CANADA Canada - Billionaire Couple Barry & Honey Sherman Murdered @ Home - Toronto #20

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I didn’t say she didn’t have a will. I said her and/Barry’s discussions with DH about updating wills/estate planning/gifts may be subject to privilege.

Honey saying she was updating her will doesn’t mean that was completed. The call from DH suggests in fact it wasn’t — otherwise why the late night call/meeting? Perhaps the timing of the murders is related to this.

Assuming Honey had a will before, which she was updating, we have no idea:
1) if DH was involved with that or had a copy of the earlier will;
2) who had a copy;
3) if she had terminated it (seems unusual without signing a new one but possible if she was unhappy with its terms)
4) if she terminated it and wrote a handwritten holograph will as a temporary replacement (possible as a bridge-and possible that it could go missing)

I think the timing of DH’s 9pm call is not a coincidence, meaning —at a minimum— major changes were afoot that others did not like.

If I were DH I would have obtained advice from the Law Society or legal counsel about what if anything he could do.

If the executors/those controlling Apotex (effectively the same people) are left as the ones instructing the counsel vetting privilege, it also strikes me that they could be in a conflict situation — ie not wanting this info to come to light (eg., JS, BK). Even if the new will wasn’t signed, it may not play well from lots of perspectives (motive, MS, etc) to have it come out, for example, that they intended to leave millions to charity, to MS, etc.
The information provided below does not constitute any assertions of fact with regards to the guilt or action of anyone mentioned. It is conjecture, provided for theoretical, educational, and entertainment purposes. I assume no legal responsibility for the accuracy or correctness of any facts or claims mentioned or for any consequences of relying on any details included. Any theory of supposed action by any party is merely alleged. All narrative characterization is speculative.


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You didn't say she didn't have a will but the musing about signed versus not signed misses the point which is that there was a will. All evidence we have alludes to the fact she had a will and was in frequent communication with DH in the lead up. That is the point. It exists. Do you agree she had a legally viable will? It seems you do based on your later commentary. We also know DH was fanatically opposed to simple wills. That is exactly why HS will is so important. Whoever did it had inside info on numerous fronts. The will was the final piece of the crime. Securing it or destroying it.
 
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Thanks. So the police officer went to the house about 12 hours after the murders likely took place but we don't know what time the call was made. I always assumed Honey made the call as she was grabbed but maybe not. Maybe it was Barry? Maybe neither?
BS getting off a call is in no way congruent with the evidence we have. He was ambushed immediately. HS on the other hand, could have got a call off, based on the available forensic evidence. Found with her outside attire on, phone found disheveled on the floor of a room she never used but one close to the front of the house. Good spot to barricade yourself upon getting free momentarily.

All this conjecture about the 911 call, while interesting, I think has been misleading and incongruent with likelihoods.

The police get a vague 911 call from the neighbor who sees something the next day on their camera? The police bungle it and go 10 houses down the road? Then they set up an experiment calling 911 from various locations, including the estate? KD has opined on this - TPS tried to say it was routine. Yeah, right.

If HS was anything she was determined. She wasn't going down without a fight. Whatever happened with the facial injuries, likely supports this. She was stronger than Barry and worked out a lot. The killer(s) may have underestimated that...
 
Does anyone know the law in Ontario concerning a lawyer revealing confidential lawyer-client information to LE after the death of a client, when LE is investigating murder? I think maybe that lawyer, who tried to reach Barry and Honey the night of their murder, had important info that he shared with LE, and probably paperwork, as well. That would prove possible motive, but not be enough to make an arrest.

Apparently Apotex and the lawyers for the estates of Honey and Barry & the Attorney General agreed that there was legally privileged information that the police could not review. (Including HS’s emails to lawyer DH of Blaneys’ who had worked on the Sherman estate, per KD.)

The police wanted to search Barry’s office, computer, his cell phone and three other electronic devices (it seems like one was Honey’s phone & there were two iPads found in the master bedroom, maybe those are the devices, imo), but the lawyers for both estates and Apotex were concerned about privileged information that may have been within them.

