CANADA Canada - Audrey Gleave, 73, Ancaster ON, 30 Dec 2010 #4

[roseofsharon]

when posting, got the message: Sorry, this thread is close!

:christmastree::crush::cheer::loveyou::tyou: Salem!! :blowkiss:


Thank you for finding this Stone. As I posted on thread #1, I had wondered if DSL's being arrested for having a knife had actually been a blessing for him, meaning that might have provided him with the best alibi, thus excluding him once the autopsy results were in.

I have also been wondering why the murderer(s) closed the garage door on his/her/their way out -- one answer provided here was that perhaps the perp(s) wanted to delay A's body from being found, thus giving him/her/they time to get away. Did the perp(s) actually thought someone was going to drive up to Audrey's in the next 30 minutes or so? How long would it take for the murderer(s) to drive/run/walk away?



IMO, closing the garage door has another purpose, :waitasec: but what could it be?

• Could it be delaying the onset of rigor mortis? (We know the onset of rigor mortis is more rapid if the environment is cold). Why would the perp(s) want this? So the estimated time of death is pushed closer to the time of discovery?
• Or they wanted the delay so the pathologist would not be able to pinpoint with exactitude Audrey's estimated time of death.

What kind of DNA has LE recovered from the scene? So far I cannot recall LE mentioning 'semen' was found, so I'm thinking could it be possible DSL was ruled out because he was in custody when the crime was committed? If DSL was ruled out based on DNA, would that DNA that LE recovered came from semen? I would imagine LE would have already compared that DNA with PK's as well.

I really REALLY hope LE does know when the attack took place, and have a good timeline of events. Pleas LE solve this case, and put the monster away for good!

Hazel, respectfully, I read that rigor is slowed down in colder temperatures.

Also, just wondering about these possibilities ...

- killer enters through door, exits through garage
- killer enters through door, exits through door
- killer enters through garage, exits through garage
- killer enters through window, exits through door

I don't think killer would have taken the chance of leaving through the garage door, which to me reinforces the belief killer knew AG and the entire layout of her home.

just imo

Just an added thought -- if the killer was a stranger, who randomly knocked on AG's door for whatever reason, would she have answered her door and allowed the stranger to enter her home through the door or would she have said, go to my garage and I'll let you in. Then again, I don't think AG would have crated her dogs unless it was a known caller.

 

[roseofsharon]

I think this is it! Of course, it is open to interpretation my interpretation was and still is that it only takes a push of a button to close the garage door from the outside. So yeah, this is were I got the idea that the "keypad" might contain a 'close-door button".
Let's see what other posters come up with....how do you guys interpret this to mean:

So PK called AG on December 25 to see how she was feeling. When did AG first start to feel under the weather? I thought she starting feeling ill on Boxing Day at LAV's. According to this link, it sounds like AG wasn't feeling the greatest before Christmas, but yet she still went to LAV's for Boxing Day. I am surprised that AG would have gone to LAV's with an active viral infection and thought she started coming down with something at LAV's.

 

[roseofsharon]

Those are some answers I found on the net: I'm still laughing at justatho... 's answer :silly: http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20081210130428AAShLmR

Not to come off as sarcastic, but AG's forte was science -- she would have known she was defeating the purpose.

Another added thought -- did it appear to LE that the aluminum foil was old and faded or did it look like it had been recently applied to the glass.

 

[Woodland]

Good point roseofsharon - I made a note of that the other day. The first time AG's illness over Christmas appears is in a post by lilymcbloom quoting 'suzie' a mutual friend of AG, LAV and lily....

LAV invited AG, suzie and few more people over on 23 December 2010 - according to 'suzie' it was a given that AG would be a no show due to the guest list. AG apparently pleaded illness and would not be there. Looking at the whole picture now, imo, if this is true it could have been staged - why would LAV subject her 30 year friend to an ordeal she would be comfortable with? Repeat - imo as this time-frame is where PK appears to 'choke' in a video news-clip immediately following the funeral.

