making of a serial killer-type (its mad overkill).

Someone said that he might very well have committed his first murders this way, to later go over to strangulation. It actually appeaes this way, as his forst victim(s) was NOT strangled.

Everything fit Rodney Alcala. I stand by my guess that he is the perpetrator. I am actually confident to say it is him without a shadow of a doubt, and I have been right before.

Further more that other girl also killed same way and found nearby. I'd agree with someone else here who said it has to be the same killer (ie. Rodney Alcala).

I ONLY STATE MY BELIEF. Amen.

 

[InternetDetective]

Nevermind; didn't know Manson was interviewed as late as 2016 about this case. (Not that he would have remembered anything even if he'd done this crime.) I was talking about how when Reet's body was first discovered they didn't make the connection to Alcala yet. Which is quite a shame because this killing and choice of victim closely fits his style.

He wasn't really known as a serial killer by then. Just some random violent mad man.

Charles Manson probably remembers everything. He stated himself that he didn't kill a single person, I believe he told the truth. Charles Manson is not a murderer or serial killer.

 

[InternetDetective]

Just like Reet Jurvetson can travel from Canada to California, so can Rodney Alcala travel from California to Canada.

 

[beubeubeu]

IMO there are two reasons why a murderer could stab a victim.
First - cause he's a murderer and into stabbing.
Second - cause at the time of murder stabbing seemed like the best option to stop the victim from being alive.
Big guys are rarely using small knives.
With planned murder it's easy to get better weapon.
With somewhat unplanned murder... Reet was 5 ft 9 in, so relatively tall for a woman, but very skinny. It wouldn't be much of a challenge for Alcala-sized man to beat her up and strangle, also more obvious way of, excuse my language, expressing violence. Everything is possible if so little is known about the case, but I'd expect her murderer to have somewhat comparable strength to Reet's. Like more Charles Manson type, not so much Alcala.

Part of what I have tried to say... He is in the northeastern part of North America. Montreal is not far from NH and NY.

But this was in regards to when they interviewed Charles Manson about this case, which was in 2016 after they had her identity confirmed.

Then indeed it's a shame that they haven't asked Alcala.
I woudn't bet much on it, but realistically, even if Manson knew something about Reet's murder, it'd be probably second or third hand knowledge - something that he could still remember in 1970's but likely not in 2016.
Alcala on the other hand... if he was involved, she would be one of his first victims, murdered in different way, if also preceeded by some prior acquitancy or even relationship, he would almost certainly remember her even then.

Having said that, it was 1969, Los Angeles. So probably something around 20 active, local serial killers and 50 more with unknown location, possibly visiting. LE couldn't realistically interview them all just cause of "maybe".

 

[beubeubeu]

Everything fits with Alcala, how he looks (this is what is the most interesting, he is identical to how they describe John), the name (JOHN, which is the name he used), his confirmed whereabouts (NH/NY), where he was while in California (Hollywood, Los Angeles), also the way she was killed is the making of a serial killer-type (its mad overkill).

But how did he looked like in 1969?
Below are his pics from the "wanted" poster released in 1969(?)

Not so much resemblance to Morrison. Few years later yes, but did he fit that description then?

 

[InternetDetective]

...and all three kind of look different.

FYI First one is 1963, second middle one is 1967, last one 1968. The last one is more similar to how he looked later in life (makes sense) and also to Morrison.

Almost look like you can see his looks slightly changing on these pictures. Which makes sense...

 

[beubeubeu]

View attachment 389290
...and all three kind of look different.

FYI First one is 1963, second middle one is 1967, last one 1968. The last one is more similar to how he looked later in life (makes sense) and also to Morrison.

Almost look like you can see his looks slightly changing on these pictures. Which makes sense...

Thanks, I couldn't find better resolution to read dates.
1963, so he's 20 on the first pic. In the army, so logical that his hair are short.
4 years later, 24, discharged, longer hair, following hairstyle trends from so-called artistic circles.

I have trouble seeing that. I mean...

