Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #14

[Sillybilly]

ADMIN NOTE:

Numerous posts have been removed.

There is nothing to support an allegation that JS has refused to speak with law enforcement.

 

[casesensitive]

If they are that sophisticated, they could contain this info if they wanted it.

I do find it interesting that Moldaver specifically termed it a "criminal organization". He specifically didn't say it was just an "organization". And he specifically didn't say they were just "sophisticated criminals." If the killers belonged to say Mossad (pure conjecture on my part), would Moldaver term Mossad a "criminal organization?" I doubt it.
He may not have any specific knowledge, but if he does, he seems to indicate that the killers were part of an organization of criminals, and in fact committed the murders as part of the criminal organization, and not an organization whose fundamental purpose is non criminal (like armed forces, Mossad, etc).. JMO

For sure, Moldaver knows a lot more than we know. His statements align with the results of Greenspan's investigation that the Shermans were killed by professionals. He also has the input from TPS. I tend to listen to what people in the know have to say.

 

[deugirtni]

I'm sure we've already discussed this, but it's been so long... coming up to 3 year anniversary soon. With utilities like water and power having "time of use" billings, I wonder if police have looked into those records to see if they could make any determinations from them? ie no water being used for hours and then at a certain time, water usage (perhaps toilet flush), or whatever. They may have been able to determine when HS arrived home at least.. perhaps if the perps had ran water for any kind of cleanup, etc. What time the power usage went fairly flat.... etc. Also, if police have both phones, they would have GPS data from the phones, to know when they each arrived home, where they may have gone on their way home, etc.

 

[deugirtni]

Was it ever mentioned whether BS had his cellphone with him when he was found?

<modsnip: Quoted posts were removed>

I don’t think there been any mention of where Barry’s cellphone was found. Only this -

Google search summary - Wall Street Journal (paylocked)
Jun 29, 2018 — Barry Sherman, the founder of Apotex Inc., and his wife, Honey. ... lingered at the office for a few hours to answer emails on his BlackBerry.

I did searches in Donovans book and can't find mention of his phone being recovered altho he did mention Honey's phone being found. Perhaps he wrote about it in an article?

 

[deugirtni]

People have wondered why both of them, and that if B was the target, why kill H too, etc.

While I was searching through KDs book, I was reminded:

*JS had wanted piles of money to invest in both his storage company and his plan to purchase cottages (250M)
*It was said that in BSs Will, he had assigned trustees to provide HS monies to live on, however he did not leave tangible money to her; it was said that once HS died, the wealth would pass to the 4 children. It was also said however, that HS had no Will. (Since the actual monies had never passed to HS, she wouldn't have a say in where it went upon her own death)
*It was said that much of BS money was tied up in Apotex and Sherfam and there wasn't a lot of liquidity for huge sums without selling off part of Apo (ch13), which he was not prepared to do in 2017
*It was said there were issues btwn JK and JS because JK felt plans to start selling off the company were moving too fast and he wanted to honor BS wishes to protect employees (ch17)

From all of that, I'm surmising that in order to get big money released, both would have to die? Jmo

 

[ldlager]

People have wondered why both of them, and that if B was the target, why kill H too, etc.

While I was searching through KDs book, I was reminded:

*JS had wanted piles of money to invest in both his storage company and his plan to purchase cottages (250M)
*It was said that in BSs Will, he had assigned trustees to provide HS monies to live on, however he did not leave tangible money to her; it was said that once HS died, the wealth would pass to the 4 children. It was also said however, that HS had no Will. (Since the actual monies had never passed to HS, she wouldn't have a say in where it went upon her own death)
*It was said that much of BS money was tied up in Apotex and Sherfam and there wasn't a lot of liquidity for huge sums without selling off part of Apo (ch13), which he was not prepared to do in 2017
*It was said there were issues btwn JK and JS because JK felt plans to start selling off the company were moving too fast and he wanted to honor BS wishes to protect employees (ch17)

From all of that, I'm surmising that in order to get big money released, both would have to die? Jmo

Exactamundo!!!