Where was AG from 23 - 25 December 2010? We only know from LAV (through LE? PK?) that AG was at LAV's on 26 December, and then LAV delivered soup on 27 December am to AG's residence.

Then we have various e-mails where the time line could be disputed.

The soup delivery and what happened after that has my curiosity. Jmo.

 

[Hazel]

Hazel, respectfully, I read that rigor is slowed down in colder temperatures I think you are right rose, If I'm reading it correctly high temp = fastest onset but shortest duration (read more down)

I don't think killer would have taken the chance of leaving through the garage door, which to me reinforces the belief killer knew AG and the entire layout of her home. Hmmm, Rose, you just made me realize that all this time, I had been imagining the attack taking place with the garage door(s) opened! Could the doors had been closed while AG was attacked and murdered??

just imo

Just an added thought -- if the killer was a stranger, who randomly knocked on AG's door for whatever reason, would she have answered her door and allowed the stranger to enter her home through the door or would she have said, go to my garage and I'll let you in. Then again, I don't think AG would have crated her dogs unless it was a known caller. ITA

You made me go google RM (not a nice subject to read about, I must add )

It is actually much more complicated to determine time of death, than I thought!
It is not only ONSET but also DURATION that has to be taken into consideration.
Add to that other contributing factors that may delay or slow down the onset of RG and duration like:

• temperature
• age
• body muscular mass
• Generalized infections
• long, debilitating diseases
• extensive antemortem bleeding
• etc.

Temperature of the environment - High temperatures both accelerates the onset of rigor mortis and shortens its duration;
if the temperature is below 10°C, development of rigor mortis is considered rare.
http://h2g2.com/dna/h2g2/A2451683

The onset of rigor mortis is more rapid if the environment is cold and if the decedent had performed hard physical work just before death.
Its onset also varies with the individual's age, sex, physical condition, and muscular build.
http://www.deathreference.com/Py-Se/Rigor-Mortis-and-Other-Postmortem-Changes.html

Higher temperatures shorten the time till the onset of rigor mortis and its time of duration
http://www.enotes.com/time-death-reference/time-death

Rigor mortis, or postmortem stiffening and contraction of all muscles, usually occurs three or more hours after death and can last for approximately 36–48 hours in temperate climates and about 9–12 hours in tropical temperatures.

If a murderer moves a body before rigor mortis (RM), the new position will be "frozen" during RM, not the original one that would have characterized the pattern of the body falling at the crime scene. Therefore, the position a body shows during rigor mortis cannot be assumed as the position in which the victim was at the moment of death.

The rigor mortis phase is not the best time for the pathologist to determine the cause of death, because several changes take place in the internal muscles, such as the heart and the ocular muscles, which can be misleading. For example, rigor mortis dilates the myocardial (heart) muscles, giving it the appearance of cardiac hypertrophy (enlarged heart). Contraction of the iris muscles also dilates the pupils during rigor mortis.

The factors that interfere with the onset and duration of rigor mortis are temperature, existing antemortem pathologies, age, body muscular mass, and the degree of muscular activity immediately before death. Higher temperatures shorten the time till the onset of rigor mortis and its time of duration. A strong fight or lengthy physical effort before death causes an earlier onset and shorter duration of rigor mortis.

Children and older adults have also earlier rigor mortis than younger adults. Generalized infections, or long, debilitating diseases also produce earlier onsets and shorter periods of rigor mortis, whereas extensive antemortem bleeding or death due to asphyxia delays rigor mortis onset.

 

[Hazel]

Good point roseofsharon - I made a note of that the other day. The first time AG's illness over Christmas appears is in a post by lilymcbloom quoting 'suzie' a mutual friend of AG, LAV and lily....

LAV invited AG, suzie and few more people over on 23 December 2010 - according to 'suzie' it was a given that AG would be a no show due to the guest list. AG apparently pleaded illness and would not be there. Looking at the whole picture now, imo, if this is true it could have been staged - why would LAV subject her 30 year friend to an ordeal she would be comfortable with? Repeat - imo as this time-frame is where PK appears to 'choke' in a video news-clip immediately following the funeral.

