GUILTY CA - Lawrence 'Larry' King, 15, fatally shot at Oxnard school, 12 Feb 2008

[Nova]

(my bold)
That's how I feel, Nova. I'm not excusing what he did, but I do think some kids just don't truly understand the power of firearms. It also sounds like he didn't have the best family situation either. Talk about an explosive situation.

Indeed. I know it's hard to imagine and I'm sure if you had asked the shooter beforehand, he would have told you that yes, guns can kill. But somehow that's not the same as realizing that this gun will kill this child this time.

I agree with those who feel there are (at least) two tragedies here.

 

[Taximom]

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1714214,00.html
Time.com article (or is it an opinion piece?)
Prosecuting the Gay Teen Murder


http://www.mtv.com/news/articles/1582039/20080221/id_0.jhtml
Lawrence King -- Student Who Was Murdered For Being Gay -- To Be Honored With National Day Of Silence
Candlelight vigils also being organized to raise awareness about California hate crime.

 

[MeoW333]

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1714214,00.html
Time.com article (or is it an opinion piece?)
Prosecuting the Gay Teen Murder


http://www.mtv.com/news/articles/1582039/20080221/id_0.jhtml
Lawrence King -- Student Who Was Murdered For Being Gay -- To Be Honored With National Day Of Silence
Candlelight vigils also being organized to raise awareness about California hate crime.

Taximom, thank you for the links, they are very informative! I am glad that this child is being remembered, as it seemed he had no family to turn to.

The first link mentions a case in which a gay man was killed by a bisexual man and was considered "a hate crime".
It's an interesting thing to ponder, as a child killed a child in this case. At that age, children are confused in general about themselves, and worried about how they will appear to their peers. I agree that there are 2 victims here; a young boy who was secure enough in his sexuality to be open about it, and another young boy who just threw his life away, for reasons we have yet to find out. I really don't think a lot of these kids think about consequences. They can premeditate things beforehand, yet i don't think they take into account the aftermath in all cases.

 

[Nova]

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1714214,00.html
Time.com article (or is it an opinion piece?)
Prosecuting the Gay Teen Murder....

Thanks, Taximom. The story has now been amended to correct various errors (each of those errors--coincidentally, I'm sure--favored the author's conclusion). The line between article and opinion has always been a fine one in Time.

The writer's basic argument--that because it is difficult to prove state of mind as required by hate-crime laws, there should be no such laws--is fallacious. We have many types of laws that depend on determining the state of mind of the perp, most particularly murder laws, where the various categories of unlawful killing quite often depend on such a determination. The fact that it's difficult doesn't mean it can't be done.

Whether this particular crime is an argument for greater federal protections is another matter. Seems to me California has the laws; this 14-year-old killer didn't care.

 

[Nova]

Taximom, thank you for the links, they are very informative! I am glad that this child is being remembered, as it seemed he had no family to turn to.

The first link mentions a case in which a gay man was killed by a bisexual man and was considered "a hate crime".
It's an interesting thing to ponder, as a child killed a child in this case. At that age, children are confused in general about themselves, and worried about how they will appear to their peers. I agree that there are 2 victims here; a young boy who was secure enough in his sexuality to be open about it, and another young boy who just threw his life away, for reasons we have yet to find out. I really don't think a lot of these kids think about consequences. They can premeditate things beforehand, yet i don't think they take into account the aftermath in all cases.

The case the writer cites is a difficult one. The intended crime was just a robbery and the perps found their victim in a gay-chat room and lured him to the crime site with promises of sex. The victim was hit by a car and killed while trying to get away. This was certainly felony murder (unlawful death during the commission of a felony) and I don't think it's impossible for bisexuals to commit gay-hate crimes, but whether this case constitutes a hate crime is highly debateable.

However, it's typical of the article that a highly problematic and atypical case is used as an argument against hate-crime laws in general. Taximom was right when she tagged the piece an op-ed.

