Identified! CA - Ludlow, WhtFem UP2517, 17-22, buried, Nov'80 - Pamela Duffey & William Lane *arrest*

[MelmothTheLost]

According to the AA journey planner the distance between Burbank and Ludlow is 167 miles, with an estimated drive time of 2 hours and 30 minutes.

https://www.theaa.com/route-planner...|Ludlow, CA 92338, USA||-116.160012|34.721100

So that's 5 hours for a round trip + (say) 2 hours to find a spot and bury the bodies. At least 7 hours, or most of a day.

And if the couple did die at Corinne's home, wouldn't there be other, much nearer, places to dispose of bodies, eg the Angeles National Forest, where they might never be found?

 

[carbuff]

Thanks, I'd not heard about that. I was under the impression that vaginal or seminal fluids could be wiped up or scrubbed off fairly easily. What sort of carpet materials are stained by sexual fluids?

It sounds like the carpeting in the whole house was replaced, which sounds very unlikely if you find your daughter shagging on the carpet in one room.



This just stinks to high heaven. It sounds much more likely that her father found them, went beserk and killed them and that the body fluid he was worried about was blood. Was this ever looked at seriously by LE? (Rhetorical question, I suspect)

The details on the CharleyProject page really do suggest an entirely different narrative. And 40 years is a long time to stay away without ever contacting any family members. These young people would be well into middle age today.

Incidentally I notice that the CP page includes an additional blurry photo of Corrine which is dated to around 1980. If the date is accurate it shows that she was still very moon-faced close to when she went missing which doesn't seem to tie in at all with LE's estimate of the Doe's weight.

Oh, I don't think anything but murder is at all likely. I was just sort of wistfully hoping for a different ending.

Nearly anything will stain cheap synthetic carpet. Not sure about other kinds. But yeah, blood was probably the problem.

 

[MelmothTheLost]

Oh, I don't think anything but murder is at all likely. I was just sort of wistfully hoping for a different ending.

Yup.

Nearly anything will stain cheap synthetic carpet. Not sure about other kinds. But yeah, blood was probably the problem.

I'm not arguing, merely trying to clarify in my own mind what "stain" means in this context. To me it suggests an indelible colour change, eg if Corinne had been menstruating when she supposedly had sex on the carpet, it's credible that the carpet could have been blood stained as a result. However I'm struggling to understand how clear vaginal fluid and milky semen could cause a permanent colour or other change such that various carpets in the house would have had to be thrown out.

Maybe I'm just over-thinking it.

 

[MelmothTheLost]

Here's Corrine's new Charley Page link: http://charleyproject.org/case/corinne-anita-hagler

Wouldn't some of them have shown up in the remains if it were here? Like her rib fractures and knees?

It depends on which bones survived. There were only partial skeletal remains found. We don't (AFAIK) know how "partial" "partial" is.

 

[MelmothTheLost]

But yeah, blood was probably the problem.

A further thought on this - have we ever heard how soon after the couple's disappearance Corinne's father changed his vehicle? IF he killed them and dumped their bodies, he would presumably be as worried about body fluids in his vehicle as he was about body fluids on the carpets.

 

[carbuff]

Yup.



I'm not arguing, merely trying to clarify in my own mind what "stain" means in this context. To me it suggests an indelible colour change, eg if Corinne had been menstruating when she supposedly had sex on the carpet, it's credible that the carpet could have been blood stained as a result. However I'm struggling to understand how clear vaginal fluid and milky semen could cause a permanent colour or other change such that various carpets in the house would have had to be thrown out.

Maybe I'm just over-thinking it.

It gets in the fibers and causes dirt to collect. And there's a smell.

I hope you're not going to ask me how I know this [emoji39]

Whether blood or sexual fluids, I doubt if it was all over the house. He probably thought it would be less suspicious to change everything.

We should probably take this to Corinne's thread.

Sent from my SM-T560NU using Tapatalk

 

[Alleykins]

OT:
You crack me up, Carbuff.

 

[MelmothTheLost]

It gets in the fibers and causes dirt to collect. And there's a smell.

I hope you're not going to ask me how I know this [emoji39]

Too right I'm not. TMI methinks ....

:scared:

 

[MelmothTheLost]

This is one of several cases that I've flagged up to the DNA Doe Project, the others being Sand Canyon John Doe and Bibb County John Doe (http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/2844umal.html).