“The ministry lawyers agreed “to a protocol by which Goodmans LLP, acting for Apotex and for the estate trustees of Bernard (Barry) Sherman and Honey Sherman, will review the data extracted from the five devices first, to ensure legal privileges are protected, before the data are released to investigators,” reads a statement describing the protocol unsealed following a Toronto Star application in court.

Rare though this arrangement is in a homicide investigation, the concept of legal privilege is recognized by the highest court in Canada and is increasingly an issue in many investigations.”
www.thestar.com

Lawyers for Ontario, Apotex struck deal on what detectives could access in Sherman murder investigation. It took one month

Documents unsealed by a judge last week reveal details of legal wrangling that took place over what detectives could access in their investigation of the murders of Honey and Barry Sherman.
www.thestar.com
www.thestar.com

In his last podcast (#9), KD said in an early interview with MS, she told him that lawyer Doug Hendler of ‘ Blaneys’ ’ helped plan the Shermans’ estate. Then he found that court records showed HS was emailing someone ‘ @Blaneys’ ’ before her death, including that last Wednesday. DH also called Barry at 9:01 that evening. (I searched, and the only match I found was Doug Hendler of Blaney McMurtry LLP. The firm uses the nickname ‘ Blaneys’ ’).

But does Doug Hendler have a duty to disclose possible evidence?

I don’t know, but a while back we were discussing possible physical evidence that the Greenspan team found. They had to be compelled by TPS lawyers to turn it over to the police. SB helped explain it in an earlier post:

The legal rules and language are like Kryptonite to me. Here is the link to the Law Society of Ontario rules: Complete Rules of Professional Conduct | Law Society of Ontario
 
The information provided below does not constitute any assertions of fact with regards to the guilt or action of anyone mentioned. It is conjecture, provided for theoretical, educational, and entertainment purposes. I assume no legal responsibility for the accuracy or correctness of any facts or claims mentioned or for any consequences of relying on any details included. Any theory of supposed action by any party is merely alleged. All narrative characterization is speculative.


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You didn't say she didn't have a will but the musing about signed versus not signed misses the point which is that there was a will. All evidence we have alludes to the fact she had a will and was in frequent communication with DH in the lead up. That is the point. It exists. Do you agree she had a legally viable will? It seems you do based on your later commentary. We also know DH was fanatically opposed to simple wills. That is exactly why HS will is so important. Whoever did it had inside info on numerous fronts. The will was the final piece of the crime. Securing it or destroying it.
I have no idea - and neither do you unless you have access to more information than anyone else does. It is certainly possible or even likely she had a will. Whether or not she terminated it or destroyed it pending her new will, we don’t know. Probably not, but we don’t know. Whether this would have made much difference is unclear, as they died at the same time and by all accounts the vast majority of the wealth was owned by Barry. Changes to Barry’s will or a massive gift from Barry to Honey/MS would be more material to the division of the estate IMO than changes to Honey’s will.
 
The information provided below does not constitute any assertions of fact with regards to the guilt or action of anyone mentioned. It is conjecture, provided for theoretical, educational, and entertainment purposes. I assume no legal responsibility for the accuracy or correctness of any facts or claims mentioned or for any consequences of relying on any details included. Any theory of supposed action by any party is merely alleged. All narrative characterization is speculative.

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I've always said that KD is the key. He is too credible as a reporter. Look at how he treated the case versus CBC, who actually end by floating the murder suicide theory in light of BS philosophical writings. Insane. He had told JK he couldn't die until 120. He told JD he needed him to sign on for the final five years before BS sold Apotex. He wasn't in a frame of mind to kill himself. AG advised BS to sell, and he point blank responded that he needed five years. We also know he parroted Warren Buffet. Interesting thing with Buffet, his wife was also a philanthropist. She wanted money when he had lots. His response? Wait. His thinking was yes we have billions to give but I know compound interest and my wife does not, that is what he said. Give me some time and I will balloon the value, allowing you to give more. Similarly, BS had an expansion plan that would balloon the value. BS and HS therefore may have seen the writing on the wall. They were getting old. Succession plans were underway. This likely triggered intrigue into the will stuff in light of all the financial turmoil. Who would have known about this?

