Canada - Lucas Fowler, Chynna Deese, and Leonard Dyck, all murdered, Alaska Hwy, BC, Jul 2019 #13

[NJSleuth91]

We may never know the details. But I believe they didn't just randomly decided to go and kill people. They ended up in a situation, got desperate and had to murder people, and after that they just had to go down and down. Kind of like Walter White in Breaking Bad. I don't think they killed people for mental issues or just for the sake of killing. They didn't harm the man who helped them get their car out of the mud although they had the perfect opportunity. I don't think they were evil serial killers. Just two kids (yes, kids) going after some dangerous adventure, and things went horribly wrong. Five lives wasted. What a shame...

Interesting theory. I posted an article here a few days ago where a criminologist said he didn't think the killings were planned based on their behavior, and that it was probably a robbery gone wrong or something like that and now they were fleeing in a panic.

I think there is some evidence that points to that. For example if it was a planned killing spree, they could have taken out a lot more victims, especially during their cross-country trip, and they could have gotten away with it fairly easily. Also, they really didn't seem like they were having fun with any of this at all from witness descriptions. I know my husband said they were probably just idiots, but...a lot of killers are dumb and still get away with it. The Green River killer had an IQ of like 80 and he got away with it for decades, and that wasn't even as remote of an area. I think if it was planned, with how sloppy these two were, there would be some sign of it in their online and phone activity, like messages they sent to each other or something. If there's no evidence of that, then to me that indicates it most likely was a spur of the moment decision and maybe murder was not even the intended objective here.

 

[adjjones]

My guess is they found or stole the boat and hit a rock dead on in rapids, the boat damage indicates straight on impact at high speed. The boat could have immediately flipped and become pinned, possibly for days before releasing and bodies could have been trapped underneath. This might explain the lack of noticing the boat or debris until a few days ago. In river rapid accidents a pinned boat/body is pretty common.

 

[otto]

I think the claims of a 3rd person are ridiculous but I’m just using it to point out that the possibility that the keys are evidence shouldn’t be a fringe belief

It's obvious that RCMP had challenges in securing crime scenes around Gillam. They specifically requested numerous times that media not publish photos of their location, and sure enough the media published photos of their locations during the York Landing search.

RCMP eventually set up road blocks well away from search areas to manage media.

We know that they searched the Rav4 location, and they returned to that area after the boat was found. Hopefully media did not disturb the scene too much.

We know that if media could access the location where the bodies were found, they were be standing in the crime scene taking photos today.

 

[sprucetip]

Just in case, this was meant as a joke

I laughed out loud!

 

[scrappinkat]

My guess is they found or stole the boat and hit a rock dead on in rapids, the boat damage indicates straight on impact at high speed. The boat could have immediately flipped and become pinned, possibly for days before releasing and bodies could have been trapped underneath. This might explain the lack of noticing the boat or debris until a few days ago. In river rapid accidents a pinned boat/body is pretty common.

Yes but then how did those bodies end up on the shore in dense brush??

 

[dixiegirl1035]

My guess is they found or stole the boat and hit a rock dead on in rapids, the boat damage indicates straight on impact at high speed. The boat could have immediately flipped and become pinned, possibly for days before releasing and bodies could have been trapped underneath. This might explain the lack of noticing the boat or debris until a few days ago. In river rapid accidents a pinned boat/body is pretty common.

Interesting, as to me the boat was extremely dented on the left hand side. I would not have said that it did a head-on collision from the photo that I saw. I'm trying to find a link to the photo of the boat but I cannot. But it was posted here before.

 

[dixiegirl1035]

SBM We know that if media could access the location where the bodies were found, they were be standing in the crime scene taking photos today.

Yep, reminds me of the newscaster who stood on the ashes in the case of MacKenzie "Kenzie" Lueck

 

[scrappinkat]

It was mentioned earlier that FBI were also involved in attempts to track down the suspects. Is this due to Chynna being a US citizen? Would there be other reasons they were involved, any suggestions what they could be?

 

[webbie]

I laughed out loud!

Glad to know
I wasn't sure how my silly comment would be perceived

 

[adjjones]

The boat image shows buckling to the outside on both sides, which to me indicates strong front force impact. The dams do release but not sure what the meter fluctuations are but a high release day could have floated the pinned boat/ bodies days after impact, then deposited lighter bodies in bush near a shallow bend. While it has not been specified I would think "in the bush" could mean only a few feet in but so trapped they would not move once water fell again.