Where was AG from 23 - 25 December 2010? We only know from LAV (through LE? PK?) that AG was at LAV's on 26 December, and then LAV delivered soup on 27 December am to AG's residence.

Then we have various e-mails where the time line could be disputed.

The soup delivery and what happened after that has my curiosity. Jmo.

Woodland, I think you are onto something....I've been thinking along those lines too, but then I get lost and confused. If only LE would give us confirmation about the e-mail that was 'supposedly' sent by AG canceling the coffee reunion. Was that the last email from AG's computer? or did the last e-mail from her computer was the one to Mrs. F. containing the AG song?

From PK's e-mail, we get a glimpse of how AG would let people know about her plans for the day....she told PK she was expecting LV to bring her soup, and that she was not going to miss the Wed. coffee, etc.
That e-mail must be legit, because it was sent early Monday morning, she was later seen by both LV and the Vet. E-mail timestamps cannot be altered.

So, did she tell someone else about her plans of attending her Wed. coffee group, and that PK was bringing her the Stollen bundt cake on Thursday?

:seeya: Valleyboy! please come join us

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

So PK called AG on December 25 to see how she was feeling. When did AG first start to feel under the weather? I thought she starting feeling ill on Boxing Day at LAV's. According to this link, it sounds like AG wasn't feeling the greatest before Christmas, but yet she still went to LAV's for Boxing Day. I am surprised that AG would have gone to LAV's with an active viral infection and thought she started coming down with something at LAV's.

I asked (sort of) this question a while back!

1. Just HOW ILL was AG?

2. Simply a cold?

3. Or influenza and/or pneumonia?

4. Had she been recently diagnosed with something potentially fatal?

5. PK said that AG took no prescription meds - *I* find that odd for anyone over 50.

6. Did AG see a doctor during this time of illness? If so, who?

7. Did she at least phone the pharmacy for some OTC stuff? (Fever reducers, cough suppressants, etc.)

Again......many questions...... :cup::hen: :countsheep:

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

Woodland, I think you are onto something....I've been thinking along those lines too, but then I get lost and confused. If only LE would give us confirmation about the e-mail that was 'supposedly' sent by AG canceling the coffee reunion. Was that the last email from AG's computer? or did the last e-mail from her computer was the one to Mrs. F. containing the AG song?

From PK's e-mail, we get a glimpse of how AG would let people know about her plans for the day....she told PK she was expecting LV to bring her soup, and that she was not going to miss the Wed. coffee, etc.
That e-mail must be legit, because it was sent early Monday morning, she was later seen by both LV and the Vet. E-mail timestamps cannot be altered.

So, did she tell someone else about her plans of attending her Wed. coffee group, and that PK was bringing her the Stollen bundt cake on Thursday?

:seeya: Valleyboy! please come join us

Same thoughts here - I've 'felt' all along that:

1. AG was kept inside her house by the killer for some time/hours.

2. I think the killer sent the last few emails from AG's computer.

3. The part I've done in bold - either AG told someone else or PK was the only one who knew!![modsnip]

 

[roseofsharon]

I've been trying to think of different scenarios regarding why AG's dogs may have been crated.

One scenario that comes to mind is -- if a stranger knocked on the door and AG opened her door part way and her dogs were barking and snarling at the stranger through the door -- stranger requests that she confine her dogs, I wonder if she would do it -- this stranger was possibly someone in a uniform, not necessarily LE, but someone legitimately wearing a uniform or a person impersonating someone who wears a uniform saying they needed to enter her home.

However, I still feel the killer was someone AG knew. I also think that AG went into the garage to open the garage door when she heard someone outside maybe thinking it was someone she was expecting.

imo

 

[roseofsharon]

If AG was at LAV's on Boxing Day and not feeling well, why wouldn't LAV give the soup to AG that day when she was on her way home.