If I saw a guy who looks like this today:



Then it's quite likely that I could make a mental note about him: "oh, this guy looked kinda like Jim Morrison" or "that guy had Jim Morrison hairstyle".

But I have serious trouble recalling seeing any man with similar hairstyle in quite some time. It's not in fashion now, and it was in fashion in late 68 and for some time later.

And this is 1968 Jim Morrison. This is what people saw in papers and occasionally maybe also on tv.



I just can't imagine young girl in the late 60's, somewhat connected to the hippie scene to go through her daily life, then see this creepy muppet...



... just to remember him as closely resembling Jim Morrison.
Unless everyone who agreed on it, or recalled him to look like Jim had next to zero exposure to handsome young men with longer hair.
In that case absolutely.

For someone exposed only to young men wearing themselves like those two fine gentelmans visible on the picture below and representing Montreal street fasion from 1968 (it's a screenshot from this video

) I can totally see it as valid possibility.
Muppet shows up, he has longer hair, looks kinda handsome, this Jim Morrison guy also has longer hair, also handsome, also dresses himself more hippielike, not as clean cut as other guys around => easy to see a connection, easy to make this mental note, easy to remember him like this.



I'm under impression that it wasn't the case with those who had a chance to meet that "John" and share their experience after Reet was identified.
If it was... then it really tells us nothing more than "a guy, in early to late 20's, with longer hair".
But if it wasn't... well, every random group picture from party or music festival and there is at least one (sometimes even a few) guys looking kinda like Jim Morrison. For a young woman from late 60's, one who saw many hippies, to say that she remembered a guy as looking like Jim Morrison, I'd bet on some significant resemblance.

 

[beubeubeu]

I still have issues with the known part of Reet's story.

So she met this JohnJean guy and fell in love. That'd still be teenage love, that's like a hurricane.
And she was so in love that she was saving every penny she could, for months, to get enough money to move to California and meet with him.
Months. And in the meantime what? Where are their letters? Postcards? Calls? - lost, hidden, never existed?
Those things should leave tracks.
Apparently she had no issue with making her friends/people around her aware of this JohnJean, her feelings for him, her plans to move to Cali (at some point or possibly even since they met).
I'd expect her to talk about him all the time, or at least update her close friends about every little thing. And I'd expect it to be interesting enough to be remembered. Especially after everyone lost tracks of her after that.

And this supposed talk with other JohnJean. So she moved away to live with them, was SOOO in love with JohnJean, their story ended with "she lived with us for few weeks and left, she was okay when I last saw her" and no raised eyebrows?
I understand to not see it as big thing if they were just friends or acquaintances, and Reets goal was to move to Cali with their help - in this case it'd seem perfectly fine. Simple conclusion: so okay, I don't need to worry, everything seems to be going well for her, I'll wait to get some news from her then.

Just from her wikipedia page.
"On November 16, 1969, the fully clothed body of a white female was located in a dense bushland off Mulholland Drive in Los Angeles, California by a 15-year-old boy who had been birdwatching."
I'm reading that and my eyes are starting to roll.
Could be, of course. I've heard of at least one 15yo boy who was seriously into birdwatching in his youth, just to became national park ranger and continue this passion through adulthood, but really? Some 15 yo boy was birdwatching on the side of the road of Mullholland Drive? Unless it was an appropriate way to politely explain of how he planned to pee there, after his family member or a friend stopped the car to let him do so before they'll reach their final destination I'd be very interested in what exactly he was doing there. Any lovers lane kind of spot nearby maybe?
I'm not meaning this as to make this boy look suspicious, but if birdwatching wasn't a real reason of his presence there, then maybe other young people were showing up there with same reason too.

When she was found she was in good shape. Healthy, well-nourished, well dressed. No signs of prior abuse that I know of. No alcohol, no drugs in her system. Found Sunday afternoon I guess. 24-48 hours after murder. So TOD sometime between Friday afternoon and Saturday afternoon. Murdered two hours after she had a meal. Not robbed. Not sexually assaulted. Dumped there cause obviously she wasn't murdered on the branch her body was hanging on.