 

[ldlager]

I'm sure we've already discussed this, but it's been so long... coming up to 3 year anniversary soon. With utilities like water and power having "time of use" billings, I wonder if police have looked into those records to see if they could make any determinations from them? ie no water being used for hours and then at a certain time, water usage (perhaps toilet flush), or whatever. They may have been able to determine when HS arrived home at least.. perhaps if the perps had ran water for any kind of cleanup, etc. What time the power usage went fairly flat.... etc. Also, if police have both phones, they would have GPS data from the phones, to know when they each arrived home, where they may have gone on their way home, etc.

There is only 1 officer on the case. He is scheduled to review the phone gps data in April, 2026.

 

[deugirtni]

There is only 1 officer on the case. He is scheduled to review the phone gps data in April, 2026.

I realize your sarcasm... but all kidding aside, I'm a little confused about the gps data. Isn't the gps data from a phone actually obtained from the phone itself? Whereas other info like call logs and some texts can come from the provider, and also cell tower interactions? I had thought so, and also thought certain things are only available by forensically examining the phone's data itself, while other things were only available through provider. Jmo.

I'm sure TPS have looked at the obvious already.. but I think they're smarter than we give them credit for, and they're looking now for more hidden and sophisticated data and matches.

My personal feeling is that once they recovered from their initial mistake of believing perhaps what may have seemed obvious at the time, they've gone full steam ahead with what seems like a painstaking journey to find links. G-d only knows what it was that made them initially believe that weird and gruesome scene was a M/S, but whatever it was must've seemed like a sure bet, contrary to what it sounds like from what the public has been told.

Somehow I have faith in them and i'm happy to hear they still have one full time officer dedicated to this case. To me, if there are too many fingers in the kind of pie i believe theyre analyzing, things will be missed and too much room for error and too many assumptions and not enough accountability, ie 'oh I thought officer x had done that part', etc. Jmo.

 

[ldlager]

I realize your sarcasm... but all kidding aside, I'm a little confused about the gps data. Isn't the gps data from a phone actually obtained from the phone itself? Whereas other info like call logs and some texts can come from the provider, and also cell tower interactions? I had thought so, and also thought certain things are only available by forensically examining the phone's data itself, while other things were only available through provider. Jmo.

I'm sure TPS have looked at the obvious already.. but I think they're smarter than we give them credit for, and they're looking now for more hidden and sophisticated data and matches.

My personal feeling is that once they recovered from their initial mistake of believing perhaps what may have seemed obvious at the time, they've gone full steam ahead with what seems like a painstaking journey to find links. G-d only knows what it was that made them initially believe that weird and gruesome scene was a M/S, but whatever it was must've seemed like a sure bet, contrary to what it sounds like from what the public has been told.

Somehow I have faith in them and i'm happy to hear they still have one full time officer dedicated to this case. To me, if there are too many fingers in the kind of pie i believe theyre analyzing, things will be missed and too much room for error and too many assumptions and not enough accountability, ie 'oh I thought officer x had done that part', etc. Jmo.

Yes I was being sarcastic. Im afraid after 3 years of little to no significant news and no updates from police, I have been forced into skepticism!
I’m in no way knowledgeable about gps tracking. But wouldn’t the signal from the phone bounce to or from a satellite to/from the cell tower? If so, wouldn’t the gps coordinates of the phone be tracked and recorded. There is lots of expertise on this thread, I’m sure someone can provide details.

 

[MistyWaters]

People have wondered why both of them, and that if B was the target, why kill H too, etc.

While I was searching through KDs book, I was reminded:

*JS had wanted piles of money to invest in both his storage company and his plan to purchase cottages (250M)
*It was said that in BSs Will, he had assigned trustees to provide HS monies to live on, however he did not leave tangible money to her; it was said that once HS died, the wealth would pass to the 4 children. It was also said however, that HS had no Will. (Since the actual monies had never passed to HS, she wouldn't have a say in where it went upon her own death)
*It was said that much of BS money was tied up in Apotex and Sherfam and there wasn't a lot of liquidity for huge sums without selling off part of Apo (ch13), which he was not prepared to do in 2017
*It was said there were issues btwn JK and JS because JK felt plans to start selling off the company were moving too fast and he wanted to honor BS wishes to protect employees (ch17)

From all of that, I'm surmising that in order to get big money released, both would have to die? Jmo

Only TPS know the evidence or who might be a suspect but I’m curious of any reason Idsinga would mention the “damaging speculation in the media” if one of the Sherman family members were indeed a suspect? I also notice he used the word “speculation” as opposed to “facts” or “information”.

