Deceased/Not Found CA - Lucinda Schaefer, 17, Redondo Beach, 24 June 1979 *Bittaker & Norris guilty*

[CarlK90245]

Cindy arrives in the area on June 5, 1979 with her mother. Her mother leaves for Mexico on June 19.
Five days later, on June 24, Cindy is missing. Supposedly her shoe is deposited on the street on that day. Roy Norris is arrested Nov 23. Five plus months later investigators find her shoe on the side of the road? This doesn’t seem reasonable. Ave A and Prospect are well travelled roads and there is weekly mechanical street sweeping. If a shoe was found it’s difficult to believe it was left there 5-6 months prior.

She’s in the area a total of 19 days.

The shoe wasn't found five months later. It was found the same day, and documented in the police reports. A friend of mine - Laura Brand is writing a book about the Bittaker Norris murders and she has copies of the entire collection of police reports. Laura has interviewed Bittaker and Norris prior to their recent deaths. And she had interviewed Bittaker numerous times over a five year period both in person at San Quentin and by telephone.

Norris led police to the location where the bones of Leah Lamp and Jackie Gilliam were found, and the tape of Lynette Ledford pretty much proves their involvement in those three murders. I traveled up to that location with Laura and Andrea's sister.

She has also interviewed two women whom Bittaker and Norris attempted to abduct, and their stories jibe with Bittaker's account perfectly.

With the exception of Lynette Ledford, all of the other abductions and attempted abductions took place in that time window of several months in the Redondo Beach / Torrance area. Norris lived in a house on 313 Garnet Street - about a mile from where Cindy was last seen. Police arrested Norris at that location on November 21, and subsequently arrested Bittaker in Burbank at a motel where he was living. If you google street map that location of Norris' home, you can see a big picture window above the garage. While running surveillance on his home, they were able to see him sitting at a dining room table right in front of that window, packaging a large quantity of Marijuana. That was the pretext they needed to arrest him.

Most of what was known previously about the case was based on Norris' account. Bittaker never cooperated with law enforcement but Laura was able to develop enough of a rapport with Bittaker that she was able to get him to talk openly about the murders, including Cindy and Andrea.

He even drew a map for Laura, showing exactly where they originally saw Cindy at Avenue A and PCH, how they circled around the block to the west of PCH, and then approached her just after she had turned east on Avenue A (on the south side of the street. They stopped and asked her if she wanted to smoke some marijuana with them, and she declined and continued on, crossing to the left side of the street at about Juanita Avenue, They drove up to Prospect Avenue, made a U-turn, and parked facing west on the north side of Avenue A, just west of Prospect. As Cindy was passing the van, Norris grabbed Cindy and dragged her into the van.

The police reports, which Laura has copies of, state that the shoe was found in that exact spot on the day of her disappearance.

Most of what I had thought I knew about the case was based on news stories and documentaries about the case is wrong. But Laura has collected an enormous amount of information about the case. I had thought (and had stated on this thread) that she had walked up Avenue D to Prospect and was picked up on Avenue A - east of Prospect. I have since edited my earlier comment to indicate that she walked north on PCH to Avenue A and was abducted west of Prospect.

 

[chikkyyfox]

The shoe wasn't found five months later. It was found the same day, and documented in the police reports. A friend of mine - Laura Brand is writing a book about the Bittaker Norris murders and she has copies of the entire collection of police reports. Laura has interviewed Bittaker and Norris prior to their recent deaths. And she had interviewed Bittaker numerous times over a five year period both in person at San Quentin and by telephone.

Norris led police to the location where the bones of Leah Lamp and Jackie Gilliam were found, and the tape of Lynette Ledford pretty much proves their involvement in those three murders. I traveled up to that location with Laura and Andrea's sister.

She has also interviewed two women whom Bittaker and Norris attempted to abduct, and their stories jibe with Bittaker's account perfectly.

With the exception of Lynette Ledford, all of the other abductions and attempted abductions took place in that time window of several months in the Redondo Beach / Torrance area. Norris lived in a house on 313 Garnet Street - about a mile from where Cindy was last seen. Police arrested Norris at that location on November 20, and subsequently arrested Bittaker in Burbank at a motel where he was living. If you google street map that location of Norris' home, you can see a big picture window above the garage. While running surveillance on his home, they were able to see him sitting at a dining room table right in front of that window, packaging a large quantity of Marijuana. That was the pretext they needed to arrest him.

