Canada - Lucas Fowler, Chynna Deese, and Leonard Dyck, all murdered, Alaska Hwy, BC, Jul 2019 #14

[LoisLane]

DBM

 

[Deleted member 248860]

I’m a little slow as usual, but on the where did they get a gun from topic: it’s actually really easy to get an unrestricted (rifles and shotguns) gun in Canada. If you’re 18 or older, just take a quick one day course, write an easy multiple choice test, and get your PAL (Possession and Acquisition Licence) in the mail within a month. Go to Canadian Tire and buy a gun. Easy peasy.

By law we have to keep our guns locked - in a gun case or with a trigger or cable lock, and with ammo locked in the case with the gun or stored separately - but surprise, not everyone follows the rules. BS/KM could easily have stolen a gun from a relative. But it’s possible KM had his PAL if he comes from a hunting kind of family. When I took the course for my PAL there were two teenaged girls and a teenaged boy taking the course as well. It’s a thing that happens in very rural communities, especially if they’re rednecky rural areas like mine - it’s almost a rite of passage.

The intense look and staccato way AS said, in the 60 minutes interview, “I. Never. Gave. Him. A. Gun. That. Would. Kill. Someone” makes me think theres an implication there, i.e. someone did give one of them a gun that would kill someone.

.22s are a pretty common first gun.

Largely agree, with these caveats...

The gun safety course and PAL cost about CAD260 plus tax.

My gun safety course took two and a half days, and if you want to hunt, as most do, an additional hunting course is required. For someone with no background in guns, the courses are a little stressful.

Teenagers under 18 can’t get a PAL. They can only get a Minor’s License, which does not enable them to purchase a gun.

McLeod may well have had a PAL and his own gun, or may have “borrowed” one from a relative.

From what I’ve seen, Schmegelsky did not have a PAL, and his father’s statements suggest that family members are not missing a gun. I am disappointed that Australian 60 Minutes did not pursue this question, and others, more thoroughly.

 

[10ofRods]

It’s entirely possible that Kam McLeod had a gun license and a gun of his own, or “borrowed” one from a relative. If so, the RCMP undoubtedly know all about it. For one thing, the RCMP runs the national gun license registry.

Port Alberni is rural enough that there are probably a fair number of people who hunt, making rifles and shotguns not uncommon, and there is also a local fish and game/shooting club.

Yes - that is entirely possible as well. We know for a fact that BS had an air gun (was it actually only firing plastic pellets? That we don't know). But we don't know if Kam had a gun.

How long does it take to process the paperwork to buy a gun in Canada? Here in California, with probably the strictest background checks in the US, I think it's 5-7 days. Once processed, then a person can buy more guns right away. If Kam applied while working at WalMart (I assume WalMart does the processing as gun stores usually do), he could have purchased a gun out of his first paycheck. I also assume that means RCMP had ready access to what type of gun he owned.

I don't think members from other countries fully understand the full extent of Canadian firearms laws. If a firearm was provided by a family member before they departed, that family member and and would very likely be charged, if neither was legally able to posess a firearm (PAL).

If they simply stole a firearm from a family member, there is still a chance that family member could be charged because of our safe storage laws. Firearms are to be locked up in such a way that they can't be easily accessed. Failure to comply will result in the owner being charged and losing their PAL and firearms.

Hunting is popular up here but the fear of losing one's firearms is great. If you loan a firearm to someone who is caught hunting illegally, that firearm will be seized.

According to Canadian law, any gun (air soft or otherwise) that's used in a crime is by definition a gun/weapon at that point. So, Alan S. is certainly not knowledgeable about Canadian gun law or he doesn't mind being charged, as he well might be. If BS didn't have a PAL (and I assume he didn't) and Alan supplied him with an air rifle that has above a 500 fps velocity, then he can certainly be charged (as I understand it). If the replica gun was under 500 fps (AK-47 replicas are not usually low velocity) I don't know how the law would treat that.

Thoughts?

 

[Deleted member 248860]

Duplicate

 

[LoisLane]

DBM

 

[LoisLane]

I do not see how any air type gun/bullet plastic or metal can connect the deaths. a burst of air fires it, there is no strike marks I don't think. it is not a riffled barrel. how can air gun connect?

Maybe LD died of a heart attack as a result of being held up/shot at by what he would have assumed to be a real gun.

 

[Gina20]

Just so strange that AS was in Nanaimo when he found out BS was gone. BS had to take the ferry to the mainland, and one of the ferry routes departs from Nanaimo. If BS had wanted to say goodbye to his father, he could have arranged to see him there, maybe for breakfast or coffee.

 

[sandbar]

Again, it was LD's family that didn't want his cause of death to be released.

Perhaps the RCMP is still trying to figure out CoD? Like maybe the extent of his injuries is beyond ...

I think they used metal pellets in their entry-level gun and just kept firing, possibly ran over them, possibly the set the bodies on fire.