I was thinking about this so many times before and then my mind kept wrapping itself around the rock solid assumption that second JohnJean was lying and that one or both of them are responsible for her death. Months passed since I last looked at this story and this time I wonder: and what if he was telling truth?
He kinda claimed the same as Reet did. That she lived with them at some point, for some time. No visible signs of prior physical abuse on her body. And pen knife being the murder weapon. How often domestic murders are commited with pen knives? Sometimes I guess, but plethora of more efficient murder weapons in every flat - in comparison to not much but bare hands to chose apart of pen knife with attacks that took place outside of the household.
I wonder: why was she happy? He allegedly said something to that accord. She shouldn't be "happy" moving out after breakup, forced to do so after spending months on saving money just to get there and be with the guy she fell in love with. It's not a time when woman feels happy. Sounds kinda like a lie... unless that romance never happened and was never that serious, and they were just friendly and glad to help her out starting her life in LA.
This scenario appears as quite interesting for me, cause: why was she happy? Where did she left? Did she met someone? Got exciting job opportunity? What happened before?
And was she the only person from Montreal who lived with them to accomodate in LA? Were they her only familiar faces there?

 

[beubeubeu]

"His handcuffs were removed, he picked up a pen with his left hand and waited for Orange County Superior Court Judge F.P. Briseno to bring in the 12 jurors..."

From: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwj-wPmj4o78AhWsi_0HHQWqDRsQFnoECA8QAQ&url=https://www.laweekly.com/rodney-alcala-the-fine-art-of-killing/&usg=AOvVaw2PqbhDgPD20QZP6X49zKLf

If Rodney Alcala was left-handed, and as coroner said, Reet's killer was right-handed, then he's most likely not the one responsible.

 

[InternetDetective]

Look at all the pictures of him, he looks like Morrison in most of them. The one you posted looks a bit different with the hair.

Just because he picked up a pen with his left hand doesn't mean he is left handed. I could pick up a pen with my toes if I wanted.

 

[InternetDetective]

Curious about where in New Hampshire Alcala was living (and arrested)? Anyone knows?

 

[dotr]

Curious about where in New Hampshire Alcala was living (and arrested)? Anyone knows?

2010 rbbm

Serial killer lived in New Hampshire

CONCORD, N.H. (AP) — Authorities are investigating whether a serial killer on death row in California for the murders of four women and a 12-year-old girl is linked to any unsolved murders in New Ham…

www.fosters.com

''CONCORD, N.H. (AP) — Authorities are investigating whether a serial killer on death row in California for the murders of four women and a 12-year-old girl is linked to any unsolved murders in New Hampshire.

Authorities say 66-year-old Rodney Alcala lived in New Hampshire in the late 1960s and early 1970s, going by the name of John Berger.

WMUR-TV says New Hampshire has nearly a half dozen unsolved homicides from that time.

Officials say the state is looking for information about Alcala's activities in New Hampshire. Authorities also are reviewing photographs of women and girls apparently taken by Alcala that were recently released.''

 

[beubeubeu]

Look at all the pictures of him, he looks like Morrison in most of them. The one you posted looks a bit different with the hair.

Just because he picked up a pen with his left hand doesn't mean he is left handed. I could pick up a pen with my toes if I wanted.

Yes he does look somewhat similar, and yes, he even weared same iconic Morrison haircut but all these similarities (proven by pictures) with known dates of taking them are placing those similarities years AFTER whtnesses saw JohnJean in late '68/early 69.
So let's agree to disagree, not only with the above but also on possibility of picking up pens with toes in courtroom.

If Rodney Alcala was left-handed, and as coroner said, Reet's killer was right-handed, then he's most likely not the one responsible.

I used the words "if" and "the most likely".
IF he was left-handed - as in my opinion the quotted mention of him picking up pen with left hand is a good indicator that he MIGHT be left-handed (not a proof, and that's why I said "if").

I doubt that JohnJean could be Alcala also cause I'd expect people who saw him then to recognise him later as Alcala, but they could not have a chance to do so, so I still think of this as possibility.