 

[Peppered_peach]

The teeth look really close to Theresa Fittins’ in my opinion. They both have dna submitted so I think the system would have matched them. Check out the black and white picture of her in the image section, teeth are really close.

https://www.findthemissing.org/en/cases/6061/512/

 

[cvaldez1975]

i dont see her body as being very large. she has chubby cheeks that's it.

You know, that photo almost proves to me that the Doe is not Corrine.

I don't know how LE determined the Doe's weight, given that there were only partial skeletal remains, but if they are right her BMI was 19.1 - ie at the lower end of the healthy range. Corrine is clearly significantly overweight in that most recent photo, maybe even obese. Short of catastrophic illness I don't see how Corrine could have lost that much weight in only a few months.

 

[cvaldez1975]

yea I made that observation upthread as well.

Thanks, I'd not heard about that. I was under the impression that vaginal or seminal fluids could be wiped up or scrubbed off fairly easily. What sort of carpet materials are stained by sexual fluids?

It sounds like the carpeting in the whole house was replaced, which sounds very unlikely if you find your daughter shagging on the carpet in one room.



This just stinks to high heaven. It sounds much more likely that her father found them, went beserk and killed them and that the body fluid he was worried about was blood. Was this ever looked at seriously by LE? (Rhetorical question, I suspect)

The details on the CharleyProject page really do suggest an entirely different narrative. And 40 years is a long time to stay away without ever contacting any family members. These young people would be well into middle age today.

Incidentally I notice that the CP page includes an additional blurry photo of Corrine which is dated to around 1980. If the date is accurate it shows that she was still very moon-faced close to when she went missing which doesn't seem to tie in at all with LE's estimate of the Doe's weight.

 

[Moosebegoose]

http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/1376ufca.html

Date of Discovery: November 17, 1980
Location of Discovery: Ludlow, San Bernardino County, California
Estimated Date of Death: 1-6 months prior
State of Remains: Skeletal
Cause of Death: Unknown
[h=2]Physical Description[/h]Estimated Age: 17-22 years old
Race: White
Sex: Female
Height: 5'5" to 5'8"
Weight: 115 lbs.
Hair Color: Red, light brown and/or blond
Eye Color: Unknown
Distinguishing Marks/Features: Left ear (at least) pierced.
[h=2]Identifiers[/h]Dentals: Available. "Highly distinctive" smile with several gaps between her teeth. Congenitally missing lateral incisors and a retained primary right canine.
Fingerprints: Not available.
DNA: Available.
[h=2]Clothing & Personal Items[/h]Clothing: Unknown.
Jewelry: Yellow metal, 10-K, size 7 ring, with 7 glass stones, center glass stone missing.
Additional Personal Items: Unknown.
[h=2]Circumstances of Discovery[/h]The remains of this female, along with 3068UMCA were found in a shallow grave in the desert, about 5 miles east of Ludlow, California on November 17, 1980. She may possibly have been a nurse.
[h=2]Investigating Agency(s)[/h]Agency Name: San Bernardino County Sheriff Department - Coroner Division
Agency Contact Person: Robert Hunter
Agency Phone Number: 1-909-387-2978
Agency E-Mail: N/A
Agency Case Number: 56773
NCIC Case Number: U817620466
NamUs Case Number: 2517
NCMEC Case Number: 1184222
Former Hot Case Number: 1278

I believe this could be Cecile Frances Moch who went missing in San Bernadino County on August 7 1980. I will shortly be submitting her to Doe Network.

Cecile's Doe Network Profile: http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/3866dfca.html

I see similarities in the hair, face and possibly the teeth as it appears Cecile did not show them much.

 

[Moosebegoose]

Unfortunately Doe Network has already got back to me and said there is no chance of matching her as she has no DNA, Dentals etc. to compare her to. ​

 

[cvaldez1975]

sadly, we have an idea of who she may be but there is no way to make a match or comparison

Unfortunately Doe Network has already got back to me and said there is no chance of matching her as she has no DNA, Dentals etc. to compare her to. ​

 

[Alleykins]

Why can't they get a DNA sample for Cecile? Was she adopted or does she not have any family left?

 

[carbuff]

Why can't they get a DNA sample for Cecile? Was she adopted or does she not have any family left?

No idea why. Maybe CarlK knows?

 

[theshadow45]

The Ludlow Does have been unidentified for 38 years as of yesterday.

 

[carbuff]

Ludlow Jane's updated Namus link: Unidentified Person Case

There are three exclusions: Rebecca Dunn, Alma Root, and Lucinda Schaeffer. And it says she has DNA.

Ludlow John's updated Namus: Unidentified Person Case

He also has DNA and no exclusions listed.

 

[LucyOso]

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