KD is legit. He is on record now saying he has a specific suspect(s) in mind and has also said he believes that TPS have the same lead target in the probe. Recall, Yim tells KD about JS new GS building on the east side during a recess in court. KD has told us this was either 1) a tip or 2) an attempt to see what KD knew. Both suggest something?

I have made clear that the above needs to be seen in context. What overall story is KD telling. Who hasn't he ruled out. And where does he lead us in Succession, the last episode.

Near the end of the episode, he tells of AK going to BG in April of 2019, "around" the time she goes to police. He goes on to read an email from AK to BG.

"There are many parallels here. Jon was used to bullying my dad into giving him money. My dad would often ask Jon to take out financing for his GS buldings. But Jon would refuse and kick and scream until my dad gave in. I have been avodiing Jon since December 2018 when he and AP made it very obvious that they are money hungry monsters."

A few notes. AK provided this email, no doubt. BG did not. Also KD doesn't reveal the entire thing. We know that AK is very much on the case, giving stuff to TPS. She also likely has a favorable view of KD. Yes, he digs into their lives, but he is also going to be looked at as a key person should this ever be solved. He's kept the case alive. Totally congruent with AK press releases over time, she wants this to keep going. But what would be the context of that email chain? Her use of parallel here seems paramount. KD seems to have revealed, with this email, a potential argument AK was making to BG. Why else use parallel that way? It sticks out like a sore thumb. Oh, and then BG suddenly runs away from the case... fully dissociating himself.
 
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I have no idea - and neither do you unless you have access to more information than anyone else does. It is certainly possible or even likely she had a will. Whether or not she terminated it or destroyed it pending her new will, we don’t know. Probably not, but we don’t know. Whether this would have made much difference is unclear, as they died at the same time and by all accounts the vast majority of the wealth was owned by Barry. Changes to Barry’s will or a massive gift from Barry to Honey/MS would be more material to the division of the estate IMO than changes to Honey’s will.
The information provided below does not constitute any assertions of fact with regards to the guilt or action of anyone mentioned. It is conjecture, provided for theoretical, educational, and entertainment purposes. I assume no legal responsibility for the accuracy or correctness of any facts or claims mentioned or for any consequences of relying on any details included. Any theory of supposed action by any party is merely alleged. All narrative characterization is speculative.

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With respect, you aren't exactly thinking like the killers would have...had they been embedded in the estate succession planning...

It raises a silly question we can't answer but also one not addressed. Was there any evidence that HS/BS started to have more concrete fears? Crave trailer clearly states a family member told BS to "watch his back"...

Sure, he didn't care about dying. But he would logically have interest in a will. He had one for years and juggled around trustees. Did something move him to get more serious? To turn his mind more fully to that issue? To ensure regardless of any outcome, that HS wishes and the deal he made with her was honored? Complete conjecture, but interesting to contemplate.

Is it possible that BS lost faith in JS totally in the lead up? And then that turned his mind to more carefully crafting the succession plan. Again, he was actively planning with JD for the next five years. He also commented that he often contemplated his own mortality. He may have been holding out hope JS was going to change. His comments to JS show that he came to terms with JS disinterest in Apotex, etc. Maybe there was more of a dispute that isn't public knowledge.

One must also consider the fact that we do not really have much context for the succession planning in the month prior. BS knew about JS history, as in trying to deem BS incapable. He also had that weird email exhange about protecting the wealth for future generations of Shermans. That, in addition to what is unknown about their communications, the whole AP thing Barry was off put by, etc. And, watch your back...

Two things: the public has way less than police and the police have stated the estate is embedded in the probe...
 