This on the other hand, isn't such a vague possibility imo.
In the middle you have a sketch of unknown person drawn by Reet. Might be of some woman she knew (somebody said that but it wasn't confirmed) or of some famous person drawn from the picture, like with Mick Jagger (cause she made a portraif of him) but look at this resemblance:


Lips match.
Chin match.
Eyebrows match.
Eyes match.
Cheeks match.
Hair match.
Nose appears to be slightly different shape, but that's within the range of "differences" that can come from keeping head straight up vs. tilting it slightly, so also IMO a match.

 

[dotr]

LAPD Seeks to Identify Two Men in Connection with Murder of Reet Jurvetson

have you seen these men? detectives seek to identify two men in 1969 cold case murder

people.com

LAPD releases sketches of two men linked to 1969 killing of Canadian Reet Jurvetson | Globalnews.ca

Los Angeles police have released sketches of two men who are “persons of interest” in the slaying of 19-year-old Montreal woman Reet Jurvetson who was stabbed to death in 1969.

globalnews.ca

rbbm
By Andrew Russell 2016

''Los Angeles police have released sketches of two men who are “persons of interest” in the slaying of 19-year-old Montreal woman Reet Jurvetson who was stabbed to death in 1969, near the site of the infamous Manson family killings.''

''The Los Angeles Police Department released the sketches of two men Friday based on new information following an interview in July from a witness in Montreal.''

''Investigators said the witness remembered meeting Reet Jurvetson at Café Image in Montreal along with a man “John” or “Jean” who is possibly French Canadian with long hair. A second sketch was also released of a possible associate, a shorter man who sported “Beatles” type hairstyle, who may go by the same name.''

''The sketches reflect how the men would have looked when Reet Jurvetson’s body was discovered Nov. 16, 1969 on Mulholland Drive, near the Benedict Canyon home where actress Sharon Tate and four others were stabbed to death a few months earlier in August.

Police said Jurvetson had been stabbed 150 times in the upper torso and neck. No connection between Manson and the Jurvetson case has ever been found.''

 

[InternetDetective]

2010 rbbm

Serial killer lived in New Hampshire

CONCORD, N.H. (AP) — Authorities are investigating whether a serial killer on death row in California for the murders of four women and a 12-year-old girl is linked to any unsolved murders in New Ham…

www.fosters.com

''CONCORD, N.H. (AP) — Authorities are investigating whether a serial killer on death row in California for the murders of four women and a 12-year-old girl is linked to any unsolved murders in New Hampshire.

Authorities say 66-year-old Rodney Alcala lived in New Hampshire in the late 1960s and early 1970s, going by the name of John Berger.

WMUR-TV says New Hampshire has nearly a half dozen unsolved homicides from that time.

Officials say the state is looking for information about Alcala's activities in New Hampshire. Authorities also are reviewing photographs of women and girls apparently taken by Alcala that were recently released.''

Maybe you misunderstood me. I was asking  where in New Hampshire he was. I couldn't find it, but bumped into the same articles as you post.

 

[beubeubeu]

''Los Angeles police have released sketches of two men who are “persons of interest” in the slaying of 19-year-old Montreal woman Reet Jurvetson who was stabbed to death in 1969, near the site of the infamous Manson family killings.''

Sadly it doesn't seem to be even close to a good article.
Not really "near". Or do they know where the murder took place?

It's more than two miles in straight line and more than five in shortest driving distance.
Does that count as "near" in LA?

''The Los Angeles Police Department released the sketches of two men Friday based on new information following an interview in July from a witness in Montreal.''

''Investigators said the witness remembered meeting Reet Jurvetson at Café Image in Montreal along with a man “John” or “Jean” who is possibly French Canadian with long hair. A second sketch was also released of a possible associate, a shorter man who sported “Beatles” type hairstyle, who may go by the same name.''

