CANADA Canada - Audrey Gleave, 73, Ancaster ON, 30 Dec 2010 #9

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Woodland said:
I do think it was Audrey that confined the dogs - in whatever manner confined was. Not sure if I'm too close to the edge, but it makes sense to me that Audrey was actually the one lured into confining the dogs - expecting someone that preferred the dogs confined and had asked this before their arrival.

I agree it's highly unlikely someone else could have managed that.
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Maybe Audrey was on her way out the door to pick up something from the store, or "Timmy's" - and put the dogs into the car, thus confining them? imo.
 
I'm so so happy to see the padlock come off of this thread!!! :) The Spec article is excellent and there are a couple tidbits in there that I find very interesting.

"K says police interviewed members of his immediate family and asked to take imprints from shoes belonging to family members, as though testing to see if he wore someone else's footwear on Gleave's property." It's obvious to me that they had shoe prints of some sort. Remembering that it was winter and the ground would have been frozen, the prints would have been in the snow? I quickly went to see if I could find what the weather was like over the days in question. Temperature? Was it raining? I'm thinking that shoe/boot prints would be pretty significant until they ruled out the owner of the boots. JMHO

The second thing that jumped out at me:

"She was a creature of habit: the times when she checked her computer, the hours she slept, coming and going from the house with her dogs.

"It was not random," says Abrams. "She would have known who it was. This really got me thinking that LE have established AG's patterns, and a lot of that was probably from her computer usage. The time it was "woken up", the time it shut down due to inactivity-maybe she always shut it down in a certain sequence or visited a particular website first thing in the morning- stuff like that. Makes me feel good thinking that these things have formed part of the investigation. AG was a teacher, a scientist and a pet owner. Put all three of those things together and IMHO, you have a person who's use to a scheduled life.

I love the fresh eyes on it and maybe if the LE are reading this thread, they'll see that their work isn't going unnoticed! IMHO, LE is right. AG knew her killer. It wasn't someone who wanted to rob her or steal her car, so what would the motive have been? Thought I'd add on a list of murder motives from a best selling author-maybe it'll help! http://www.johnlescroart.com/14-motives-for-murder/ There's some good ones on there! MOO
 
MsSherlock said:
I'm so so happy to see the padlock come off of this thread!!! :) The Spec article is excellent and there are a couple tidbits in there that I find very interesting.

"K says police interviewed members of his immediate family and asked to take imprints from shoes belonging to family members, as though testing to see if he wore someone else's footwear on Gleave's property." It's obvious to me that they had shoe prints of some sort. Remembering that it was winter and the ground would have been frozen, the prints would have been in the snow? I quickly went to see if I could find what the weather was like over the days in question. Temperature? Was it raining? I'm thinking that shoe/boot prints would be pretty significant until they ruled out the owner of the boots. JMHO

The second thing that jumped out at me:

"She was a creature of habit: the times when she checked her computer, the hours she slept, coming and going from the house with her dogs.

"It was not random," says Abrams. "She would have known who it was. This really got me thinking that LE have established AG's patterns, and a lot of that was probably from her computer usage. The time it was "woken up", the time it shut down due to inactivity-maybe she always shut it down in a certain sequence or visited a particular website first thing in the morning- stuff like that. Makes me feel good thinking that these things have formed part of the investigation. AG was a teacher, a scientist and a pet owner. Put all three of those things together and IMHO, you have a person who's use to a scheduled life.

I love the fresh eyes on it and maybe if the LE are reading this thread, they'll see that their work isn't going unnoticed! IMHO, LE is right. AG knew her killer. It wasn't someone who wanted to rob her or steal her car, so what would the motive have been? Thought I'd add on a list of murder motives from a best selling author-maybe it'll help! http://www.johnlescroart.com/14-motives-for-murder/ There's some good ones on there! MOO
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bbm
Put all ... of those things together* and IMHO, you have a person who's ... able to a scheduled ... murder. (modified by me)
Intelligent person I would say.

* ie maybe wearing gloves, undefinable footprints, staged sexual assault (!), no theft, dog confining or knowledge of when they were confined etc. etc.
 
I like the scheduled murder thought - trust that means around Audrey's schedule? Good thought imo.

All reports, including PK's when he posted here, were the dogs were confined in the house while AG was found in the garage.
 
Woodland said:
I like the scheduled murder thought - trust that means around Audrey's schedule? Good thought imo.

All reports, including PK's when he posted here, were the dogs were confined in the house while AG was found in the garage.
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A scheduled murder makes sense if Audrey was keeping to her usual schedule, but she was not keeping to it at that particular time due to illness.
The most predictable thing most people do, is have dinner with others on holidays such as Christmas, which A did not do that year, did perp know that too?
Would the average person with a plot to kill for money, be careful in every way, then violently brutalize an older, arthritic sick woman, then calmly clean it all up? Why not "just" shoot her?
Could murderous rage be simply switched on?
Did someone " schedule' a careful, tidy murder then solicit an inherently violent person to do the dirty work?
imo, speculation, ect.
 
MsSherlock said:
I quickly went to see if I could find what the weather was like over the days in question. Temperature? Was it raining?
Click to expand...
<rsbm>

Don't see anything about precipitation in the form of rain.

Info we had previously gleaned for Dec 29/30:

Thursday Dec 30 2010
Ground was snow-covered, and the fog had set in around midnight Wednesday and in the early hours of today (Thursday) had turned to freezing fog.

Here's Environment Canada historical hourly data reports for December 2010:

http://climate.weather.gc.ca/climat...959-01-01|2011-11-01&Year=2010&Month=12&Day=1

From Dec 20 to 30, there was 4 to 6 cm of snow on the ground, with primarily Trace amounts of precip. Dec 27 however, shows 0 precip, but Trace on Dec 28 through Dec 30.


On another note, if Audrey was killed Dec 27 (as LE seems to have concluded and probably with good reason), why was the Ferguson dog barking wildly around 2:30 am, December 29? That seemed to have been somewhat noteworthy, so presumably the dog was not in the habit of making a big fuss in the middle of the night. Had the killer remained in the home and was leaving then, or had they returned for some reason? Unlikely a stranger could have stayed in the home since the 27th without leaving DNA, so I doubt it was a stranger coming/going. If there was activity at Audrey's home at that time, hopefully the Trace amounts of precip for that date would result in better footprint impressions.
 
Regarding possible timing of Audrey's murder - this has been on my mind since reading the latest article - was hoping the conversation would get around to this! Forgive me, I'm a little on the paranoid side that the threads will be closed again.

http://www.thespec.com/news-story/5809219-who-killed-audrey-gleave-/


On Monday morning, Dec. 27, 2010 she emailed her friend Phil Kinsman, a 22-year old graduate engineering student at McMaster who did gardening and handyman jobs for her.

She wrote that she had not been feeling well lately, but would attend her Wednesday coffee at Williams "come hell or high water." She signed her email "Baryon," a nickname she had coined, after the subatomic particle.

Police believe she was killed that same afternoon or early evening.

So no 2:30 am or any other middle of the night time-frame according to the new detectives. The afternoon/early evening time-frame has been my thought all along - someone arrived at a reasonable 'visiting' time - on a prearranged visit. Makes the dogs confined plausible and reasonable imo. Mind you, I'm one of those 'someone was in the house for many hours before her killing believers'.

FWIW - never really bought into the ill with a virus either. I don't know that for a fact though. I think AG avoided the Christmas Eve soiree she was invited to, to avoid contact with someone she knew would be there and did not care for (previous discussed by a mutual friend of AG and the hostess) and carried that feigned illness over to Christmas Day. Something some close to her could somewhat predict. Either way, what AG did Christmas Day was not dependent on what happened/was planned for the 27th - it would just form part of the story later.

All jmo.
 
dotr said:
A scheduled murder makes sense if Audrey was keeping to her usual schedule, but she was not keeping to it at that particular time due to illness.
The most predictable thing most people do, is have dinner with others on holidays such as Christmas, which A did not do that year, did perp know that too?
Would the average person with a plot to kill for money, be careful in every way, then violently brutalize an older, arthritic sick woman, then calmly clean it all up? Yes - if enough money would be available imo.

Why not "just" shoot her?
Could murderous rage be simply switched on?
Did someone " schedule' a careful, tidy murder then solicit an inherently violent person to do the dirty work? Yes - count me in on that possibility!

imo, speculation, ect.
Click to expand...

Responses embedded in quote.
 
dotr said:
A scheduled murder makes sense if Audrey was keeping to her usual schedule, but she was not keeping to it at that particular time due to illness.
The most predictable thing most people do, is have dinner with others on holidays such as Christmas, which A did not do that year, did perp know that too?
Would the average person with a plot to kill for money, be careful in every way, then violently brutalize an older, arthritic sick woman, then calmly clean it all up? Why not "just" shoot her?
Could murderous rage be simply switched on?
Did someone " schedule' a careful, tidy murder then solicit an inherently violent person to do the dirty work?
imo, speculation, ect.
Click to expand...

I think murderous rage could be something that builds over time (due to criticism, rejection, jealousy for example) either long-simmering or sudden.

As for hiring a violent person, any hitman is violent but their MO may vary. In the Dr. Theresa Sievers case, an arrest has recently been made of an alleged :rolleyes: hitman known as "Hammer" supposedly due to his style of carrying out his hits. Obviously there would be cleaner methods, but seems some perps prefer the violence of the act. Also arrested, her husband's long-time friend (although no indication of involvement by the husband). One has to either know them personally or go through a middle man (more risk of being ultimately caught out). Also, one has to have the money to pay them, but I suppose if it's for ultimate financial gain, it may be seen as worthwhile. No clue on cost but I would hazard a guess of around at least $10,000 with some upfront and remainder on some type of evidence being produced. OR, if you knew someone really low on cash / in need of cash, would you chance approaching them with such a proposition?

So where would one find a middle man? My guess would be through associations with some form of organized crime.
 
Plenty of low life types in most people lives - directly or on the fringes imo. One just has to to be reasonably certain they need the cash enough to perform such an act as this one and approach them.

Organized crime seems over the top here for me - but Hamilton has always had a small but strong mafia group and their names are not secret.
 
Woodland said:
Plenty of low life types in most people lives - directly or on the fringes imo. One just has to to be reasonably certain they need the cash enough to perform such an act as this one and approach them.

Organized crime seems over the top here for me - but Hamilton has always had a small but strong mafia group and their names are not secret.
Click to expand...

"Low lifes" can be part of organized crime, just at the bottom of the ladder. OC can be anything associated with an hierarchy, connections, not necessarily mafia. You want drugs, you want a gun, you want a hit .. know somebody who's a biker for example, who knows somebody who is in an outlaw motorcycle gang, who knows a business man, who knows ... and so it goes. I can go on social media of lots of folks who appear totally upstanding, and a couple of clicks away, end up on the profile of a known figure in organized crime. Don't ask me for links ... I kinda like my life the way it is :D
 
Regardless of who carried out the nasty part of this crime, glad to know the date and time of death has been pegged at 27 Dec between the afternoon and early evening - a most plausible scenario imo - and by someone known to Audrey. Can see that the planner behind this did not get their hands dirty.
 
Maybe it is one of those scrapper/"old house robbers" type of person who did this. These people are everywhere. Audrey's home looked almost like an abandoned home. Maybe someone was snooping around and ran into Audrey leaving? There was an altercation and Audrey was killed. Then he panicked and quickly staged the crime scene to look like a sexual assault.
 
sillybilly said:
<rsbm>

Don't see anything about precipitation in the form of rain.

Info we had previously gleaned for Dec 29/30:

Thursday Dec 30 2010
Ground was snow-covered, and the fog had set in around midnight Wednesday and in the early hours of today (Thursday) had turned to freezing fog.

Here's Environment Canada historical hourly data reports for December 2010:

http://climate.weather.gc.ca/climat...959-01-01|2011-11-01&Year=2010&Month=12&Day=1

From Dec 20 to 30, there was 4 to 6 cm of snow on the ground, with primarily Trace amounts of precip. Dec 27 however, shows 0 precip, but Trace on Dec 28 through Dec 30.


