GUILTY CA - Madyson Middleton, 8, Santa Cruz, 26 July 2015 - #3 *Arrest*

[human]

He is a depraved killer. There is something seriously out of whack.

I hope they examine everything about him.

 

[Lilibet]

He is a depraved killer. There is something seriously out of whack.

I hope they examine everything about him.

I think that's something we all agree on, for sure.

 

[human]

I cannot tell you how many times I heard that a kid is horrible from the parents.

The parents never thought to look at their own selves. What were they doing? Drinking, doing drugs, having boyfriends or girlfriends over and over again, for instance.

When a child is in trouble, the whole family should go in for counseling. Mandatory.

 

[AmyPond]

For now, I cannot in good conscience put any blame on her parents. As things come out...I could always change my mind though. I googled that Austin Sigg person mentioned earlier and read a bit about that case and I certainly blame his mom for not getting him proper help. If things like that come out in the case...I may have similar feelings.

But yeah...for now, I just don't know anything at all about his home life so I can't really place blame on anyone but AJG.

 

[T4Tide]

I am curious and would really appreciate input here. What are WS members thoughts regarding parental blame for this? I know we have talked about nature vs nurture, but I would like raw opinions void any politically correct opinions. If a child is actively engaged with their parents, is the child able to deceive them, or are the parents refusing to acknowledge the problem?

As I have stated before, I have personal experience of a monster in my family. I know I may be jaded but my opinion is the parents of this particular monster ignored every warning that MIGHT have stopped their son and never chose to get any help because of embarrassment. I hope you guys can indulge me here because every time a case like this comes up, I find myself wondering whether I am too judgmental of the family or not enough.

Personally, I don't think every case is exactly the same. I don't see AG like I see Adam Lanza. We forget that parents see their children through rose colored glasses....AKA the Love Filter. Honestly, if AG had not committed this crime, I wouldn't think suspicious about him at all. His SM looks like many a kid out there. Milder, even. I remember being absolutely shocked at Sierra Lamar's SM, and she was the innocent victim. AG, without the crime, seems like a pretty decent kid. Artistic, musically talented, camp counselor, crushing on a girl at school, healthy teenage boy. Like many have said here....all those photo captions are song quotes and kids do that a lot. I doubt his mother even looked at his IG, but if she did, she would see it completely different than the way we see it post murder. Spooky piano piece on murder day? She'd probably say..."I'm glad those piano lessons paid off." Ice cream video? She might think, "Awww...my little guy sure does love when I buy those." Some have mentioned that the yoyo-ing was weird. She may think, "I'm glad Uncle Dave spent the time teaching AJ to yoyo." (Just a hypothesis.....there's no Dave.)

I think parents can absolutely ignore warning signs or even be blind to them. How many wives are deceived by their husbands when the rest of the town knows? What about my fellow WSers? Did you do things that your parents didn't know about and would think you never would have done that? I know I did. (NOT murder, FYI.)

AG's mom has honestly probably stayed very busy just putting a roof over his head, food on the table, helping with homework, etc. If he had never given her a reason to believe otherwise, she probably very much trusted him. Her response when he was arrested and the days following tell me that she very much was blindsided by her own flesh and blood's actions. Her pain and disbelief were obvious.

It might come out through the trial that there were more ominous warning signs. I don't know. But my first instinct is to believe that most parents view their child in a different light than the rest of the world, as well as their children portray themselves in a different light to their parents. I can't judge or condemn her right now. Two mothers are severely hurting and forever changed in this situation.

 

[perfectingpink]

I hear you and I know it's a temptation to always blame the parents, but I think it is often much more complex than that. Unless there is clear evidence (like buying guns for your disturbed son as in Sandy Hook or turning a deaf ear to a teacher's concerns, for example), I don't feel comfortable blaming parents. And even when there are obvious mental health issues with a kid, it can be extremely difficult to get proper help.

I do believe that it is possible for kids to deceive their parents, even when there is good communication, and active involvement. In my experience as a teen and as the mother of one (30 years ago) teens do successfully shut their caring parents out of certain parts of their lives. It doesn't have to be anything serious, but, of course, it can be. Most good parents give their teens some privacy. And teens can be very good at stonewalling when parents try to communicate.

Sometimes, the red flags are so obvious that it seems as if a parent has either been truly ignorant and clueless or has deliberately let things slide for whatever reason. We have no way of knowing whether Adrian was able to reassure his Mom that he was just posting and saying stuff, and didn't really feel the way his Instagram portrayed him or the way he talked to his friend about suicide. She appears to be a very hard-working, busy and social extrovert. Put that together with cultural and language differences, and I can see that she may not have been able to fully discern problems. She may have just chalked up subtle signs to teen angst and an awkward personality. The whole community seems to have thought highly of her son.

