CA - Off Duty Police Officer shoots man and parents after altercation in Costco, Corona, June 2019

[Curiousobserver]

Officers statements lead to no charges being filed in previous high profile LAPD shooting of unarmed civilians

DA: No charges against LAPD officers in shooting of newspaper carriers during Dorner manhunt – Daily Breeze

The office in question was at this scene and gave a statement but did not fire his weapon

 

[SuziQ]

I would think the person shooting in a crowded place would be a danger to everyone around that person.

i think you are confusing victim and perp.

 

[Jessthinkin]

This New York Times article is the first I’ve seen with an eyewitness account (from ten feet away) of the (off duty) officer falling down, hard.
Here’s the link:
Costco Shooting Leaves Family of Man Killed by Off-Duty Officer Demanding Answers

 

[Eclipse]

Exactly what I thought about most of the articles only biased mostly one way. They use the off-duty cops version as gospel truth. No qualifier like "alledgedly" (sp?)

To me it will matter if the gun is fired when Mr. French is attacking or aggressively coming toward the shooter or if the attack had subsided.

 

[jjenny]

i think you are confusing victim and perp.

Not at all. I wouldn't care to be in that store if cop started firing multiple shots, whether he believed it be in self-defense or not. Would you have liked to be nearby? We already know he shot three people, when only one reportedly attacked him. Again, how many extra people do you think someone should be allowed to shoot in self-defense when being attacked by one person?

 

[kaen]

Until we know more and see the tape, I don't think we can get to any answers. I can say that I am really tired and saddened by the number of victims of police involved shootings who have mental illness or disability. There has to be something that can be done to increase awareness of the issues some with mental illness or intellectual disability face.

 

[SuziQ]

I am shocked that there are no witnesses all over LA television.

So am I. This is such a hot topic, maybe no one wants to wade in.

 

[Jessthinkin]

So am I. This is such a hot topic, maybe no one wants to wade in.

There’s a witness quoted in this NYTimes article:
Costco Shooting Leaves Family of Man Killed by Off-Duty Officer Demanding Answers

 

[fannneee]

To me it will matter if the gun is fired when Mr. French is attacking or aggressively coming toward the shooter or if the attack had subsided.

Agreed. And one thing that bothers me is that there are multiple people saying there was an argument. That the father was explaining the younger French's issues. If the younger French was non verbal it could not have been him argueing. Was the off-duty cop arguing so agressively with the Dad that the younger French felt his father was threatened and defended his father by knocking down the off-duty cop? MOO

 

[SuziQ]

Not at all. I wouldn't care to be in that store if cop started firing multiple shots, whether he believed it be in self-defense or not. Would you have liked to be nearby? We already know he shot three people, when only one reportedly attacked him. Again, how many extra people do you think someone should be allowed to shoot in self-defense when being attacked by one person?

It depends on the situation. Which we have no idea what happened. We don't know what the parents did after their son got shot. Did they react angrily? Dunno.

 

[Jessthinkin]

Agreed. And one thing that bothers me is that there are multiple people saying there was an argument. That the father was explaining the younger French's issues. If the younger French was non verbal it could not have been him argueing. Was the off-duty cop arguing so agressively with the Dad that the younger French felt his father was threatened and defended his father by knocking down the off-duty cop? MOO

Check out this eyewitness account:
Costco Shooting Leaves Family of Man Killed by Off-Duty Officer Demanding Answers

 

[SuziQ]

Until we know more and see the tape, I don't think we can get to any answers. I can say that I am really tired and saddened by the number of victims of police involved shootings who have mental illness or disability. There has to be something that can be done to increase awareness of the issues some with mental illness or intellectual disability face.

Unless we make mentally ill people wear a scarlet letter, there is no way to tell by looking at them. In a fast moving situation, there's no time to ask someone about there mental health issues and de escalate.

 

[jjenny]

Check out this eyewitness account:
Costco Shooting Leaves Family of Man Killed by Off-Duty Officer Demanding Answers

Thanks for that. So according to that eyewitness, the cop was able to stand up before he started firing. Witness was scared for her life at that point, which is my point exactly.