Most of what was known previously about the case was based on Norris' account. Bittaker never cooperated with law enforcement but Laura was able to develop enough of a rapport with Bittaker that she was able to get him to talk openly about the murders, including Cindy and Andrea.

He even drew a map for Laura, showing exactly where they originally saw Cindy at Avenue A and PCH, how they circled around the block to the west of PCH, and then approached her just after she had turned east on Avenue A (on the south side of the street. They stopped and asked her if she wanted to smoke some marijuana with them, and she declined and continued on, crossing to the left side of the street at about Juanita Avenue, They drove up to Prospect Avenue, made a U-turn, and parked facing west on the north side of Avenue A, just west of Prospect. As Cindy was passing the van, Norris grabbed Cindy and dragged her into the van.

The police reports, which Laura has copies of, state that the shoe was found in that exact spot on the day of her disappearance.

Most of what I had thought I knew about the case was based on news stories and documentaries about the case is wrong. But Laura has collected an enormous amount of information about the case. I had thought (and had stated on this thread) that she had walked up Avenue D to Prospect and was picked up on Avenue A - east of Prospect. I have since edited my earlier comment to indicate that she walked north on PCH to Avenue A and was abducted west of Prospect.

I read somewhere that Norris actually knew where Cindy's body was but lied to police since her body would prove that her head was beaten with a hammer (by Norris) and she had died from that and not by being strangled? Is that true or just misinformation? It's unfortunate there's so much misinformation on this case online.

 

[CarlK90245]

I read somewhere that Norris actually knew where Cindy's body was but lied to police since her body would prove that her head was beaten with a hammer (by Norris) and she had died from that and not by being strangled? Is that true or just misinformation? It's unfortunate there's so much misinformation on this case online.

If Norris had such concerns, he wouldn't have led them to Jackie's remains with an icepick imbedded in her skull.

 

[chikkyyfox]

If Norris had such concerns, he wouldn't have led them to Jackie's remains with an icepick imbedded in her skull.

That's true. Maybe he just forgot.
I also read that Bittaker gave Laura Brand the locations of the missing bodies. Do you think Cindy's remains could ever be found?
Does she have any living relatives?

 

[CarlK90245]

That's true. Maybe he just forgot.
I also read that Bittaker gave Laura Brand the locations of the missing bodies. Do you think Cindy's remains could ever be found?
Does she have any living relatives?

Yes, he did. But the terrain is very steep, and extremely difficult to navigate, and there is a reservior at the bottom of the mountain, about a mile down the hill. They were very lucky to find Leah and Jackie even after a few months. 40 years of rain, wildfires, and scavenging animals, it is a long shot.

Cindy's mother passed a few years ago. I'm not sure about her father. She has a brother living in the Cincinnati area, and a half-brother living (I believe in Texas).

 

[Richard]

It would be interesting to hear exactly what Norris said regarding where they put Cindy's body. My feeling is that if he openly told investigators where two of the other victims were placed, he had nothing more to lose by telling.

Official reports stating that Norris led them to the other girls' bodies would be important evidence linking those murders to Norris and Bittaker. Whereas, NOT finding Cindy's body could have been left out of reports and press releases for some reason.

Although Cindy's murder is considered solved, her body has not yet been recovered.

 

[CarlK90245]

It would be interesting to hear exactly what Norris said regarding where they put Cindy's body. My feeling is that if he openly told investigators where two of the other victims were placed, he had nothing more to lose by telling.

Official reports stating that Norris led them to the other girls' bodies would be important evidence linking those murders to Norris and Bittaker. Whereas, NOT finding Cindy's body could have been left out of reports and press releases for some reason.

Although Cindy's murder is considered solved, her body has not yet been recovered.

There is a photo circulating on the internet, showing Norris standing with an investigator, pointing his finger toward a small hill. Though it is not shown in the photo, they are standing facing the precise spot where he said that they left Cindy. It appears that he is pointing towards the spot where they parked the van.