For now, I really feel horrible for her, and it seems that Maddy's Mom does too. JMO

I appreciate your reply! I can see how it might be difficult to discern between tween angst and a child that is capable of harming another, weaker person. Because of the history of the family I come from, I was hyper vigilant of my children; which I thank God turned out very well. (All of my children were born before "the monster in my family" acted, but because of history, I was attentive). So, I guess if there are no other warning signs outside of socially awkward boy, I can definitely see how it can be overlooked. With that said, I do hope the mother and anyone else who knows AG is open and honest about any previous behavior ie: harming animals, stalking etc.

 

[MsFacetious]

Her mother's wonderfully compassionate and full of grace attitude just makes me think of what a wonderful young lady and woman Madyson would likely become. It's just too sad.

Exactly, the world needs more people like Madyson's Mom. :twocents:

 

[T4Tide]

I cannot tell you how many times I heard that a kid is horrible from the parents.

The parents never thought to look at their own selves. What were they doing? Drinking, doing drugs, having boyfriends or girlfriends over and over again, for instance.

When a child is in trouble, the whole family should go in for counseling. Mandatory.

I know many a really great patent whose kid just went haywire. Influences that affect behavior can come from many outside avenues, as well, no matter how much a parent loves, instructs, disciplines, and advises.

My uncle put my very wonderful grandparents through some rough times.

I do, however, think those cases are the minority.

 

[perfectingpink]

I cannot tell you how many times I heard that a kid is horrible from the parents.

The parents never thought to look at their own selves. What were they doing? Drinking, doing drugs, having boyfriends or girlfriends over and over again, for instance.

When a child is in trouble, the whole family should go in for counseling. Mandatory.

I do think when a child is in trouble, the whole family is in trouble and needs guidance. I can only speak from my knowledge that what you say here is the exact thing I saw happening in my extended family; the entire family unit was a horrid mess and they were too embarrassed to seek help. Of course, the "mess" started a generation before so I cannot pinpoint the beginning... I guess all I can do is thank God for my mother. I have said for a few centuries now that the best thing she did for me and my sister was divorce my father.

 

[Lilibet]

I appreciate your reply! I can see how it might be difficult to discern between tween angst and a child that is capable of harming another, weaker person. Because of the history of the family I come from, I was hyper vigilant of my children; which I thank God turned out very well. (All of my children were born before "the monster in my family" acted, but because of history, I was attentive). So, I guess if there are no other warning signs outside of socially awkward boy, I can definitely see how it can be overlooked. With that said, I do hope the mother and anyone else who knows AG is open and honest about any previous behavior ie: harming animals, stalking etc.

BBM

I do think we often (and rightly) look through the lens our family history. My Dad was an alcoholic, so I watched myself for those tendencies and cautioned our daughter about her possible heredity (on her paternal grandfather's side too). None of us inherited it, thank goodness. But I understand being hyper vigilant.

It's certainly possible that his Mom and others who knew and observed him will remember and report odd actions in retrospect that meant little at the time. I sometimes have a "funny feeling" about someone (even children) and I can't quite put my finger on the reason. I always try to give people the benefit of the doubt, so I store the feeling away in the back of my mind and don't go looking for evidence to prove it. Usually I forget all about it. But almost invariably, even years later, the person will do something quite wrong (and rather surprising) that confirms that my gut feeling was right. I'm usually surprised until I start looking at the "evidence" I ignored over the years in my effort to be kind. I think that will happen in this case. JMO

 

[perfectingpink]

BBM

I do think we often (and rightly) look through the lens our family history. My Dad was an alcoholic, so I watched myself for those tendencies and cautioned our daughter about her possible heredity (on her paternal grandfather's side too). None of us inherited it, thank goodness. But I understand being hyper vigilant.

It's certainly possible that his Mom and others who knew and observed him will remember and report odd actions in retrospect that meant little at the time. I sometimes have a "funny feeling" about someone (even children) and I can't quite put my finger on the reason. I always try to give people the benefit of the doubt, so I store the feeling away in the back of my mind and don't go looking for evidence to prove it. Usually I forget all about it. But almost invariably, even years later, the person will do something quite wrong (and rather surprising) that confirms that my gut feeling was right. I'm usually surprised until I start looking at the "evidence" I ignored over the years in my effort to be kind. I think that will happen in this case. JMO

I wish there was some formula in which we could input data that would give a definitive answer to whether someone will do unspeakable things. I also wish when parents have certain data, they would choose to be honest and be able to cast aside the wrongful stigma of mental illness and seek help.

 

[human]

I think there are plenty of things that indicate that there may be problems in children because of home life.

Being shamed and belittled, for instance is a big indicator of problems. There is plenty of information out there, but people choose to ignore it

 

[Mamamerced]

I am curious and would really appreciate input here. What are WS members thoughts regarding parental blame for this? I know we have talked about nature vs nurture, but I would like raw opinions void any politically correct opinions. If a child is actively engaged with their parents, is the child able to deceive them, or are the parents refusing to acknowledge the problem?

As I have stated before, I have personal experience of a monster in my family. I know I may be jaded but my opinion is the parents of this particular monster ignored every warning that MIGHT have stopped their son and never chose to get any help because of embarrassment. I hope you guys can indulge me here because every time a case like this comes up, I find myself wondering whether I am too judgmental of the family or not enough.

