CANADA Canada - Billionaire Couple Barry & Honey Sherman Murdered at Home, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #23

[Cedars]

I disagree. There are many, many murders where the murderer is leading the charge to “find” the murderer and/or “find” the body. Think, e.g., of the many victims of domestic violence where the guilty partner is the first to call 911 to report them missing, is the first to make tearful pleas for their partner’s return, is on the frontline of searches and, often, is the one who locates the body. Throughout these situations, police do not advertise that the spouse is a clear suspect. But I’m sure the spouse is a main suspect from the start. Bottom line: we have no real idea what the police know or don’t know in this case, or when they knew it, or who they suspect, and neither does the family. MOO.

I agree about the level of deceptiveness you describe. I've followed true crime a lot, for a long time, all of that is very familiar -

I was addressing specifically the theory that someone would elaborately stage a murder-suicide, only to immediately insist, in public, that it couldn't possibly be the way it was staged. As a strategy to 'outsmart' police.

A (real) psychopath stages a loved one(s) disappearance, then they insist "oh no, they disappeared, where are they?".

But do they stage a disappearance, and then (cleverly) insist to police that the victims would never disappear, someone must have murdered them?

Clever Chris Watts tells police: 'my wife would never leave with the children like that, without telling me - they must have been abducted from our home in a vehicle, since her car is still here - I'm going to hire a team of PIs to prove it.' ?

Or, they hire someone to stage the murder as a break-in, and have the alibi of being in a far distant location. Do they then insist 'this was not a break-in'?

Clever Mark Sievers "Police are idiots if they believe a thief got in that flimsy side door with a hammer, and killed my wife because she unexpectedly came home. That's ridiculous, I'm going to hire a team of PI's to prove it was some kind of targetted plot against her. And by the way, my alibi isn't very secure, I can't prove I was actually thousands of miles away.' ?

The victim is staged as having apparently drowned in a bathtub. Perpetrator-husband, trying to outsmart police, insists his wife never took baths, she was a shower-type of girl. ?

Hopefully, I have now explained my objections more clearly.

I've never seen a case where a crime scene was staged, only to have the perp then implicate themselves by denying the staging. However, if there are examples out there, I'd love to learn about them.

JMO

 

[hexicon]

JMO--I don't think the police are dealing with a true psychopath here (except possibly for the hired professional, who IMO is foreign and likely not to be identified yet). Instead I think we are dealing with normal human behavior taken to extreme--a greedy, angry, hurt individual who is a reasonably good planner but nonetheless experienced a wide variety of mixed emotions before and after the event.

If a person commissioned a planned murder with m/s staging, yet knew an autopsy would quickly expose it as homicide, then I don't think it's preposterous for them to try to get ahead of the game and insist it's murder. In fact, the person was probably surprised that the police accepted the murder-suicide theory as long as they did. And if the person has the means and ability to set up a tip line and reward that ensure the tips are sent to private lawyers and not the police, so much the better.

I know some of this thinking seems a little fictive, but the lack of arrests would seem to indicate this is a complex case even if the motive is simple.

MOO.

 

[RHR]

JMO--I don't think the police are dealing with a true psychopath here (except possibly for the hired professional, who IMO is foreign and likely not to be identified yet). Instead I think we are dealing with normal human behavior taken to extreme--a greedy, angry, hurt individual who is a reasonably good planner but nonetheless experienced a wide variety of mixed emotions before and after the event.

If a person commissioned a planned murder with m/s staging, yet knew an autopsy would quickly expose it as homicide, then I don't think it's preposterous for them to try to get ahead of the game and insist it's murder. In fact, the person was probably surprised that the police accepted the murder-suicide theory as long as they did. And if the person has the means and ability to set up a tip line and reward that ensure the tips are sent to private lawyers and not the police, so much the better.

I know some of this thinking seems a little fictive, but the lack of arrests would seem to indicate this is a complex case even if the motive is simple.

MOO.

I agree completely.

 

[Bobbi Pearl]

That 9 PM - midnight estimation is likely based on the analysis of the ADT Security Times.