But according to Laura, Bittaker gave her a different nearby location. Laura is still very determined to do a very thorough search of both locations - Cindy's location and Andrea's location. She hasn't disclosed those locations to me or most of her other friends, because she doesn't want people attempting to do their own searches.

 

[Richard]

There is a photo circulating on the internet, showing Norris standing with an investigator, pointing his finger toward a small hill. Though it is not shown in the photo, they are standing facing the precise spot where he said that they left Cindy. It appears that he is pointing towards the spot where they parked the van.

But according to Laura, Bittaker gave her a different nearby location. Laura is still very determined to do a very thorough search of both locations - Cindy's location and Andrea's location. She hasn't disclosed those locations to me or most of her other friends, because she doesn't want people attempting to do their own searches.

Did either of them claim to have buried Cindy, or any of their victims? Or did they give any specifics?

 

[CarlK90245]

Did either of them claim to have buried Cindy, or any of their victims? Or did they give any specifics?

No, they say they just threw Cindy and Andrea over the hillsides (at two different locations). No attempt to bury them. They probably would have been easy to find if several months hadn't passed before they knew where to look .

 

[chikkyyfox]

No, they say they just threw Cindy and Andrea over the hillsides (at two different locations). No attempt to bury them. They probably would have been easy to find if several months hadn't passed before they knew where to look .

Didn't Bittaker and Norris have additional victims? Has Laura identified any of them? I wonder how many other bodies are in those mountains.

 

[CarlK90245]

Didn't Bittaker and Norris have additional victims? Has Laura identified any of them? I wonder how many other bodies are in those mountains.

There probably were, though I don't know any specifics, or whether she knows of any others by name.

Between Angeles Crest, and Glendora Ridge / Mt. Baldy Road, I'm sure there are countless bodies. That has always been a popular dumping ground.

 

[CarlK90245]

No, they say they just threw Cindy and Andrea over the hillsides (at two different locations). No attempt to bury them. They probably would have been easy to find if several months hadn't passed before they knew where to look .

This is a still frame from a video that I took of Laura Brand (right) with Andrea Hall's sister (middle), looking over the hillside, right about the same spot where the photo of Roy Norris (pointing his finger) was taken. The man on the left is a friend of Laura's who went along with us.

Norris told investigators that this was the spot where they dumped Cindy's body, though Bittaker gave Laura a different location.

 

[bobbby]

The shoe wasn't found five months later. It was found the same day, and documented in the police reports. A friend of mine - Laura Brand is writing a book about the Bittaker Norris murders and she has copies of the entire collection of police reports. Laura has interviewed Bittaker and Norris prior to their recent deaths. And she had interviewed Bittaker numerous times over a five year period both in person at San Quentin and by telephone.

Norris led police to the location where the bones of Leah Lamp and Jackie Gilliam were found, and the tape of Lynette Ledford pretty much proves their involvement in those three murders. I traveled up to that location with Laura and Andrea's sister.

She has also interviewed two women whom Bittaker and Norris attempted to abduct, and their stories jibe with Bittaker's account perfectly.

With the exception of Lynette Ledford, all of the other abductions and attempted abductions took place in that time window of several months in the Redondo Beach / Torrance area. Norris lived in a house on 313 Garnet Street - about a mile from where Cindy was last seen. Police arrested Norris at that location on November 21, and subsequently arrested Bittaker in Burbank at a motel where he was living. If you google street map that location of Norris' home, you can see a big picture window above the garage. While running surveillance on his home, they were able to see him sitting at a dining room table right in front of that window, packaging a large quantity of Marijuana. That was the pretext they needed to arrest him.

Most of what was known previously about the case was based on Norris' account. Bittaker never cooperated with law enforcement but Laura was able to develop enough of a rapport with Bittaker that she was able to get him to talk openly about the murders, including Cindy and Andrea.