I had no idea before, but imo it's good to know that the vast majority of young men in '69 Montreal were sporting "Beatles" type hairstyle. Like literally... that seems to be the average and what they were going for with fashion cause it's hard to see anything else on videos and pictures. Hippies longer, Morrison like hair, few guys looking like straight out of the army or having office job and everybody else had that "Beatles" hairstyle.

''The sketches reflect how the men would have looked when Reet Jurvetson’s body was discovered Nov. 16, 1969 on Mulholland Drive, near the Benedict Canyon home where actress Sharon Tate and four others were stabbed to death a few months earlier in August.

And this is just mindblowing.
How is that possible even?
If whitness saw those two when Reet was still living in Montreal, then I'd expect months before her departure.
Same whitness reportedly saw just one of those guys weeks after Reet's murder.
So how these sketches may reflect how men looked like when Reet's body was discovered?

 

[beubeubeu]

This whole two Jean's story sounded awfully like Sumter County Jane & John Doe. James Freund was also possibly going by "Jean", but probably he just got misheard... and all the rest was just inaccurate.
I strongly suspect that the whitness tried her best to recall every possible detail, but cause she wasn't Reet best friend, roomate or around most of the time, she may get many things wrong, relying more on what she tried to figure out than the little info she actually had.

 

[beubeubeu]

<modsnip - quoted post was off topic>
I never saw it stated this clearly - that whitness was certain that one of those men was John and the other Jean. Instead a bunch of "possibly", "maybe", "probably". And if so, if she didn't knew them that well, and maybe heard that once or twice, then in my pessimistic opionion, it might as well be "James" instead of "Jean" or some other name.
It'd make sense that long haired hippie from California was "John" and local guy, with locally fashionable hairstyle was "Jean", but I don't see a point in having more confidence in it than whitness reportedly had.
I'm still suspicious about her methadone claims as well. Cause to me it makes more sense that she misheard something and tried to contribute as much as she possibly could while sharing her memories - than to assume that she was right, and somehow Reet was using drugs/treating her addiction in Montreal, where drugs were less of a thing than they were in LA, moved and stayed clear in 1969'th LA (as I expressed in my earlier posts).

<modsnip - reference to quoted post>

 

[InternetDetective]

I recently watched a documentary on the possible tomb of Jesus Christ.

They had three names on the tomb, Jesus, Josef and Maria.

Expert said, Jesus was a fairly common name at that time, and so was Josef and Maria. But if you combine them the possibility (of it being the grave of Jesus) or probability of it being the actual grave becomes much greater.

My point, just a guy named "John" or a guy with long hair (not Jesus), or a guy with the name "John" with long hair doesn't say its him. But all this together, the name, the look, the geographical whereabouts of Alcala, where he was living while in California (Hollywood), etc. makes the probability that it was him almost certain (same with the Jesus family tomb).

 

[InternetDetective]

I don't see much of a point in being optimistic about over 50 yo cold case.
I never saw it stated this clearly - that whitness was certain that one of those men was John and the other Jean. Instead a bunch of "possibly", "maybe", "probably". And if so, if she didn't knew them that well, and maybe heard that once or twice, then in my pessimistic opionion, it might as well be "James" instead of "Jean" or some other name.
It'd make sense that long haired hippie from California was "John" and local guy, with locally fashionable hairstyle was "Jean", but I don't see a point in having more confidence in it than whitness reportedly had.
I'm still suspicious about her methadone claims as well. Cause to me it makes more sense that she misheard something and tried to contribute as much as she possibly could while sharing her memories - than to assume that she was right, and somehow Reet was using drugs/treating her addiction in Montreal, where drugs were less of a thing than they were in LA, moved and stayed clear in 1969'th LA (as I expressed in my earlier posts).

Not sure what kind of hateful message you are trying to get across with your other post thou. If you have reasons to think that "Beatles" hairstyle wasn't popular among young men in Montreal at the time, then share, I'll be glad to learn more. If it's only to mock transgender people and women suffering from hirsutism then I don't want to know what makes you believe this may be appropriate place to do so.

Hirsutism I dont even know what it is. But I'm not here to mock anyone.

I am just stating the obvious.