 

[10ofRods]

I don't know.
And neither do you...
I mean about anything, because police keep all kinds of info to themselves. To me a key question hasn't been answered: when was LD killed? (not when was he found) and when was his last known sighting alive?
I also think it's key to know specifically when K&B left PA (date and time) not just 12 July.
Also, what they took with them.
People seem to be focusing on the end of this tragedy. It ended in a way that was very public, and easy to speculate about/criticize/discuss: there are some concrete people, places and things that we can ponder. IMO what they were up to hours, days or weeks before they left is more indicative of motive, ability, mindset, etc. And that is the stuff that LE might or might not release, and reporters might or might not pursue through a freedom of information request.
It's also easier to ask and answer "why would they go here or do that, etc" than to ask and answer what our role is in a society/culture that made these two and what's with our fascination after the fact...
Just to be clear, these are rhetorical questions and I'm wondering if anyone else is puzzling this out on this level...

Count me in, in puzzling over this. It's the Summer of 2019 and we have a series of crimes by millenials (and I would love to know whether K/B used the word, whether they hated the word, and how they saw themselves within that generation). In the US, we're seeing an uptick in suicide among millenials. Many US colleges do an annual survey on mental health, and both suicide attempts and procurement of the means of suicide are up, three years running. So what's up? Extensive suicide is part of this picture (where the suicidal person takes out other people) has been studied, but much more needs to be done. "I want to die and I want to take people with me" can be consciously worked out (or not).

When this story first unfolded, it seemed to me that even if some specific interactions can be established between K/B and their victims (attempted robbery, desire to steal food and camping equipment, etc), K/B may have hated society in general (hence the flight to the North) and all people (but by leaving their hometown, they avoided giving in to impulses to harm their "own people"). I think they wanted to kill and to show their intense hatred for society and social norms. They also wanted to die.

One anthropologist, who was on staff at a workplace shooting (mental health facility, shooter was a worker, male, and depressed) developed a rubric that indicates in many cases, suicidal people are at risk for being perpetrators of homicide. Killing any human (including self) violates a major, universal taboo. Someone who is willing to violate taboos (whether universal or local) and kill (anyone) is...willing to kill humans. They are beyond that point. Most of us are not.

Garden variety antisocial types (often called sociopaths in popular culture) are usually into self-preservation, not suicide. Suicidal persons whose ideation includes killing others are not uncommon, although clinical studies on the subject aren't adequate.

Is this becoming more common in the general population? The writings or alleged ideas of some of these killers (mostly shooters, btw) are not out of the blue. Thousands of other people hold similar views (and connect on the internet in various ways, creating much larger subcultures than would have been possible 50 years ago).

With Canada's abhorrence of gun culture, the actions of K/B are in a completely different context than similar crimes in the US, IMO. But...with the blurring of national culture through internet culture, perhaps K/B were less Canadian and more part of some global youth culture of their own choosing. I'd love to know.

Today, everyone can choose (and re-choose) the cultures to which they wish to belong.

 

[thebedbug]

I take it we still don't know if the bodies were away from the river in a place they might've tried to take shelter OR lying amid the brush as if they had been washed there?

 

[sprucetip]

I doubt that a public inquiry is needed. That's usually reserved for situations where the outcome is questionable. In this case, the only criticism is based on early reporting of the suspicious deaths of two unidentified people near Liard Hot Springs.

The suspicious deaths were immediately reported on July 16. It could not be done any faster.

The unidentified victims could have been drug related, domestic, or many other possibilities. The only reason people are up in arms is because they were tourists. However, because the victim's ID was missing and the van could not be connected to the victims, no one knew they were tourists for 3 days. How they were killed made no difference, as domestic and drug related murders also involve guns. Until the victims were identified, there was nothing outstanding about the murders and no reason to make an international announcement.

I agree that there will likely be an internal review to determine areas for improvement.

No, you are completely wrong about why people got "up in arms" about this. As someone who lives in the area and as someone else has mentioned, random murders by "gun violence" are very uncommon here. This caught our attention because they were two suspicious deaths on the highway. It did not matter that they were tourists. These ARE outstanding deaths, because they are murders on a well traveled highway that sees very little (if any!) of this.

 

[otto]

Interesting, as to me the boat was extremely dented on the left hand side. I would not have said that it did a head-on collision from the photo that I saw. I'm trying to find a link to the photo of the boat but I cannot. But it was posted here before.

From RCMP twitter

 

[FactFinder3000]

Yes, I quite agree, 10ofRods. I think they were suicidal all along, in the sense that it was always seen as their ultimate way out.

 

[sprucetip]

That's good to know. Are they fairly prompt about uploading? I am on the fence about watching AS's interview. I'll probably cave and watch it because I can't help myself. But I also might be geo-blocked and not able to view it, anyway. LOL

Not sure how fast they are, I'm not aware of when anything airs originally. But yeah, the interview with AS looks SO sensational, not sure I want to watch it either.

 

[otto]

It was mentioned earlier that FBI were also involved in attempts to track down the suspects. Is this due to Chynna being a US citizen? Would there be other reasons they were involved, any suggestions what they could be?

FBI and RCMP often work together behind the scenes.

 

[sprucetip]

What sort of warning would you expect?