He even drew a map for Laura, showing exactly where they originally saw Cindy at Avenue A and PCH, how they circled around the block to the west of PCH, and then approached her just after she had turned east on Avenue A (on the south side of the street. They stopped and asked her if she wanted to smoke some marijuana with them, and she declined and continued on, crossing to the left side of the street at about Juanita Avenue, They drove up to Prospect Avenue, made a U-turn, and parked facing west on the north side of Avenue A, just west of Prospect. As Cindy was passing the van, Norris grabbed Cindy and dragged her into the van.

The police reports, which Laura has copies of, state that the shoe was found in that exact spot on the day of her disappearance.

Most of what I had thought I knew about the case was based on news stories and documentaries about the case is wrong. But Laura has collected an enormous amount of information about the case. I had thought (and had stated on this thread) that she had walked up Avenue D to Prospect and was picked up on Avenue A - east of Prospect. I have since edited my earlier comment to indicate that she walked north on PCH to Avenue A and was abducted west of Prospect.

“The police reports, which Laura has copies of, state that the shoe was found in that exact spot on the day of her disappearance.”

With all due respect, sir that statement is just not believable. Teenagers are reported missing regularly and usually come home within a few days meaning police departments don’t act on them right away. Plus Cindy disappeared, as you say at 7:46pm on a Sunday evening. The police were searching around the streets that Sunday evening and found a shoe?

Maybe Norris did this alone? I mean what is Bittaker doing in Redondo on a school night when he’s supposed to be working in Burbank putting in loads of overtime? It’s said how much money he was making as a machinist with a very high iq. The later three in September and October are believable that B was involved because of one being a holiday weekend and one a closer proximity to Burbank.

There is no proof of what happened to Lucinda or Andrea but plenty for the later three.

 

[bobbby]

Most of what I had thought I knew about the case was based on news stories and documentaries about the case is wrong.

The shoe wasn't found five months later. It was found the same day, and documented in the police reports. A friend of mine - Laura Brand is writing a book about the Bittaker Norris murders and she has copies of the entire collection of police reports. Laura has interviewed Bittaker and Norris prior to their recent deaths. And she had interviewed Bittaker numerous times over a five year period both in person at San Quentin and by telephone.

Norris led police to the location where the bones of Leah Lamp and Jackie Gilliam were found, and the tape of Lynette Ledford pretty much proves their involvement in those three murders. I traveled up to that location with Laura and Andrea's sister.

She has also interviewed two women whom Bittaker and Norris attempted to abduct, and their stories jibe with Bittaker's account perfectly.

With the exception of Lynette Ledford, all of the other abductions and attempted abductions took place in that time window of several months in the Redondo Beach / Torrance area. Norris lived in a house on 313 Garnet Street - about a mile from where Cindy was last seen. Police arrested Norris at that location on November 21, and subsequently arrested Bittaker in Burbank at a motel where he was living. If you google street map that location of Norris' home, you can see a big picture window above the garage. While running surveillance on his home, they were able to see him sitting at a dining room table right in front of that window, packaging a large quantity of Marijuana. That was the pretext they needed to arrest him.

Most of what was known previously about the case was based on Norris' account. Bittaker never cooperated with law enforcement but Laura was able to develop enough of a rapport with Bittaker that she was able to get him to talk openly about the murders, including Cindy and Andrea.

He even drew a map for Laura, showing exactly where they originally saw Cindy at Avenue A and PCH, how they circled around the block to the west of PCH, and then approached her just after she had turned east on Avenue A (on the south side of the street. They stopped and asked her if she wanted to smoke some marijuana with them, and she declined and continued on, crossing to the left side of the street at about Juanita Avenue, They drove up to Prospect Avenue, made a U-turn, and parked facing west on the north side of Avenue A, just west of Prospect. As Cindy was passing the van, Norris grabbed Cindy and dragged her into the van.

The police reports, which Laura has copies of, state that the shoe was found in that exact spot on the day of her disappearance.

Most of what I had thought I knew about the case was based on news stories and documentaries about the case is wrong. But Laura has collected an enormous amount of information about the case. I had thought (and had stated on this thread) that she had walked up Avenue D to Prospect and was picked up on Avenue A - east of Prospect. I have since edited my earlier comment to indicate that she walked north on PCH to Avenue A and was abducted west of Prospect.