 

[Snowbird]

You don't specify what you mean by "homosexuality." If you mean sexual orientation, then objection is akin to objecting to some people's tendency to choose vanilla ice cream


You did indeed. But you also bemoan the loss of a climate of hatred in which impressionable young people have all too often concluded that killing gay people is socially acceptable. Unfortunately, people--especially teenagers--get confused when we give them mixed messages.

These children are TOO YOUNG to have to deal with same sex, homosexual relationships. It should not be dealt with in schools with young children.


At that age the schools need a uniform dress code, boys are boys and girls are girls.

I have never taught HATRED to my children or grandchildren and do not expect them to have to deal with these subjects at this age level. They are taught that same sex , homosexual relationships are wrong because that is our belief but they are not taught hatred.

 

[Snowbird]

I feel bad for both kids. I just don't think a 14/15-year-old commits a hate crime without a lot of "help" (perhaps unintentional) from his family, friends, community, etc.

I'm sorry if the thread (ETA: your thread) seemed to go "astray." I thought we were trying to clarify what happened and what each of thinks about what happened.

We still do not know what happened as we have only heard one side of the story reported.

 

[MeoW333]

Nova, that case from the link was atypical for sure, yet i would still consider it a hate crime. Whether or not the killer in that case was really bisexual is up for speculation. He definitely had issues with his own sexuality to go to the extreme to kill lure and kill someone who was gay. The man in that case also had 3 friends involved who i'm sure had no idea of his claims to be bisexual.

Snowbird, the world has changed and things have become more accepted through out the years, which is what has made more people come out, as their is less fear of unacceptance/retaliation. Children nowadays are growing up a lot quicker than 20, 30 years ago, so they deal with these issues on a daily basis. Also 20,30,40 years ago things were not talked about as they are now. So i think it safe to say that many kids were dealing with any issues they had in silence back then, as so much was considered taboo.
I understand you have your beliefs, everyone has different beliefs.
Yet we've only heard that one side of the story you mention since a dead boy cannot speak.

Can we please put aside personal issues with sexuality and try and find out what the killer's home life was like, where he got access to a gun?
It is obviously a hate crime, since Larry had faced prior ridicule by Brandon and others before this regarding his sexual identity.
We need to be asking what was going on in Brandon's home life where he didn't care about being locked up, since obviously he knew he would get in trouble for shooting and killing someone. Was his home life that bad, that he was looking for a way out? Maybe he felt this way and it wasn't even apparent to him at the time. I don't know, there's a lot more information we need yet. Since he is 15, and not an adult i don't think he should be charged as one, yet i don't think he should get out at age 21 either.

 

[SheWhoMustNotBeNamed]

These children are TOO YOUNG to have to deal with same sex, homosexual relationships. It should not be dealt with in schools with young children.


At that age the schools need a uniform dress code, boys are boys and girls are girls.

I have never taught HATRED to my children or grandchildren and do not expect them to have to deal with these subjects at this age level. They are taught that same sex , homosexual relationships are wrong because that is our belief but they are not taught hatred.

I read somewhere else (I'll try to find it) that this school DID have a dress code. And Larry followed it. This dress code doesn't stop anyone from wearing makeup, including boys.

I don't understand what you mean by "they're too young to have to deal with homosexual relationships". Homosexuality isn't something that comes with age. Obviously our beliefs here are different, but if a teenager is homosexual, he should not have to hide that because someone else isn't ready to accept it. These are children, yes, but not extremely young. I would expect any 8th grader to be able to "deal" with the issue of homosexuality.

MeoW - I agree with you. I wonder if we will ever know anything more about this shooter. It seems like we haven't heard much of anything since the incident. Maybe more will come out once they get to trial, if that's where this is headed.

 

[Snowbird]

Since he is 15, and not an adult i don't think he should be charged as one, yet i don't think he should get out at age 21 either.

Actually the killer is 14 and the youngest of the two. The victim was 15.