I think if a parent is emotionally connected to the child then the parent might be deceived a few times, but not over the long run. A genuinely connected parent would know when something was "off" in their own child. MOO, of course.

 

[Sillybilly]

Let's stick to discussing the known facts of this case and not speculate or generalize about unknown parenting skills or abilities.

:tyou:

 

[human]

How does this seem?

http://www.mercurynews.com/crime-courts/ci_28566114/teens-turbulent-family-life-and-death-santa-cruz

 

[bluesneakers]

How does this seem?

http://www.mercurynews.com/crime-courts/ci_28566114/teens-turbulent-family-life-and-death-santa-cruz

Lots of information and lots to think about. Thank you for sharing.

Slight OT maybe: i'm happy places like the Tannery exist. Strikes me as a special place.

 

[Lilibet]

How does this seem?

http://www.mercurynews.com/crime-courts/ci_28566114/teens-turbulent-family-life-and-death-santa-cruz

I'm not exactly sure what your question means, but it seems like a kid who had a chaotic and dysfunctional childhood. Mom and Dad made some very poor choices and set a lousy example, if this article is factual. There have been plenty of kids who had worse situations and didn't kidnap, rape and murder. I suppose there have been kids from exemplary families who did. While poor parenting doesn't create stable kids, I don't think it's possible to say that poor parenting is the direct and only cause for his heinous actions at this point, or probably ever. His Mom is not a monster and did not deliberately set out to create a monster. But that's what he is. I doubt she will ever forgive herself. JMO

 

[1&2&3]

Too many times parents ignore what their small children are doing. Children learn to play their parents at an early age. I am observing a family as their 10 month old child plays them but knows it won't work on me. They are smart little munchkins.

With each stage, the actions change as does the awareness of how a parent needs to handle it. Some parents choose to laugh at it, ignore it, deny its occurrence, or correct it. Many think "oh they are small, it is cute and they will grow out of it". Wrong. They will only grow into a stage that takes more discipline and cannot be ignored.

Plus, one must throw in the varying factors in parent's relationships, whether married, single, divorced, or widowed. Job changes cause another big influence on the attention available for a developing child. And the beginning and end of all conversations - money.

When all these points are added together, too often a child is not the top priority. Particularly a child who has an undiagnosed problem that is not readily acknowledgeable. As the years pass, the child becomes more left behind due to the undiagnosed problem. He/she has learned to hide behind the mask of pretending to do the right behaviors. Then, in a minute, they become a wicked evil person! Why? What causes the sudden change?

ETA: Wow, after posting this, I read a few news articles from several days ago. Was floored when reading the one discussing the hard times AJG and his mother has lived that included the factors discussed above.
http://www.mercurynews.com/crime-courts/ci_28566114/teens-turbulent-family-life-and-death-santa-cruz

 

[catswhiskers]

Does anyone else feel as though we are gradually seeing more socially inept or awkward young people acting out in really violent or frightening ways these days? In combination with generally not fitting in with peers, it seems to me as though perceived rejection by girls is a huge factor as well, in addition to some mental health issues no doubt - and that this is enough to tip some of these young folks over the edge and into really dark places (thinking about not only Jessica Ridgeway's killer, but also that student who ran amok in Santa Barbara last year)
Before his name was revealed I saw AJG's pics on the art group pages and had a feeling he was a misfit - he just seemed too old and big to be spending his vacations in art groups with younger kids. I wonder if he was there because he was restricted from hanging out with his own peers by his parents, or because he wasn't connecting with peers himself.
I'm thinking that this sort of isolation, and too much time immersed in video games and god knows what online, gives these kids a pretty warped sense of what to expect from relationships, and sex - especially at a time when both seem so important. These kids involved in mass shootings and awful vengeful, cold blooded murders - does it seem like it's becoming more prevalent or are we just privy to more and more details about them today?

All a bit random, sorry - I'm a mum of 2 teenage boys who thankfully seem fairly self assured, social and sporty. But this kind of thing makes me look at them and wonder if they are really doing ok?

 

[tlcya]

Mothers of Santa Cruz defendant, victim share their pain
http://www.sfgate.com/crime/article/Mothers-of-Santa-Cruz-suspect-victim-share-their-6420581.php

Jordan heard crying near the memorial for her daughter at the Tannery Art Center courtyard. There, in front of dozens of bouquets, loving cards, stuffed animals and candles, she saw Reggie Factor, Gonzalez’s mother, on her knees, inconsolable. Factor wailed, cried to God and screamed that her son was a bad boy, a terrible boy, Jordan said. Why hadn’t anyone told her? How could she not have known?

Thank you for posting this, I had not read it.

What is striking is the amount of empathy, dignity and grace this mother was able to show to another, in such a sorrowful time for both of them. The two mothers are inextricably tied now by this event. Both have lost a child in different ways. Both trying to wrap their minds around how their own lives have changed forever.

Madyson's momma has my utmost respect and admiration for this act.