Honey Sherman very likely deactivated the alarm close to 9 PM on December 13, 2017, when she arrived home. The actual time is redacted in the ITOs.

The Shermans would typically activate the alarm (in-home mode) before retiring for the night, between 11 and midnight. On December 13, 2017 the alarm was not activated.

My recollection is they looked at last time cellular was used by HS and BS and no communication after 9 pm. IMO they could still be alive at this time, but tied up and restrained.

However better information is available today maybe KD is bang on with the intel he has.

 

[Bobbi Pearl]

Pool room because it was furthest away from the general living area or any area used by people living or working in the house. There would be a longer time before they were found.
Spending longer time in the home than you would think a hired hit man/person would want or need to ?
This to me shows that this was someone close to the family. I think there was a search of the home for wills or something that could be related to the estate.

I also think the pool room would have ventilation and cover any smell protruding through the home.

Have also thought shame, hiding them deep in the basement where few people go.

 

[Bobbi Pearl]

I haven't commented on this thread for a while, but I read it regularly.

With the many possible motives and perpetrators in play - relatives, business associates, pharmaceutical companies, parties sued by Barry and perhaps political interests - it is very difficult to identify suspects. I'm sure TPS is closer than any of us.

That said, my personal theory is that one of the parties involved in the design and construction of the Sherman's Old Colony Rd house became enraged as they saw the house listed for sale, and planned the murders. The Sherman's sued almost everyone involved in the house, recouping most of the money spent on it, but the house was going to be sold for a huge profit. The suits were likely ruinous.

Of course, with so many other possibilities, the motives remain an open question.

The old colony home is so entwined in this case. Many post regarding the money the Sherman’s received from these suites against construction companies. IMO to win a court case the work had to be unacceptable and the monies regained were to make repairs to the home. How could you sue because the home was not built solid and had flaws and not fix the issues? these repairs had to be done, ie repair leaking pool. Etc.

 

[Bobbi Pearl]

The old colony home is so entwined in this case. Many post regarding the money the Sherman’s received from these suites against construction companies. IMO to win a court case the work had to be unacceptable and the monies regained were to make repairs to the home. How could you sue because the home was not built solid and had flaws and not fix the issues? these repairs had to be done, ie repair leaking pool. Etc.

Do we know if the Sherman’s received money in judgement or were the companies responsible for all costs to fix the problems described as errors in the design? And completed to BS level of expectations. Repairing is never as good as new, it costs more money to repair versus to build new in many situations.

 

[MerlinFalcon]

Toronto Life interview

This is with the showrunner of Law and Order: Toronto. She said the storylines will be recognizable to Torontonians.

"Like, “Billionaire couple, famous Jewish philanthropists, found brutally murdered in their own home”?
Right. But then we’ll take the story in a totally different direction. We’re not making docu-dramas. We’ll start with a true crime headline, but from there we’re fictionalizing."

 

[Warwick1991]

Do we know if the Sherman’s received money in judgement or were the companies responsible for all costs to fix the problems described as errors in the design? And completed to BS level of expectations. Repairing is never as good as new, it costs more money to repair versus to build new in many situations.

According to articles linked a little farther back in the thread, the Shermans received $2 million in damages, out of a total construction cost of $2.6 million. They sued the architect, the interior designer, and at least 3 contractors. Two of the contractors - one was a HVAC contractor - fought back vigorously, and did not settle. The major construction problems - I think they were mainly water intrusion problems - were at the pool, tennis court and garage areas. Without genuine construction flaws of some type, the Shermans would not have prevailed. The architect and general contractor would generally have the most liability in these situations, as they are parties who specify and execute waterproofing, roofing and flashing, among other issues. The architect hires structural engineers, so the architect's liability insurance can face suits for structural defects.

It is difficult for us to say what was wrong with the Sherman house without seeing copies of reports and documents from the 2006 case. One thing that stands out to me is that that the Shermans sued the interior designer, Jack Winston. Interior designers do not have a role in waterproofing and roofing, and make aesthetic choices that are not usually fundamental to building performance. To me, the number of parties sued suggests that the Shermans included companies who were not responsible for construction problems, along with those who were responsible. This cost of litigation means that those unjustly sued will settle with the plaintiffs, because litigation can be unaffordable. The contractors who were sued unsuccessfully still faced substantial legal costs, and we don't know if their insurer covered those costs.

 

[dotr]

• By Tamar Harris December 19, 2017

Barry and Honey Sherman sued builders of North York home

After litigation against the house’s designers and builders, the Shermans recouped $2 million of the contracted amount to construct the home, according to a 2006 judgment.

www.thestar.com

rbbm
'After litigation against the house’s designers and builders, they wound up recouping $2 million of the contracted amount to construct the home, according to a 2006 judgment''

''They went on to sue at least five of the people and companies involved in the home’s design and construction, including Jack Winston Designs, Thomas Marzotto Architects and Ewing Construction.
All but two settled.
The remaining two defendants, 21 Degrees Heating and Air Conditioning and Walter Kenyon of Walter Kenyon Designs, had designed the home’s heating and air conditioning system.
The Shermans sued 21 Degrees and Kenyon for negligence related to the design of the HVAC system, and 21 Degrees for breach of contract.''

 

[Clark2002]

According to articles linked a little farther back in the thread, the Shermans received $2 million in damages, out of a total construction cost of $2.6 million. They sued the architect, the interior designer, and at least 3 contractors. Two of the contractors - one was a HVAC contractor - fought back vigorously, and did not settle. The major construction problems - I think they were mainly water intrusion problems - were at the pool, tennis court and garage areas. Without genuine construction flaws of some type, the Shermans would not have prevailed. The architect and general contractor would generally have the most liability in these situations, as they are parties who specify and execute waterproofing, roofing and flashing, among other issues. The architect hires structural engineers, so the architect's liability insurance can face suits for structural defects.

It is difficult for us to say what was wrong with the Sherman house without seeing copies of reports and documents from the 2006 case. One thing that stands out to me is that that the Shermans sued the interior designer, Jack Winston. Interior designers do not have a role in waterproofing and roofing, and make aesthetic choices that are not usually fundamental to building performance. To me, the number of parties sued suggests that the Shermans included companies who were not responsible for construction problems, along with those who were responsible. This cost of litigation means that those unjustly sued will settle with the plaintiffs, because litigation can be unaffordable. The contractors who were sued unsuccessfully still faced substantial legal costs, and we don't know if their insurer covered those costs.

I’m not sure if I can mention other sites here but if you search canlii for Honey Sherman you can see that the case was still ongoing in 2006 and you will see more details.

 

[Warwick1991]

I’m not sure if I can mention other sites here but if you search canlii for Honey Sherman you can see that the case was still ongoing in 2006 and you will see more details.

I looked at the Canlii site, but so far I only found the case against 21 Degrees Heating and Air Conditioning. Sherman did not get a substantial amount from 21 Degrees.

 

[Clark2002]

I looked at the Canlii site, but so far I only found the case against 21 Degrees Heating and Air Conditioning. Sherman did not get a substantial amount from 21 Degrees.

I was more meaning details in the way of it talking about the different contractors involved and what the issue was in the 21 degrees case.
Also, the house was built in 1990 and the last case that I see regarding 21 degrees was in 2008, how was this still going on almost 20 years after the house was built??

 

[FromGermany1]

I’m not sure if I can mention other sites here but if you search canlii for Honey Sherman you can see that the case was still ongoing in 2006 and you will see more details.

Why Honey, I wonder.

 

[Bobbi Pearl]

Why Honey, I wonder.

I believe it was Honey and her sister listed on the home ownership deed. Her sister was a director or something

 

[FromGermany1]

I believe it was Honey and her sister listed on the home ownership deed. Her sister was a director or something

I thought, Honey didn't own, and now with the new mansion she would have been the owner for the first time. Why was it important and was emphasized so much to have her own money ($500 mil) and build HER magnificent house, if the old home was already her's also? Whether money from Barry's bank account or money from Honey's bank account - where is the difference, if in any case the money came from Barry?
Having an overview over all the building costs and costs for interior decoration payed from one special bank account, that I do understand. But I always had the impression, this GIFT of MONEY (for the future home) would have been such an extraordinary gesture by Barry. Now it seems to me like shoveling money around for reasons.
I am too stupid for these transactions, I admit.

 

[Lexiintoronto]

I thought, Honey didn't own, and now with the new mansion she would have been the owner for the first time. Why was it important and was emphasized so much to have her own money ($500 mil) and build HER magnificent house, if the old home was already her's also? Whether money from Barry's bank account or money from Honey's bank account - where is the difference, if in any case the money came from Barry?
Having an overview over all the building costs and costs for interior decoration payed from one special bank account, that I do understand. But I always had the impression, this GIFT of MONEY (for the future home) would have been such an extraordinary gesture by Barry. Now it seems to me like shoveling money around for reasons.
I am too stupid for these transactions, I admit.

Maybe that money is the key to this. If Barry went to liquidate hundreds of millions to give to Honey and pay his lawsuit loss, maybe there was an issue. Maybe the funds were no longer there, or someone objected to the funds being used that way. They felt it was theirs.

That might explain why the police served the last warrant and why the estate is embedded in the investigation. Also why both Honey and Barry were targeted. Honey was busy communicating with her lawyers even on the day of the murders. That may also explain that, imo.

 

[FromGermany1]

Maybe that money is the key to this. If Barry went to liquidate hundreds of millions to give to Honey and pay his lawsuit loss, maybe there was an issue. Maybe the funds were no longer there, or someone objected to the funds being used that way. They felt it was theirs.

That might explain why the police served the last warrant and why the estate is embedded in the investigation. Also why both Honey and Barry were targeted. Honey was busy communicating with her lawyers even on the day of the murders. That may also explain that, imo.

bbm
Do you mean: .... and didn't want to pay his lawsuit loss?

 

[Lexiintoronto]

bbm
Do you mean: .... and didn't want to pay his lawsuit loss?

IMO—
No, I think he was going to liquidate investments and pay both the lawsuit loss and gift some to Honey. I think he was going to negotiate a smaller amount for the lawsuit bill which is what happened after his death. I know BK said Barry wasn’t going to pay it, but maybe he meant the entire $580M. Otherwise there wouldn’t have been that much effort by AG finding ways to cut costs and improve their financial position.

Barry was talking about paying the loss to JS and there was one round of layoffs at Apotex and another about to happen so that’s a big sign he knew he’d have to liquidate some money and pay the debts.

The mystery to me is the bank loan AG said Apotex had that was at risk of being called.

 

[dotr]

Is this of any consequence?

https://kmlaw.ca/wp-content/uploads/2023/12/Reasons_for_Decision_Certification_Phase_1_.Jurisdiction.Strike_Perell_J_December_1_2023.pdf

''CITATION: Gebien v. Apotex Inc''
''[1] In the misogynistic Greek creation myth of Pandora’s Box, the cause of evil, including plagues innumerable, is attributed to the deceitfulness of Pandora who opened a box and released around the world countless illnesses and miseries. In this proposed Pandora’s Box of a class action, the opioid epidemic, an epidemic that has caused widespread pain, misery, and death around the world, is attributed to the deceitfulness and avarice of the Defendants who manufactured and distributed Opioids''

''[53] Thus, Dr. Gebien seeks to represent a class of all persons in Canada who were prescribed Opioids manufactured, marketed, or distributed by the Defendants from January 1, 1996 to the present day and who suffer or have suffered from Opioid Use Disorder.[54] “Opioid Use Disorder” means use of Opioids resulting in: (a) giving up important social occupation or recreational activities; (b) persistent desire or unsuccessful efforts to reduce Opioid use; (c) failure to fulfill occupational, scholastics or home life obligations; (d) persistent or recurrent social or interpersonal problems; (e) impairment in physically hazardous situations;(f) drug tolerance requiring use of larger amounts of Opioids than intended; (g) a persistent or recurrent physical or psychological problems; or (h) Opioid withdrawal syndrome''