I can't imagine after having guests on Boxing Day, one would feel like getting up and making homemade soup in the a.m. and delivering it in the a.m.

I guess I'm just not that energetic!!:dunno:

imo

 

[nicgumshoe]

Going back to the Amazing Grace emails. It was supposedly a version by André Rieu (Dutch violinist + orchestra).

Can't recall if we've covered this, but Lynden has a large Dutch community...so I wonder if AG first received it from someone there.

 

[roseofsharon]

Going back to the Amazing Grace emails. It was supposedly a version by André Rieu (Dutch violinist + orchestra).

Can't recall if we've covered this, but Lynden has a large Dutch community...so I wonder if AG first received it from someone there.

I always thought it was the Scottish bagpipes tatoo?

 

[Woodland]

I hear you Hazel regarding the time stamp on the e-mails - unfortunately we don't have anyone to corroborate any of the e-mails, only hearsay that I can see so far including the content.

Imo, if Canadian LE was less unionized we may learn more about cases from time to time - alas Canada does not follow suit with the US on demanding info from LE. Our fault.

I tried to verify the timing of AG's last visit to her vet - I see both a couple of days before Christmas and a couple of days later, funny enough the vet seems to say both in the early days. Who knows if LE had any impact on what the facts are with the vet.

 

[roseofsharon]

Going back to the Amazing Grace emails. It was supposedly a version by André Rieu (Dutch violinist + orchestra).

Can't recall if we've covered this, but Lynden has a large Dutch community...so I wonder if AG first received it from someone there.

I wonder if the neighbour across the street is Dutch -- I think it was her and PK that received the email.

 

[roseofsharon]

Going back to the Amazing Grace emails. It was supposedly a version by André Rieu (Dutch violinist + orchestra).

Can't recall if we've covered this, but Lynden has a large Dutch community...so I wonder if AG first received it from someone there.

I always wondered if someone sent it to AG and why she didn't forward to all the people she emailed -- why only two people.

 

[roseofsharon]

Was AG's vet the owner of the pet cemetery where AG's previous dogs were buried. Was he also Togi and Schatzen's vet, however, I thought I read that he was retired. If he is retired, did he retire after AG was murdered.

 

[Woodland]

I like your thoughts on the soup roseofsharon. I always assumed this to be homemade turkey soup following the traditional Christmas dinner. If anyone, like myself, makes soup afterwards - it's sooooo not ready for 2 days. It can be ready on the morning of the 27th - but anyone calling themselves a turkey soup maker would not consider serving it before lunch on the 27th. That's just the way it is for some of us - especially if you like to be the family member to host the holiday dinners, as LAV seemed to be.

 

[Woodland]

AG's vet - and or his sons - are the owners of the cemetery where AG buried her pets. He retired before her murder but seemed to keep some former/long term clients like AG for vitamins among other things.

 

[nicgumshoe]

Was AG's vet the owner of the pet cemetery where AG's previous dogs were buried. Was he also Togi and Schatzen's vet, however, I thought I read that he was retired. If he is retired, did he retire after AG was murdered.

I guess he was retired, but she went to his home:

'Veterinarian Dudley Collins cared for Gleave’s pets for over 30 years. Just days before her death, Gleave visited Collins’ home to pick up some medications for her two German Shepherd dogs, Togi and Schatzen.

“They were her life, those dogs,” said Collins.

Collins, who retired as a vet from Mountain Animal Hospital in 1994, is also the founder of the Ancaster Pet Cemetery on Book Road West.

Gleave had three or four pets buried at the cemetery and often visited the site to pay her respects.

“She was just an all-around good friend,” said Collins. “I never heard her say a bad word about anyone.” '

from: http://www.hamiltonnews.com/news/lynden-honours-audrey-gleave/

sounds more like semi-retired in a way.

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

Here's the history of "Amazing Grace":

http://www.anointedlinks.com/amazing_grace.html

However, Andre Rieu is (or was recently) on tour and has many, many fans!

So....... :dunno: