Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #11

[human]

Why would an out of shape office worker of age 75 go to such lengths to kill his wife?

Why strain yourself when you are going to be dead? Why the hassle of hauling around a heavy woman when you might pull your back out, something that is common in older age?

Or did Barry work out and actually have a six pack of abs?

 

[Deleted member 102539]

A reporter's view on BS in 2008, supplement by me:

Although Sherman, the CEO and founder, is the country’s 10th richest man, with a personal wealth of about $3.7 billion, he’s notoriously thrifty. He’s owned only four cars (one wife) in his life, driving (married to) them until they’re ready to junk.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

* double

 

[casesensitive]

Why would an out of shape office worker of age 75 go to such lengths to kill his wife?

Why strain yourself when you are going to be dead? Why the hassle of hauling around a heavy woman when you might pull your back out, something that is common in older age?

Or did Barry work out and actually have a six pack of abs?

And why go to these lengths to make it look like a double suicide when your wife's face has been bloodied which suggests she put up a fight?

 

[WINDSOR]

And as to your point that if someone that was hired to kill them knows them I can't agree with that. If Bob knows Ted and Ted knows Mary but Bob and Mary have never met and Ted has never told Bob about Mary or Mary about Bob then I don't think anyone besides yourself would argue that Bob knows Mary.
Not to get too wrapped up in words, it is my understanding that in most jurisdictions, if a someone hires a hit-man, to murder his wife (as an example) and the hit-man and wife have no prior knowledge of each other. The husband as well as the hit-man are guilty of murder, the victim therefore knew the murderer.

The statistics showed that the attacker had a history of domestic violence in 39 percent of the cases.
I think since you brought up stats and probability in the first place, that 39% is a pretty significant number, and should not be discounted as insignificant.
Aas tighthead said "Statistic are great for analyzing trends, allocating police resources, developing investigative procedures and crime prevention/reduction.
Once you have a specific case, they are basically useless. Each bit of evidence distinguishes it from the big numbers they are lumped in with. They are not an investigative tool.

Life is full of events that had a very low probability of occurring, but did happen. One of the first examples in the modern age was the sinking of the unsinkable Titanic.

The problem all of us sleuthers have in this case is an absence of information, I believe we have to be wary not to take random bits of data and information and infer a conclusion.

 

[WINDSOR]

And why go to these lengths to make it look like a double suicide when your wife's face has been bloodied which suggests she put up a fight?

I do not think it was ever considered a double suicide, the theory is Barry murdered Honey and then committed suicide., and staged the scene to be a double murder to save his and his family's reputation.

I believe the murderers staged a murder/suicide scenario, to confuse the police, the media and the public. To encourage focus away from a targeted double murder. To send a message to survivors. To create confusion and chaos for the investigators, to make the apprehension of the perpetrators more difficult if not impossible.

 

[ldlager]

Regarding Simon Giannini....fwiw have to admit was looking for Sherman, real estate, Apotex and Belize connections at one time. fwiw, imo, speculation
Dec 9 2018
Did same brazen hitman kill mob scion, two Toronto businessmen?
"The Toronto Sun has learned that cops are eyeing a possible connection between the slayings of mob scion Angelo Musitano, veterinary technician Mila Barberi, and the brazen murders of real estate entrepreneur Simon Giannini and tech executive Matthew Staikos."
"Giannini and Staikos had no known links to organized crime.

But in each of the above cases, there are disturbing similarities.

The hitman was cool, quick and deadly."

"In each case, the shooter was a black man described variously as between 5-foot-7 and 5-foot-10."

"Cops arrested alleged hitman Jabril Abdalla, 27, of Hamilton, who has been charged with two counts of first-degree murder in the deaths of Musitano and Barberi. Two of his alleged accomplices remain at large.

Abdalla is black and was free at the time of each of the murders."
"Canadian mafia doyen James Dubro told the Sun it isn’t unusual for traditional organized crime to farm out its dirty work."
“The mob farming out work to street gangs and the like is not as unusual as it seems,” Dubro said."
"Some of those involved were ridiculous people,” Dubro said.

He added that the traditional organized crime families are finding it hard to find reliable killers and sometimes a bit of cocaine or some cash will do the trick."

Sept. 20 2017
Canoe
TORONTO - The real estate impresario brazenly assassinated in a downtown steak house appears whistling clean, according to cops.

And so far detectives appear stymied as to a motive why successful, well-liked father-of-two Simon Giannini’s shining life should end in such a sordid manner.

The 54-year-old was shot to death in what investigators are calling a professional hit at the Michael’s on Simcoe steak house last Saturday night in front of shocked diners in Toronto’s Entertainment District.
Ironically, Giannini was Facebook friends with Francesca Matus, the 52-year-old Keswick woman who was strangled to death with her American boyfriend in a Belize sugar cane field last April.

Matus’ murder remains unsolved."

If Abdalla killed Giannini it shouldn't be too tough for LE to figure that out- they have dozens of eyewitnesses, and clear video of the killer's face as he entered the restaurant just before Giannini was shot.

 

[casesensitive]

I do not think it was ever considered a double suicide, the theory is Barry murdered Honey and then committed suicide., and staged the scene to be a double murder to save his and his family's reputation.

I believe the murderers staged a murder/suicide scenario, to confuse the police, the media and the public. To encourage focus away from a targeted double murder. To send a message to survivors. To create confusion and chaos for the investigators, to make the apprehension of the perpetrators more difficult if not impossible.

Yes, I agree. My comment was in reference to the m/s contenders who have speculated that BS killed HS and staged it to look like a double suicide. (KW, andreww, Mikos34)

 

[Mikos34]

The majority of contract killings I can recall have been done by handgun. Some of the reasons are that handgun killings are quick and have the advantage of being able to be done in public or at least a semi-public place.

Something everyone here should realize is that the far out theories some are advocating in the Sherman case could theoretically be applied to just about all murder suicides or even to all murders. It's only the wealthy who can afford to have a lawyer and private investigation team pitch these voodoo theories to the public as what happened. It's also great luck that the Sherman's knew John Tory so he could be called upon as an ally.

This police investigation has failed so far in my opinion because it's been essentially led by the private investigation team put together by the family and Brian Greenspan rather than by the police. I fully expect in December 2022 to see many news stories stating it's been five years and asking if we are ever going to find out the answer in this case. I think they had it right almost immediately and should have been allowed to make their determination.

 

[casesensitive]

The majority of contract killings I can recall have been done by handgun. Some of the reasons are that handgun killings are quick and have the advantage of being able to be done in public or at least a semi-public place.



Something everyone here should realize is that the far out theories some are advocating in the Sherman case could theoretically be applied to just about all murder suicides or even to all murders. It's only the wealthy who can afford to have a lawyer and private investigation team pitch these voodoo theories to the public as what happened. It's also great luck that the Sherman's knew John Tory so he could be called upon as an ally.

This police investigation has failed so far in my opinion because it's been essentially led by the private investigation team put together by the family and Brian Greenspan rather than by the police. I fully expect in December 2022 to see many news stories stating it's been five years and asking if we are ever going to find out the answer in this case. I think they had it right almost immediately and should have been allowed to make their determination.

The manner of death rests on the results of the second autopsy performed by Dr. David Chiasson. The TPS obviously accepted his findings that both Sherman's had their wrists bound at some point, and that the belts tied to the railings had not caused the ligature compressions. Why would Chiasson (who is still working) risk his stellar reputation and career to cover up a m/s?

I can accept that powerful people could have had influence in this case. You have made some good points, but I feel that cops aren't too impressed with BS and will continue on with their investigations.

 

[Mikos34]

The manner of death rests on the results of the second autopsy performed by Dr. David Chiasson. The TPS obviously accepted his findings that both Sherman's had their wrists bound at some point, and that the belts tied to the railings had not caused the ligature compressions. Why would Chiasson (who is still working) risk his stellar reputation and career to cover up a m/s?

I can accept that powerful people could have had influence in this case. You have made some good points, but I feel that cops aren't too impressed with BS and will continue on with their investigations.

My original thought for the wrist markings several months ago was that leverage was needed to drag the body through the house so rope or something was used. Since they didn't find rope perhaps belts or something else was used. The lack of rope found steered me away from that thought but perhaps something else similar like sleeves on a coat jacket could be tied to someone (I haven't tried it).

Also, I don't think he is risking his reputation by stating a hypothetical which could even be correct. They both could have something around their wrists to help drag the body. Someone would have to interview a pathologist about it.

I know months ago I had read a number of things about people speculating it was a police coverup to salvage his reputation. Just recently I had the thought that it was entirely possible that the detective could be convinced into believing the targeted theory and there didn't need to be a high level coverup. Similarly, Chiasson could be exactly right that something was tied around their wrist and he correctly assessed it while incorrectly assessing that it was other people who had tied something around their wrists.

It probably is a better theory that most of the actors in this investigation are under a lot of pressure and making what they feel are correct decisions rather than going down a cover-up and people are making up stories road.

 

[human]

Dragging such heavy people by the wrists? Wouldn’t that result in dislocations and other things? These were not spring chickens.

What is the purpose of dragging heavy people throughout the house ?

 

[deugirtni]

Just speculation but my guess is to fake a double suicide.

How do you figure a man of such intelligence would figure this could possibly look like a double suicide, considering that H's face was apparently so scratched up that it created a 'pool of blood' underneath where she was hung?

 

[deugirtni]

If there was evidence for the targeted theory then I wouldn't even bring up the crime data and wouldn't be here discussing the case. However, there is none (little if you want to consider Chiasson's) . It's a matter of why believe in something improbable without a reason. In every murder/suicide in the area no one was there to witness it. A crime novelist could create a scenario where the man appeared to sho0t his wife and himself but the gun was planted in his hands and the husband is innocent but such scenarios are not given credence by the police. Only in this case are the farfetched scenarios being strongly considered.

I am curious as to why you wouldn't be here discussing the case "if there was evidence for 'the targeted theory'."

You are participating *only* if it is M/S?

Frankly, we as the public, the press, yourself, (and likely most of TPS) are not privy to the evidence. Would you not find the case just as interesting if, as TPS states, it was a targeted double homicide, (ie by *whom*??)? Why is it of interest to you *only* if Barry did it?

 

[Mikos34]

I am curious as to why you wouldn't be here discussing the case "if there was evidence for 'the targeted theory'."

You are participating *only* if it is M/S?

Frankly, we as the public, the press, yourself, (and likely most of TPS) are not privy to the evidence. Would you not find the case just as interesting if, as TPS states, it was a targeted double homicide, (ie by *whom*??)? Why is it of interest to you *only* if Barry did it?

There's no controversy in the case if it's clear what happened and no I wouldn't spend time on a message board because I wouldn't feel I had anything to offer.

Everyone knows we are not privy to the evidence. I never made any claim that we were. However, the way this case has been handled is unusual and a Toronto Star article last fall said that detectives told people they were interviewing that they were "at loose ends". Susan Gomes has moved on to another job and a 10 million dollar reward has been announced but with nothing to help the public being stated at the press conference. Gomes refused to discuss any particulars and never has.

 

[Mikos34]

How do you figure a man of such intelligence would figure this could possibly look like a double suicide, considering that H's face was apparently so scratched up that it created a 'pool of blood' underneath where she was hung?

So H had a pool of blood beneath her and Barry wasn't hit at all. Why would she take the brunt of the abuse if they both were targeted? Another point against the targeted theory.

Intelligent people get mad and act impulsive just like other people. <modsnip personalized >

 

[deugirtni]

....
What do you think would be the reason for both B and H to be held up by belts to the swimming pool railing, especially if H was already (speculated) deceased?

Just speculation but my guess is to fake a double suicide.

How do you figure a man of such intelligence would figure this could possibly look like a double suicide, considering that H's face was apparently so scratched up that it created a 'pool of blood' underneath where she was hung?

So H had a pool of blood beneath her and Barry wasn't hit at all. Why would she take the brunt of the abuse if they both were targeted? Another point against the targeted theory.

Intelligent people get mad and act impulsive just like other people. <modsnip personalized >

You had speculated that B tied himself and his wife to the railing to fake a double suicide, so I'm wondering how that could be, when we consider the apparent assault on H's face to such a degree that it created a pool of blood. Something to think about, but please do not ever feel you must answer anyone at all. In my way of thinking, that assault would have precluded the opportunity to make it appear as a double suicide, since obviously, H was not a willing participant.

The notion that B *could* have struck H says nothing about his intelligence, however I'm saying his intelligence would have alerted him that at such a point, it would have been too late to make it appear a double suicide. So if B did it as a murder/suicide, he was only left with making it appear as a M/S, or a double homicide... and if he wanted to make his M/S appear to be a double homicide in order to save his reputation, I think it would have been very simple for an intelligent man like him to do a much better job of that scenario to try to fool the cops.

I believe H took the brunt of the abuse even though both targeted, simply because she was first to arrive home, and from my own opinion which has been formed about her based on all I have read, she could be fiesty.. and I am imagining that she got mouthy with her attacker(s), and especially if she knew him/them. Possibly spoke down to him or dissed him.. whatever. She may or may not have already been dead by the time B arrived home.

 

[WINDSOR]

I wonder if there were any defensive wounds on Honey, and if they found anybody's DNA under her fingernails. If Barry's DNA was under her nails, likely caused by her fighting and scratching Harry, I would agree with the murder/suicide scenario. Were there any scratches on Barry?

Since it is pretty obvious that the TPS would check this out early on, based on the fact she was injured, I believe the TPS discovered somebody else's DNA. With something so obvious as this evidence it would be very hard for the TPS to push the double murder scenario. Since the TPS is still on the double murder theory, I believe they found something.

Barry having scratches and his DNA under Honey's nails ==== probably Murder/Suicide
No Barry's DNA under nails, No scratches on Barry======== probably Double Murder

 

[Sphinx]

I wonder if there were any defensive wounds on Honey, and if they found anybody's DNA under her fingernails. If Barry's DNA was under her nails, likely caused by her fighting and scratching Harry, I would agree with the murder/suicide scenario. Were there any scratches on Barry?

Since it is pretty obvious that the TPS would check this out early on, based on the fact she was injured, I believe the TPS discovered somebody else's DNA. With something so obvious as this evidence it would be very hard for the TPS to push the double murder scenario. Since the TPS is still on the double murder theory, I believe they found something.

Barry having scratches and his DNA under Honey's nails ==== probably Murder/Suicide
No Barry's DNA under nails, No scratches on Barry======== probably Double Murder

 

[Sphinx]

You make a very good point about the DNA, but I suspect that these killers were professionals, and used gloves, as well as some kind of hats, or hair covers when in the house. They may have covered their shoes or boots . If any trace of glove material was
found under Honey's fingernails, that would be interesting evidence . She could have been beaten, while being restrained, in order to make her give some information, or phone Barry, and ask him to return home early. TPS has I believe, stated that they suspect that there was more than one killer, so maybe she did not have a chance to fight back, and as another person mentioned on this forum, she could have been beaten in front of Barry to make him comply in some way. IMO