 

[jjenny]

Unless we make mentally ill people wear a scarlet letter, there is no way to tell by looking at them. In a fast moving situation, there's no time to ask someone about there mental health issues and de escalate.

I am not sure what exactly needed deescalating. After cop was shoved/pushed and fell to the ground, he apparently stood up and started firing. What was he in danger of in that point is unclear to me.

 

[SuziQ]

To me it will matter if the gun is fired when Mr. French is attacking or aggressively coming toward the shooter or if the attack had subsided.

that's how I feel as well.

 

[Jessthinkin]

Thanks for that. So according to that eyewitness, the cop was able to stand up before he started firing. Witness was scared for her life at that point, which is my point exactly.

I agree with you that the information released so far is incomplete, and video is sorely needed, to get a fuller picture of all the precedents, antecedents, proximity, etc.

 

[jjenny]

Agreed. And one thing that bothers me is that there are multiple people saying there was an argument. That the father was explaining the younger French's issues. If the younger French was non verbal it could not have been him argueing. Was the off-duty cop arguing so agressively with the Dad that the younger French felt his father was threatened and defended his father by knocking down the off-duty cop? MOO

That's not the sequence of events as far as I can tell. As far as I understand it, there was no argument before the officer was shoved or pushed.

 

[Jessthinkin]

I am not sure what exactly needed deescalating. After cop was shoved/pushed and fell to the ground, he apparently stood up and started firing. What was he in danger of in that point is unclear to me.

Maybe it looked like whomever assaulted him was now going after his wife or child or (?) I agree this all sounds very hinky and terrible and thank goodness there does seem to be video, even if it’s not released yet...

 

[kaen]

Unless we make mentally ill people wear a scarlet letter, there is no way to tell by looking at them. In a fast moving situation, there's no time to ask someone about there mental health issues and de escalate.

Respectfully, there are multiple officer involved shootings where the issues of the person is known. In this instance the father of the dead man was telling the shooter that his son had mental illness. There is always time to deescalate if you know a person has issues as long as they are not harming someone else--- you can take a breath and begin to think. Grant it, someone may not be able to be calmed and may become a danger to others or the officers. There have been families who called 911 for help and saw/heard their loved one killed when officers rushed in. It is time for some new training.

Mishandling mental health crises to blame for spike in officer-involved shootings | National Center on Disability and Journalism

Police Call Fatal Officer-Involved Shooting Of Mentally Ill Walnut Creek Man 'Tragic'

Center for Problem Oriented Policing People with Mental Illness | Center for Problem-Oriented Policing

U of Chicago Pilot Program: Police Need to Work More with Mental Health Professionals | University of Chicago - SSA “This puts a huge burden on police officers,” said Harold Pollack, the Helen Ross Professor at the University of Chicago School of Social Service Administration (SSA) and co-director of the University’s Crime Lab. Pollack and SSA doctoral student Tonie Sadler organized the “Keep Calm and Evaluate: The Crisis Intervention Pilot program as a Case Study on Program Evaluation” on January 8 at SSA.

I work with young people with mental illness and have been in numerous hairy situations that could have escalated. I know how hard it is to de-escalate. But for people with mental illness or intellectual disabilities, they cannot think as fast or nimbly as needed for an officer's split second reaction to their illness. In 911 calls, officers do have options. In this situation, a moment of reflection would have saved one or (potentially) more lives. IMO.

Edited to add: links to studies and MSM on evaluative options in policing.

 

[Jessthinkin]

That's not the sequence of events as far as I can tell. As far as I understand it, there was no argument before the officer was shoved or pushed.

I do believe the account that says the officer was struck from behind, in the head. It must’ve been a pretty strong blow to the head to cause him to fall down “hard, looking like he was having a heart attack” (per an eyewitness).
Costco Shooting Leaves Family of Man Killed by Off-Duty Officer Demanding Answers