My take on his words is this is as close to a blatant declaration as possible that each of the Sherman family members have been cleared. It’s highly unusual for any high ranking police officer to thank family members for being supportive in an unsolved murder investigation. So unusual that I can’t recall it occurring in any other Canadian unsolved murder case. JMO

BBM

“Yet Idsinga also didn’t hesitate to speak on behalf of the family: “The Sherman family thank the public and media for continuing support,” he said, adding that they asked for their privacy to be respected. It was “damaging to read about speculation in the media,” Idsinga said on behalf of the family before thanking them: “I would like to thank Sherman family for their continuing support.”....”
Barry and Honey Sherman murders' newest twist: family and police join forces - Macleans.ca

 

[ldlager]

Only TPS know the evidence or who might be a suspect but I’m curious of any reason Idsinga would mention the “damaging speculation in the media” if one of the Sherman family members were indeed a suspect? I also notice he used the word “speculation” as opposed to “facts” or “information”.

My take on his words is this is as close to a blatant declaration as possible that each of the Sherman family members have been cleared. It’s highly unusual for any high ranking police officer to thank family members for being supportive in an unsolved murder investigation. So unusual that I can’t recall it occurring in any other Canadian unsolved murder case. JMO

BBM

“Yet Idsinga also didn’t hesitate to speak on behalf of the family: “The Sherman family thank the public and media for continuing support,” he said, adding that they asked for their privacy to be respected. It was “damaging to read about speculation in the media,” Idsinga said on behalf of the family before thanking them: “I would like to thank Sherman family for their continuing support.”....”
Barry and Honey Sherman murders' newest twist: family and police join forces - Macleans.ca

Maybe by saying “damaging speculation” he meant that it was damaging to their investigation! Perhaps he feared the speculation was in fact consistent with the findings of their investigation to date, and would alert their suspect.

Maybe his words regarding thanking the family for their “support” was meant to not tip off or alert the family that one or more of them might be suspects. Just as at the beginning of this case, some people believe the police were intentionally vague and intentionally led the public to believe that the police thought it was a murder suicide, idsinga could have been intentionally misleading in his words in order to protect their investigation, or to not tip off a particular person that they were a suspect.

 

[MistyWaters]

Maybe by saying “damaging speculation” he meant that it was damaging to their investigation! Perhaps he feared the speculation was in fact consistent with the findings of their investigation to date, and would alert their suspect.

Maybe his words regarding thanking the family for their “support” was meant to not tip off or alert the family that one or more of them might be suspects. Just as at the beginning of this case, some people believe the police were intentionally vague and intentionally led the public to believe that the police thought it was a murder suicide, idsinga could have been intentionally misleading in his words in order to protect their investigation, or to not tip off a particular person that they were a suspect.

Instead of having to twist Idsinga’s words to fit your theory, I’d suggest he needn’t have expressed any comment whatsoever in support of the Sherman family if he didn’t mean exactly what he stated.

 

[deugirtni]

Only TPS know the evidence or who might be a suspect but I’m curious of any reason Idsinga would mention the “damaging speculation in the media” if one of the Sherman family members were indeed a suspect? I also notice he used the word “speculation” as opposed to “facts” or “information”.

My take on his words is this is as close to a blatant declaration as possible that each of the Sherman family members have been cleared. It’s highly unusual for any high ranking police officer to thank family members for being supportive in an unsolved murder investigation. So unusual that I can’t recall it occurring in any other Canadian unsolved murder case. JMO

BBM

“Yet Idsinga also didn’t hesitate to speak on behalf of the family: “The Sherman family thank the public and media for continuing support,” he said, adding that they asked for their privacy to be respected. It was “damaging to read about speculation in the media,” Idsinga said on behalf of the family before thanking them: “I would like to thank Sherman family for their continuing support.”....”
Barry and Honey Sherman murders' newest twist: family and police join forces - Macleans.ca

I'm not sure what speculation in the media Idsinga was referring to. If you mean he was referring to KD, I'm also not sure that he has actually speculated about a family member. Admittedly I haven't read every word in KD's book, but I haven't seen him speculate. Perhaps alluded to, might be a better word. Unfortunately I can think of a reason why he might think it damaging if media speculated about someone AND said person was also being secretly considered a suspect. Further, I am reading from the quoted text that it was the family who said it was damaging to read..., and Idsinga was relaying the family's message.