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Well this thread has woken up and I have to say, it's a tribute to everyone here for speaking respectfully to one another. Whenever I check out twitter or FB, the overriding comments are to blame Trudeau or make it about Hydroxychloroquin.

I listened to episode 9 again yesterday. Interesting that a) JS and FM were having a baby shower for their upcoming children. It seems rather tacky that these multi-billionaires were doing this.

Also interesting is that JS emailed AK and uninvited her to the baby shower. So far he has removed JK, MS and hopes to get rid of AG. It seems he doesn't have a good relationship with his other 2 sisters. I can't help but think of Lori Vallow getting rid of so many people in her life in order to get what she wants. She obviously went to the extreme by having them killed but there is something about getting rid of the perceived obstacles in order to get control of things.

MOO
 
Yes. But she "updated her will". The implication, which KD basically agrees with, is that the will did exist...

DH was also a fanatic about not having boiler plate wills. In his q&a he is pretty clear...He was fanatical in that interview...

"Everybody needs a will! And you can’t do a boiler plate will, where you simply leave everything to your wife or, failing that, to your children. Businesses are usually more complex than people think."

This is a quote from DH. Do you really think she had no will?
If there was a will, why has no lawyer produced it?

If there was a will, somebody had to witness it, why has that person not spoken up, no 'privilege' between witness and client.

I believe a lawyer has an obligation to present a will in his possession to the proper authorities if he is aware his client is deceased. It only makes sense.
 
From the final minutes of KDs last episode:

"I would expect that yes the police looked at every family member including me."

"That’s an email Jonathan sent to me just before our garage interview. I think a lot about that email and about our five hour talk. You’ve heard me speak about the estate and the beneficiaries. Way back when I began this investigation, Sherman lawyer, Brian Greenspan told me that in any homicide investigation police start at the centre and move out. This has got me thinking what if the killers are people with some connection to one or all of the four children and they saw an opportunity to help themselves financially in the hope that if money flowed to the children it might flow to them."
 
The information provided below does not constitute any assertions of fact with regards to the guilt or action of anyone mentioned. It is conjecture, provided for theoretical, educational, and entertainment purposes. I assume no legal responsibility for the accuracy or correctness of any facts or claims mentioned or for any consequences of relying on any details included. Any theory of supposed action by any party is merely alleged. All narrative characterization is speculative.


-------------------------

You didn't say she didn't have a will but the musing about signed versus not signed misses the point which is that there was a will. All evidence we have alludes to the fact she had a will and was in frequent communication with DH in the lead up. That is the point. It exists. Do you agree she had a legally viable will? It seems you do based on your later commentary. We also know DH was fanatically opposed to simple wills. That is exactly why HS will is so important. Whoever did it had inside info on numerous fronts. The will was the final piece of the crime. Securing it or destroying it.

HS having and updating a will seems most likely, but DH also deals with succession, estate planing and trusts etc. It may not have been a will HS was discussing with DH, but that alleged $500 million transfer and a trust set up, imo.
 
The information provided below does not constitute any assertions of fact with regards to the guilt or action of anyone mentioned. It is conjecture, provided for theoretical, educational, and entertainment purposes. I assume no legal responsibility for the accuracy or correctness of any facts or claims mentioned or for any consequences of relying on any details included. Any theory of supposed action by any party is merely alleged. All narrative characterization is speculative.

------------------


I've always said that KD is the key. He is too credible as a reporter. Look at how he treated the case versus CBC, who actually end by floating the murder suicide theory in light of BS philosophical writings. Insane. He had told JK he couldn't die until 120. He told JD he needed him to sign on for the final five years before BS sold Apotex. He wasn't in a frame of mind to kill himself. AG advised BS to sell, and he point blank responded that he needed five years. We also know he parroted Warren Buffet. Interesting thing with Buffet, his wife was also a philanthropist. She wanted money when he had lots. His response? Wait. His thinking was yes we have billions to give but I know compound interest and my wife does not, that is what he said. Give me some time and I will balloon the value, allowing you to give more. Similarly, BS had an expansion plan that would balloon the value. BS and HS therefore may have seen the writing on the wall. They were getting old. Succession plans were underway. This likely triggered intrigue into the will stuff in light of all the financial turmoil. Who would have known about this?