 

[SheWhoMustNotBeNamed]

Parents have the right to teach it though. Kids should have the right to not be exposed to any sexual come ons at school If they say no, it's no - whether straight or gay. Suddenly California has made it difficult to say NO to gay come ons. That's an issue in my mind about this case. No one deserves to have their life ended because of someone else. I'm not blaming the victim, I'm blaming the environment that helped this get to the point it did.

Is that even part of this issue? I haven't read anywhere that Larry tried to "come on" to the shooter.

Homosexuality (whether one means the orientation or the behavior) is a naturally occurring phenomenon (or group of phenomena, if you prefer) found in all cultures, and in other species as well as humans. However uncomfortable the subject may be to some parents, insisting it be kept secret from young teenagers is precisely analogous to snake-phobic parents demanding their children not hear about snakes "until they are old enough to handle it." Except that it's more dangerous: teens in some areas may be shielded from seeing a snake; there's no way to shield them from some sort of knowledge of sex and sexuality.

Agreed 100%. Homosexual behavior is going to happen, in the same way that heterosexual behavior is. We all know that some boys and girls that are teenagers, even if they are still in middle school, engage in sexual behavior. Some of these kids are going to be homosexual. It's just the way things work. No one should attempt to shield their children (especially teenagers) from this fact of life.

 

[justche]

Is that even part of this issue? I haven't read anywhere that Larry tried to "come on" to the shooter.

There was at least one altercation before the shooting - details have not been released.

 

[MeoW333]

Snowbird, you are correct, he is 14, i was mistaken in my post. However 14, 15 years old, that's still a child in my book.

Justche and Snowbird you are both asking to hear the other side of a story from a dead boy who cannot speak and the altercation prior.

Justche i think it is way out of line for you to claim that Nova has an agenda; as you may as well claim i do also since i stick up for all victims, etc.

"Students have said King was teased because he was gay. Some classmates also reported a confrontation between the two boys in the days before the shooting."

"State Sen. Sheila Kuehl, D-Santa Monica, whose district includes the 1,168-student Oxnard school, wrote a bill that took effect Jan. 1 and prohibits discrimination in the classroom based on gender identity, sexual orientation or disability.
"The fact that he (King) was being harassed indicated to me there was a larger danger looming for him," Kuehl said."
http://venturacountystar.com/news/2008/feb/16/slain-teen-remembered-as-fun-quirky-at-rainbow/

Does that help clear the altercation up a bit for you two? I would like to think that the law would not be pursuing it as a hate crime if they had no evidence it was not a hate crime. Obviously they are privy to information we don't have, that give them reason to pursue it as a hate crime.

----------------------------------------------------------------

"Court records show that his father, Bill McInerney, has had brushes with the law in recent years.

In 2000, he pleaded no contest to disturbing the peace in July, and a few months later to a single count of domestic abuse. McInerney was given 10 days in jail and 36 months' probation for the abuse conviction, records show.

In 2002, he pleaded guilty to drunk driving and being an unlicensed driver. He served five days in jail and was fined."

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-oxnard15feb15,0,7663055.story?page=2

I missed this before on page 2 of a link i posted. Seems to show a little about Brandon's home life. I come from an abused home, did i shoot anyone? Not that it gives him an excuse, his behavior is unexcusable and murder is unacceptable.

 

[MeoW333]

Please bear with me, i don't know how to put multiple quotes of people's into the reply box here.

Idaho4Groenes, i agreed completely that Larry shouldn't have had to hide who he was.

Nova, as for the Fortunado case, i wish i had LexixNexis, as i am baffled at this point..

I am saddened that this case thread has turned into a battle over homosexuality and that some of us are having to defend a boy for was murdered. Obviously no one is going to agree on everything; yet, please remember a 15 year old child lost his life, and a 14 year old child just threw his away. Have a heart.

The above post i posted shows some of Brandon's father's arrests which include domestic abuse, drunken driving and disturbing the peace.
This should tell us a lot about how Brandon's home life was. There are 2 victims here.
If Brandon had come from a better home, would he still have killed another boy?
I'm putting 2 and 2 together here; yet it sounds like his father may be an abusive alcoholic.