On another note, if Audrey was killed Dec 27 (as LE seems to have concluded and probably with good reason), why was the Ferguson dog barking wildly around 2:30 am, December 29? That seemed to have been somewhat noteworthy, so presumably the dog was not in the habit of making a big fuss in the middle of the night. Had the killer remained in the home and was leaving then, or had they returned for some reason? Unlikely a stranger could have stayed in the home since the 27th without leaving DNA, so I doubt it was a stranger coming/going. If there was activity at Audrey's home at that time, hopefully the Trace amounts of precip for that date would result in better footprint impressions.
Click to expand...
Thanks for that link SB. On the 27th, there was 4 cm of snow on the ground and temps were below freezing- so if they were chasing shoe prints, it would have to one found in the snow. If it was in the ground, it wouldn't be related to anything IMHO. There was only a trace of snow from the 27th to 30th and the temps only went above freezing on the 30th, the day AG was found.
So, according to the latest MSM article, AG was murdered in broad daylight between the afternoon and early evening. She was in the garage, with the garage door closed, dressed with her coat on and the dogs secure in one of the bedrooms. Nothing was stolen. I thought I read somewhere that PK was suppose to visit her on the 27th. Maybe the perp knew this and was thinking that the body would be found by PK on the 27th during his scheduled visit? When no one discovered AG's body on the 27th or 28th the perp thought they better go check and make sure that she was actually dead, but due to the fact that neighbors may see them arrive they had to go in on stealth mode in the middle of the night? MOO
 
MsSherlock said:
Thanks for that link SB. On the 27th, there was 4 cm of snow on the ground and temps were below freezing- so if they were chasing shoe prints, it would have to one found in the snow. If it was in the ground, it wouldn't be related to anything IMHO. There was only a trace of snow from the 27th to 30th and the temps only went above freezing on the 30th, the day AG was found.
So, according to the latest MSM article, AG was murdered in broad daylight between the afternoon and early evening. She was in the garage, with the garage door closed, dressed with her coat on and the dogs secure in one of the bedrooms. Nothing was stolen. I thought I read somewhere that PK was suppose to visit her on the 27th. Maybe the perp knew this and was thinking that the body would be found by PK on the 27th during his scheduled visit? When no one discovered AG's body on the 27th or 28th the perp thought they better go check and make sure that she was actually dead, but due to the fact that neighbors may see them arrive they had to go in on stealth mode in the middle of the night? MOO
Click to expand...

Don't think that scenario would play out because PK was never scheduled on Dec 27. (He said he and AG had planned for Dec 25 but it was rescheduled to the 30th). LV brought AG soup the morning of the 27th and we're still in the dark as to whether AG took the dogs to Dr. Collins that afternoon or "a couple of days before Christmas" ... either one I'm sure LE was able to ultimately verify with Dr. Collins).

Of interest is that early on the 27th, AG had apparently sent the Amazing Grace email to PK, then a bit later that morning the "come hell or high water" email to him that she would be attending her Wednesday coffee klatch, and that Lynn was coming over shortly with soup. Then we have Audrey's photographer friend JH saying that a member of the coffee group received an email that same day that Audrey would not be attending Wednesday. Then there's the second Amazing Grace email later that day sent to LF (which I still think could have been intended for LV). IMO, the email to the coffee friend (in direct contradiction to the one she sent PK) AND the second Amazing Grace email were not sent by Audrey but by her killer.

I know the above is just another rehash, but helps to refresh our recollections. I find the more times I read the timeline, the more clear it becomes.
 
Can anyone find the pic of that item that LE picked up in the ditch near Audrey's house? I've been looking for ages tonight without results. Thanks !!
 
http://www.thespec.com/news-story/2182067-a-complicated-vicious-killing/

&#8220;She had red hair, red lipstick, red fingernails and high, high heels,&#8221; he says. &#8220;She was quite a striking woman. And she had a real love for cars. She drove a bright yellow Rover.&#8221;

De Graaf was falling behind in math and Audrey wouldn't have that. So she tutored him. Three nights a week he would stay late for extra help. And since he lived on the way to her Ancaster house, she would drop him off at home.

&#8220;Textbook open on her steering wheel, down the Mountain we'd drive, Mrs. Gleave explaining a concept or two. But that's the kind of teacher she was! Loved teaching and loved her subject.&#8221;

&#8220;What she did for me was very kind,&#8221; he says emotionally.

De Graaf managed to get through math.

He is 59 now. Retired after years of working for the Toronto District School Board teaching math to students with learning disabilities.

So in a way, Audrey had children. And they have not forgotten her.
 
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