KD is legit. He is on record now saying he has a specific suspect(s) in mind and has also said he believes that TPS have the same lead target in the probe. Recall, Yim tells KD about JS new GS building on the east side during a recess in court. KD has told us this was either 1) a tip or 2) an attempt to see what KD knew. Both suggest something?

I have made clear that the above needs to be seen in context. What overall story is KD telling. Who hasn't he ruled out. And where does he lead us in Succession, the last episode.

Near the end of the episode, he tells of AK going to BG in April of 2019, "around" the time she goes to police. He goes on to read an email from AK to BG.

"There are many parallels here. Jon was used to bullying my dad into giving him money. My dad would often ask Jon to take out financing for his GS buldings. But Jon would refuse and kick and scream until my dad gave in. I have been avodiing Jon since December 2018 when he and AP made it very obvious that they are money hungry monsters."

A few notes. AK provided this email, no doubt. BG did not. Also KD doesn't reveal the entire thing. We know that AK is very much on the case, giving stuff to TPS. She also likely has a favorable view of KD. Yes, he digs into their lives, but he is also going to be looked at as a key person should this ever be solved. He's kept the case alive. Totally congruent with AK press releases over time, she wants this to keep going. But what would be the context of that email chain? Her use of parallel here seems paramount. KD seems to have revealed, with this email, a potential argument AK was making to BG. Why else use parallel that way? It sticks out like a sore thumb. Oh, and then BG suddenly runs away from the case... fully dissociating himself.
Please forgive me . Who is BG ?
 
If there was a will, why has no lawyer produced it?

If there was a will, somebody had to witness it, why has that person not spoken up, no 'privilege' between witness and client.

I believe a lawyer has an obligation to present a will in his possession to the proper authorities if he is aware his client is deceased. It only makes sense.
KD talked with a "Service Provider" of HS, who said, in a very specific and credible way (mentioning where they met that day) that she had just updated her will. And that she was making amendments. There is no credible evidence that HS will did not exist. The evidence suggests it existed. Everything else, based on info we have now, is hocus pocus.
 
HS having and updating a will seems most likely, but DH also deals with succession, estate planing and trusts etc. It may not have been a will HS was discussing with DH, but that alleged $500 million transfer and a trust set up, imo.
You're assuming that those details could be discussed absent a will. Again, DH was an absolute zealot on wills. HS had a will?
 
KD talked with a "Service Provider" of HS, who said, in a very specific and credible way (mentioning where they met that day) that she had just updated her will. And that she was making amendments. There is no credible evidence that HS will did not exist. The evidence suggests it existed. Everything else, based on info we have now, is hocus pocus.

You're assuming that those details could be discussed absent a will. Again, DH was an absolute zealot on wills. HS had a will?
“According to the estate records, dated June 2018, Honey died “intestate” — meaning she had no will.” Barry Sherman’s will divided his estate among Barry and Honey’s four kids when they reach 35 years of age

There’s a witness who said she had a will, and she was communicating with a lawyer know for estate planning, but despite that she died intestate.
 
Is it possible the split had to do with Alex’s concerns about JS, and BK’s reaction in light of BK’s and JS’s friendship?
Unfortunately, this marriage failed too, fortunately each groom came away with a few extra bucks, imo, speculation.

''Police also interviewed Jared Render, who at the time was Kaelen’s fiancé. Render tells police Barry is very generous and is paying for the entire wedding (Kaelen and Jared were married and divorced in the space of six months, after the Sherman funeral.) Render says he had become close to the Shermans through Kaelen, and Barry helped him get a job working as an electrician for his pharmaceutical firm Apotex and also helped Honey out with home technical issues.''
 
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