The shoe wasn't found five months later. It was found the same day, and documented in the police reports. A friend of mine - Laura Brand is writing a book about the Bittaker Norris murders and she has copies of the entire collection of police reports. Laura has interviewed Bittaker and Norris prior to their recent deaths. And she had interviewed Bittaker numerous times over a five year period both in person at San Quentin and by telephone.

Norris led police to the location where the bones of Leah Lamp and Jackie Gilliam were found, and the tape of Lynette Ledford pretty much proves their involvement in those three murders. I traveled up to that location with Laura and Andrea's sister.

She has also interviewed two women whom Bittaker and Norris attempted to abduct, and their stories jibe with Bittaker's account perfectly.

With the exception of Lynette Ledford, all of the other abductions and attempted abductions took place in that time window of several months in the Redondo Beach / Torrance area. Norris lived in a house on 313 Garnet Street - about a mile from where Cindy was last seen. Police arrested Norris at that location on November 21, and subsequently arrested Bittaker in Burbank at a motel where he was living. If you google street map that location of Norris' home, you can see a big picture window above the garage. While running surveillance on his home, they were able to see him sitting at a dining room table right in front of that window, packaging a large quantity of Marijuana. That was the pretext they needed to arrest him.

Most of what was known previously about the case was based on Norris' account. Bittaker never cooperated with law enforcement but Laura was able to develop enough of a rapport with Bittaker that she was able to get him to talk openly about the murders, including Cindy and Andrea.

He even drew a map for Laura, showing exactly where they originally saw Cindy at Avenue A and PCH, how they circled around the block to the west of PCH, and then approached her just after she had turned east on Avenue A (on the south side of the street. They stopped and asked her if she wanted to smoke some marijuana with them, and she declined and continued on, crossing to the left side of the street at about Juanita Avenue, They drove up to Prospect Avenue, made a U-turn, and parked facing west on the north side of Avenue A, just west of Prospect. As Cindy was passing the van, Norris grabbed Cindy and dragged her into the van.

The police reports, which Laura has copies of, state that the shoe was found in that exact spot on the day of her disappearance.

Most of what I had thought I knew about the case was based on news stories and documentaries about the case is wrong. But Laura has collected an enormous amount of information about the case. I had thought (and had stated on this thread) that she had walked up Avenue D to Prospect and was picked up on Avenue A - east of Prospect. I have since edited my earlier comment to indicate that she walked north on PCH to Avenue A and was abducted west of Prospect.

Thank you for the info. Very interesting. It feels like most of the information available to the public is wrong or incomplete. We’re having to relearn everything.

I have to revise my earlier statement in accordance to new info. My sister met Lucinda I had said she knew her, not quite accurate. But she told me about meeting her many years ago and it always stuck.

Also if Lucinda walked down PCH and turned east on Avenue A she would’ve had to have started the moment she exited her Grandmothers car at 7:25pm. To make it to Prospect and Ave A by 7:46pm in sandals would be quite an accomplishment.

And 7:46pm sounds more like a police log than a criminal’s confession.

The two girls picked up Labor Day Weekend on Pier Ave in Hermosa were found exactly where N said they’d be. The October girl (no disrespect but I forgot their names) was found by the public. So where’s Cindy? Where’s Andrea? Both disappeared on Sunday’s just a few weeks apart. If the public info is true (and it’s not likely) then Norris would know where those two girls were to be found.

 

[CarlK90245]

The two girls picked up Labor Day Weekend on Pier Ave in Hermosa were found exactly where N said they’d be. The October girl (no disrespect but I forgot their names) was found by the public. So where’s Cindy? Where’s Andrea? Both disappeared on Sunday’s just a few weeks apart. If the public info is true (and it’s not likely) then Norris would know where those two girls were to be found.

That is another bit of information that has been wrong everywhere. Jackie Gilliam and Leah Lamp were intending to go to the Hermosa Beach Pier but never made it anywhere near Pier Avenue. B&N picked them up at a bus stop on the westbound side of Artesia, at Felton Lane, and then drove them to a side street adjacent to some tennis courts near Pollywog Park in Manhattan Beach. That is where Jackie tried to escape and was recaptured by Bittaker. Bittaker told bystanders that she was high on LSD.