Media reported on July 16 that the RCMP Major Crime Unit was investigating two suspicious deaths on the Alaska Hwy. Canadians know what that means, and tourists do have a responsibility to be familiar with the country they are visiting.

Information about the suspicious deaths (meaning murders) was available to Dr Leonard Dyck on July 16. He was killed near Dease Lake on July 19. If he thought he was in danger, he would not have been there. Suspicious deaths along a northern BC highway never means that everyone across BC or Canada should be worried.

I would have expected a warning that same day, July 15. Not 24hrs later.

Northern BC, northern Alberta, Yukon and Alaska are all connected very well because of the highways despite the huge distances. Everyone in this area should have been warned. And not just "oh jeez, suspicious deaths" but a warning that there may be a killer on the hwy.

 

[gitana1]

Highway 97 and Highway 37 connect at Watson Lake, which is almost halfway between the murder sites. There should have been some warning to drivers on both highways, to be cautious at stops.

Why? All they knew was two young people were found dead outside a van. It could've been murder suicide. It could've been someone they knew who was following them or caravanning with them.

There is no reason IMO to believe that everyone in all of Canada on remote highways would be in danger because two people were found dead somewhere and the random death of two people suddenly indicates a serial killer is on the loose.

I get the concerns. But I'm not seeing a failure here with this at the moment. If they knew they had possible serial killers on their hands and hid that evidence I would have an issue with that.

In retrospect everything is much clearer than it is in the moment. We can see that there were two disturbed young adults who committed different murders along a long stretch of terrain and were a danger to the nation. At the time I'm not seeing how that could've been concluded.

I'm not even seeing how it could be concluded that a couple of violent highway robber/murderers were afoot. Not at that moment. Because to my knowledge they didn't steal anything from Lucas and Chynna?

So why would the RCMP conclude that it was dangerous to be on all the highways of Canada and that drivers need to be cautious based on one suspicious apparent homicide?

It's not computing to me although I see how in retrospect we can conclude that more warnings should've been given.

But at the time it takes a bit to figure out what's happened. Why. And whether there's a general danger.

Typically, murders are isolated events and victims are targeted for specific reasons. One event that includes two homicides usually doesn't indicate a pattern or a threat to the general public.

 

[sprucetip]

Here's my theory of what was their motive and what happened:

They didn't go to Whitehorse to find work. They were doing something illegal. I don't know what, maybe drugs or guns... something we may never know but definitely illegal. They had the evidence of their crime in their car, and were scared that the police might find the evidence and they get into trouble. They wanted to somehow get rid of their car, but they needed to steal another car first. They saw Lucas and Chynna's van parked by the highway. At first they didn't see the owner's around, and proceeded to steal the car. Suddenly Lucas and Chynna show up. Being the scared and inexperienced teens that they were, they shot the couple to death. Then they broke the windows of the van, opened its door and tried to start the engine... ****. The van doesn't work. Now they have murdered two people (without originally having the intention), a broken van, and their own car with whatever evidence in it, which they are trying so hard to destroy.

Now they are even more scared. They think there's no evidence to show that they were the murderers. They immediately jump into their car and try to get away as fast as they can. Later, they find another car by the highway, a RAV4, and an old gentleman chilling around. Having already murdered two people and nothing to lose, they kill the gentleman and steal his car. Again thinking that they have left no evidence and can get away with it if they drive really fast and get as far away as possible. They torch their own car, successfully destroy the evidence of what we will probably never know, and drive towards east.

They drive and drive and drive. Nonstop. They still have some hope that they may get away with all they have done. They're probably trying to make up a story to explain their torched car and the route they are taking. They have stole their victims IDs, just to buy themselves some time before the police can identify them and gather more information. At some point, when they are in northern Manitoba, they realize that they are stuck. The police and public know about them, know their faces and actively searching for them.

At this point, they're just too scared and don't really know what to do. They probably tried a few different scenarios: kill another innocent and get their car, hitchhike, etc. Finally, they decide to again torch the RAV4, destroy the evidance of something we may never know, and hide in the woods and wait until the police give up searching for them, or maybe meanwhile try to reach somewhere they can survive without being identified. Whatever their plan was, it went wrong and they ended up dying in the woods.

We may never know the details. But I believe they didn't just randomly decided to go and kill people. They ended up in a situation, got desperate and had to murder people, and after that they just had to go down and down. Kind of like Walter White in Breaking Bad. I don't think they killed people for mental issues or just for the sake of killing. They didn't harm the man who helped them get their car out of the mud although they had the perfect opportunity. I don't think they were evil serial killers. Just two kids (yes, kids) going after some dangerous adventure, and things went horribly wrong. Five lives wasted. What a shame...

Problem with this is that vehicles on the side of a highway in a remote area, mean they are likely not working. Why would they even assume they could steal it? And why would they choose such an old vehicle to steal? They could have gone 20km further to Liard Hot Springs Lodge where there were probably some really nice vehicles to steal, with people out at the lodge or sleeping!