 

[SheWhoMustNotBeNamed]

There was at least one altercation before the shooting - details have not been released.

So you are just assuming that this "altercation" means that Larry was trying to hit on the shooter. Wow, blaming the victim again.

I am saddened that this case thread has turned into a battle over homosexuality and that some of us are having to defend a boy for was murdered. Obviously no one is going to agree on everything; yet, please remember a 15 year old child lost his life, and a 14 year old child just threw his away. Have a heart.

The above post i posted shows some of Brandon's father's arrests which include domestic abuse, drunken driving and disturbing the peace.
This should tell us a lot about how Brandon's home life was. There are 2 victims here.
If Brandon had come from a better home, would he still have killed another boy?
I'm putting 2 and 2 together here; yet it sounds like his father may be an abusive alcoholic.

I agree with you. I can't believe that we are having to defend a murdered child. And yes, it is very likely that the shooter's home life led him to do this. Not that it makes it okay, or right, or anything else. But it appears Brandon's home life was not a pleasant environment.

 

[justche]

So you are just assuming that this "altercation" means that Larry was trying to hit on the shooter. Wow, blaming the victim again.

We "assume" a lot of things on this board. But suddenly when it's politically correct we are turning away from looking at what else may have been a factor. I find that incredibly disheartening (and dishonest).
Being part of a factor does not excuse the killing, it does not somehow justify it, it's just part of the big picture to understand the whole thing. To make it totally a "hate crime" without possibly understanding anything with the shooters mindset is a mistake.

With the shooting in IL - oooh the medication was to blame, didn't take a bit of responsibility from the actions that were taken.

With Stacy Peterson, she might well have put herself in harms way, probably some clues there that in hindsight should have said RUN, not "marry him!" - does that take away from the punishment that we hope Drew gets? Or that we don't hope she's found! NO!

With the sweet little girl in Las Vegas - tenuous at best her home life - does it excuse what Chester did? Absolutely not, but we understand how there was an opportunity for it to happen.

I feel it's dishonest to say I'm blaming the victim, I am certainly not - I do think there is more to the story then what we are hearing.

 

[MeoW333]

For those on here who need to know what the altercation was about, here:

"In recent weeks, the victim, Lawrence King, 15, had said publicly that he was gay, classmates said, enduring harassment from a group of schoolmates, including the 14-year-old boy charged in his death."
"In interviews, classmates of the two boys at E. O. Green Junior High School said Lawrence had started wearing mascara, lipstick and jewelry to school, prompting a group of male students to bully him.

“They teased him because he was different,” said Marissa Moreno, 13, also in the eighth grade. “But he wasn’t afraid to show himself.”

Link to article:
http://news.aol.com/story/_a/boys-killing-labeled-a-hate-crime/20080223141909990001

 

[Nova]

Thanks, MeoW. Now that we've seen half a dozen reports with nary a mention of the victim "coming on" to the shooter, maybe we can put that line of speculation to rest.

At least until some defense attorney raises it again...

"The gay guy came on to me so I killed him" ranks right up there with "the chick was flirting with me so I raped her" and "the black guy looked at my girlfriend so I killed him" in the annals of lame, but historically successful, defense arguments.

There. That's my agenda.

 

[bnhall]

Larry was a crocheter who made gifts for his teachers and made scarves for those serving in the US military.
http://gallery.venturacountystar.com/video.cfm?VideoID=280
His mother also crochets and is a member of some crochet forums, although she hasn't been active since this happened. A group of us on the crochet and knit group Ravelry are going to make some scarves in honor of him and donate them to the same charity he donated to.

This entire situation is a tragedy. I think he was brave in being willing to withstand the bullying and hatred that was thrown his way and still be himself. The shooter obviously had some issues that led to him taking action in this way.

 

[Nova]

...A group of us on the crochet and knit group Ravelry are going to make some scarves in honor of him and donate them to the same charity he donated to....

That's awesome, bn!