From what I have read to date, it seems (to me at least) like KD is providing commentary from interviews he did with various people who were knowledgeable or close to the couple and situations. I may have forgotten since it's been awhile, but I don't recall him particularly expressing his opinion other than perhaps his own thought processes at certain times.

I can't say if I've ever heard police thank a family for their support, however in this case, since it was so heavily broadcast that the family were upset with several police actions, they got their own ME, they hired their own detectives, there was political involvement, and at time of thanking, the family had cut their investigative team loose and seemed to be dealing directly with TPS, I can only imagine the relief TPS may have been feeling at that time, all things considered.

As well, I wouldn't expect TPS to divulge their investigation or their tactics. In my mind, nothing Idsinga is saying translates into each of the family members having been cleared. Jmo.

 

[MistyWaters]

I'm not sure what speculation in the media Idsinga was referring to. If you mean he was referring to KD, I'm also not sure that he has actually speculated about a family member. Admittedly I haven't read every word in KD's book, but I haven't seen him speculate. Perhaps alluded to, might be a better word. Unfortunately I can think of a reason why he might think it damaging if media speculated about someone AND said person was also being secretly considered a suspect. Further, I am reading from the quoted text that it was the family who said it was damaging to read..., and Idsinga was relaying the family's message.

From what I have read to date, it seems (to me at least) like KD is providing commentary from interviews he did with various people who were knowledgeable or close to the couple and situations. I may have forgotten since it's been awhile, but I don't recall him particularly expressing his opinion other than perhaps his own thought processes at certain times.

I can't say if I've ever heard police thank a family for their support, however in this case, since it was so heavily broadcast that the family were upset with several police actions, they got their own ME, they hired their own detectives, there was political involvement, and at time of thanking, the family had cut their investigative team loose and seemed to be dealing directly with TPS, I can only imagine the relief TPS may have been feeling at that time, all things considered.

As well, I wouldn't expect TPS to divulge their investigation or their tactics. In my mind, nothing Idsinga is saying translates into each of the family members having been cleared. Jmo.

It’s against TOS for me to c/p the entire article from that link but If you have time to read it, it provides greater context to my earlier comments -

For example -
“The sudden show of family solidarity—and solidarity between the family and police—comes in the wake of the recent publication of The Billionaire Murders, by Toronto Star investigative reporter Kevin Donovan.....”
Barry and Honey Sherman murders' newest twist: family and police join forces - Macleans.ca

 

[Satchie]

From what I have read to date, it seems (to me at least) like KD is providing commentary from interviews he did with various people who were knowledgeable or close to the couple and situations. I may have forgotten since it's been awhile, but I don't recall him particularly expressing his opinion other than perhaps his own thought processes at certain times.

I haven't read KD's book or followed closely, but just my impression is that he has a lot of 'unnamed sources' who have allegedly leaked personal emails, conversations and so forth, that supposedly reveal things like conflict within the family. KD knows better than to come right out and state anything like 'this is suspicous', that would leave him open to litigation. I imagine a lawyer goes through every word before it is printed.

IMO, the damage comes from, firstly, the conclusions many people will draw about who is guilty, from the way KD lays out his alleged evidence; and secondly, the constant sense for the family and police, that various people within the circle of friends and family are secretly passing information to KD, that may or may not be true or relevant.

It all started with that one 'story' by Warmington at the Sun, citing his 'insider source', who people still believe was a real cop deeply imbedded within the investigation, but IMO could just as easily have been a clerk in the mailroom. That story alone was deeply damaging to the relationship between the family and TPS.

IMO, people like Warmington and KD are trying to play Woodsworth and Bernstein, but this is no Watergate, and the truth is, the FBI were way ahead of the reporters anyway, LE are really the ones who deserve the credit and respect, but they don't get Robert Redford to play them in the movie.