There are also tennis courts behind the Hermosa Beach community Center on Pier Avenue, so when it was mentioned that Jackie tried to escape next to some tennis courts, everyone (including I) assumed that those were the tennis courts. That became an incorrect narrative that has been repeated everywhere I've read about that portion of the story.
Steven Kay said that they were lucky to find Jackie and Leah, even given the fact that they knew exactly where to look.
Cindy's and Andrea's bodies were said to be discarded on a very steep hillside next to a fire-road off of Glendora Mountain Road. Jackie and Leah were left in the same vicinity a couple of months later. That couple of months probably was the difference between being able to locate Jackie & Leah, and not being able to find Cindy and Andrea.

The terrain is very steep and overgrown with very rugged vegetation, and scavenging animals roam all over those mountains. A couple of strong rainstorms could very easily wash any bones that remained all the way down the mountain and into the Morris Reservior.

 

[bobbby]

That is another bit of information that has been wrong everywhere. Jackie Gilliam and Leah Lamp were intending to go to the Hermosa Beach Pier but never made it anywhere near Pier Avenue. B&N picked them up at a bus stop on the westbound side of Artesia, at Felton Lane, and then drove them to a side street adjacent to some tennis courts near Pollywog Park in Manhattan Beach. That is where Jackie tried to escape and was recaptured by Bittaker. Bittaker told bystanders that she was high on LSD.

There are also tennis courts behind the Hermosa Beach community Center on Pier Avenue, so when it was mentioned that Jackie tried to escape next to some tennis courts, everyone (including I) assumed that those were the tennis courts. That became an incorrect narrative that has been repeated everywhere I've read about that portion of the story.
Steven Kay said that they were lucky to find Jackie and Leah, even given the fact that they knew exactly where to look.
Cindy's and Andrea's bodies were said to be discarded on a very steep hillside next to a fire-road off of Glendora Mountain Road. Jackie and Leah were left in the same vicinity a couple of months later. That couple of months probably was the difference between being able to locate Jackie & Leah, and not being able to find Cindy and Andrea.

The terrain is very steep and overgrown with very rugged vegetation, and scavenging animals roam all over those mountains. A couple of strong rainstorms could very easily wash any bones that remained all the way down the mountain and into the Morris Reservior.

Great information. I hope your friend can get all these corrections organized and into one place so people can reference it. My goodness it’s like half the public info is just junk. I wish I knew more about Cindy’s story but all I remember is my sister telling me she had met her and that Cindy was very pretty. That’s it.

Was Bynum involved in any of the investigations? From what I have read he seemed like a good guy. RIP.

 

[CarlK90245]

Was Bynum involved in any of the investigations? From what I have read he seemed like a good guy. RIP.

Yes, Paul Bynum was the lead detective in that case. He was very much involved in the investigations.

 

[bobbby]

Yes, Paul Bynum was the lead detective in that case. He was very much involved in the investigations.

Question on the 313 Garnet St.house. Wikipedia says Norris moved in with his mother in Redondo Beach. I’ve read elsewhere that at 313 he lived with his sister. Which is it mother or sister or both?

Also is it disconcerting that 313 Garnet St is next door to a Pre School? Was it a preschool in 1979? A few years later a beach city preschool would make world headlines. Paul Bynum was found deceased in the middle of testifying at that trial.

 

[bobbby]

Ritual Abuse-Torture Within Families/Groups | Office of Justice Programs

www.ojp.gov

There were at least two RATs who attended that church. Perhaps more. They would have known Lucinda’s vulnerabilities even waiting for her mother to leave town. One of them had keys to secure areas of the church being the tape librarian. Imho Cindy never left the Torrance/Redondo area.

 

[chikkyyfox]

Ritual Abuse-Torture Within Families/Groups | Office of Justice Programs

www.ojp.gov

There were at least two RATs who attended that church. Perhaps more. They would have known Lucinda’s vulnerabilities even waiting for her mother to leave town. One of them had keys to secure areas of the church being the tape librarian. Imho Cindy never left the Torrance/Redondo area.

But what about the shoe left behind? You think someone planted it there? I've read that Lawrence Bittaker was a church minister.