JMO

 

[MistyWaters]

Interestingly, KD doesn’t deny that his own sources may be guilty. What does KD care about who’s actually guilty? He’s riding on the mystery of it and he took the opportunity to insert himself in the story by writing his media articles and selling his book. As a reporter/writer that’s about as good as it gets as he doesn’t have access to the investigative file.

“When Greenspan has written me, he says that my own sources, who I don’t identify, may be guilty as well.”
Who killed Barry and Honey Sherman? A new book offers fascinating insights. - Macleans.ca

ETA - Sounds to me like Greenspan was nudging KD to send in a tip on his sources for that $10 million prize pot, if he hadn’t done so already.

 

[ldlager]

Instead of having to twist Idsinga’s words to fit your theory, I’d suggest he needn’t have expressed any comment whatsoever in support of the Sherman family if he didn’t mean exactly what he stated.

He obviously knew the media would ask about this very issue, and he had to position an answer. If he had said that "certain members of the family have not been cooperating" (if that was the truth) imagine the reaction of the media and the public. I have no idea what Idsinga or the police have in their heads. I was simply pointing out that they seem to have done a similar thing early in the case.

 

[ldlager]

Only TPS know the evidence or who might be a suspect but I’m curious of any reason Idsinga would mention the “damaging speculation in the media” if one of the Sherman family members were indeed a suspect? I also notice he used the word “speculation” as opposed to “facts” or “information”.

My take on his words is this is as close to a blatant declaration as possible that each of the Sherman family members have been cleared. It’s highly unusual for any high ranking police officer to thank family members for being supportive in an unsolved murder investigation. So unusual that I can’t recall it occurring in any other Canadian unsolved murder case. JMO

BBM

“Yet Idsinga also didn’t hesitate to speak on behalf of the family: “The Sherman family thank the public and media for continuing support,” he said, adding that they asked for their privacy to be respected. It was “damaging to read about speculation in the media,” Idsinga said on behalf of the family before thanking them: “I would like to thank Sherman family for their continuing support.”....”
Barry and Honey Sherman murders' newest twist: family and police join forces - Macleans.ca

Idsinga knows the tremendous amount of speculation out there in the public relating to the possible involvement of at least one family member in particular in these murders. This speculation has been fueled and accelerated by media reports, and by KD's book, which outlines what some would term negative interactions between family members and Barry and Honey. Knowing this, and the tremendous amount of hurt that these rumours must be causing the family, why do you think Idsinga didn't simply state something like "at this time we have no evidence to link any members of the Sherman family to the murders"? Wouldn't this have been a direct way to deal with the issue, instead of obfuscating, and thereby allowing these rumours to persist, to the detriment of the family?

 

[MistyWaters]

Idsinga knows the tremendous amount of speculation out there in the public relating to the possible involvement of at least one family member in particular in these murders. This speculation has been fueled and accelerated by media reports, and by KD's book, which outlines what some would term negative interactions between family members and Barry and Honey. Knowing this, and the tremendous amount of hurt that these rumours must be causing the family, why do you think Idsinga didn't simply state something like "at this time we have no evidence to link any members of the Sherman family to the murders"? Wouldn't this have been a direct way to deal with the issue, instead of obfuscating, and thereby allowing these rumours to persist, to the detriment of the family?

You will recall it was Sherman family members who first insisted this was a double murder, not murder/suicide and hired a PI team to conduct a parallel investigation, who publicly criticized some of the police work early on. Wouldn’t it be totally ridiculous, two years later, for Idsinga to announce the Sherman family members had been cleared?

 

[MistyWaters]

Just because the loans were registered in that amount, it doesn’t mean that much was advanced and owing Only the debtor and creditor know the actual amount.

Many private lenders, and even banks in certain situations, register loans for more than is advanced to prevent the borrower from taking on more debt. With those loans registered, the company had no chance of obtaining another credit facility.

This prevents the borrower from further leveraging their equity, and also prevents any potential foreclosure action by anyone other than Barry. It also allows for later advances from the lender without the need for further registration and loan agreements.

It’s not unusual and Barry’s lawyer likely recommended it.

It also absolutely typical for a mortgage or caveat to be registered for the full amount of financing approval and then money advanced in stages as improvements were being completed, known as progress draws. This negates the need to register a new charge against the title every time additional funds are advanced. It’s possible only the early draws had been advanced at the time of the murders.