 

[Derek Sutton]

All the discussion about murdering somone with an Airsoft gun.... I mean it would take multiple, point blank, pinpoint precise shots to kill a human with an Airsoft. And to commit suicide by self inflicted Airsoft wound? Highly unlikely IMHO.

There are many number of avenues to acquire an actual firearm. Stolen, Black Market, KM having a PAL, etc.... Not only that but we know nothing of KM and his family. There is a very good chance they kept a .22 on their property to take care of rodents, scavengers, etc... Heck there's also the likely possibility that his Dad was a hunter and had his own stash of shotguns and rifles.

I'm also thinking there is a chance that LF and CD had a gun for their own (wildlife) protection, for their journey which KM and BS got a hold off (struggle during a roadside altercation???). And turned it on the couple, then perhaps later using it on LD as well, if he was indeed shot.

IMO all these scenarios much more likely then having up to 5 people with two possibly being self inflicted, killed by Air-soft.

 

[sandbar]

RCMP have left enough clues to conclude that it is very likely that Dr. Dyck was shot. It would be the most obvious explanation for the 3 murders to be connected. However, the statement from RCMP is that the cause of death of Dr. Dyck will not be released to respect his family.

In the meantime, an Australian reporter has stated as fact that he was shot. No source is provided for this breaking news. I suppose Canadians should conclude that the RCMP is pretending to respect Dr. Dyck and his family, but they have no integrity and secretly released the information to Australia.

Maybe they were shot AND it is not the CoD.

 

[Kiantra]

BS and KM trip route.
Initially I thought they would travel on 97 to Prince George and then up 16 and then 37 to Whitehorse. But, what if they said, forget Whitehorse and kept driving 97 taking them past Hudson Hope area, Pink Mountain and Fort Nelson? If they left Port Alberni early morning on the 12th they could easily be in the same area as L and C.
Is this a possibility? Or am I overthinking this?

 

[Snoop Sister]

[QUOTE="Gina20, post: 15323828, member: 243565"
There were two young men who did whatever they did together. They are responsible for their actions. Both of them. This was their decision. One family or one family member is not solely responsible for this situation. Finances and socioeconomic circumstances don't make one family culpable and the other not. Developmental issues, if there are any, do not discriminate based on social standing.[/QUOTE]
I have said the same...there seems to me that there is some bias due to the home and socioeconomic level of the parents involved. So what - one set of parents appear to have no familial disruptions and live in an upper middle class neighbourhood...big deal. They still are culpable! And, really all the parents are victims. The suspects made their choices and are responsible for their actions.

 

[10ofRods]

I do not see how any air type gun/bullet plastic or metal can connect the deaths. a burst of air fires it, there is no strike marks I don't think. it is not a riffled barrel. how can air gun connect?

We've gotten used to ballistics analysis of bullets as part of forensic evidence. But the mere fact that an air gun was used in the three attacks would be a connection. It would be a very convincing connection, to me, if it was also known that one of the perps had such a gun.

Will everyone be convinced by such evidence? Nope. And maybe that's why no charges were laid for the first two murders. But that's irrelevant now.

If there were fingerprints and evidence of an air gun at both crime scenes, that would be enough for the RCMP, I think. That would be enough to refer the case to the Crown for charges (I'd think) but again, no longer an issue.

Similarly, if it turns out that a particular length knife was used at both crime scenes, that would be a connection, even if the actual knife isn't found or its brand known. The public doesn't have to consider it as proper evidence, but LE certainly can draw conclusions.

 

[sandbar]

BS and KM trip route.
Initially I thought they would travel on 97 to Prince George and then up 16 and then 37 to Whitehorse. But, what if they said, forget Whitehorse and kept driving 97 taking them past Hudson Hope area, Pink Mountain and Fort Nelson? If they left Port Alberni early morning on the 12th they could easily be in the same area as L and C.
Is this a possibility? Or am I overthinking this?

I agree. I think K&B and C&L had an interaction, and it did not go well, to say the least..

 

[scrappinkat]

I agree that he should have been part of a gun club and that would have been the best route for a teen gun lover (I know several, some of them definitely quite troubled during their teens; gun club was a real benefit to them). However, I think you're overestimating B's social abilities. Apparently, he didn't fit in anywhere. Although he was polite to adults, it doesn't sound like he did a lot of activities that brought him into consistent contact with adults (alternative school can mean way less social interaction, mostly one-on-one in many cases, not the way to learn the ropes of actual adult social interaction). Gun club members don't brook any nonsense whatsoever, IME. Almost any kid can be polite to an adult when it gets them something, but over time, cracks appear in that demeanor if the kid is truly as troubled as I think BS was.

Did anyone figure out what model the expensive air soft gun was? What its fps might be? Does it really qualify as an "airsoft" gun under Canadian law or is it classified as a gun? I'm still betting that something that expensive was in the so-called "sniper" class and was well over the 500 fps that gets it qualified, under Canadian law as an "air gun" rather a toy gun. At that price, it's consistent with the highest velocity air guns on the market, and those often come with the extras shown in the pictures.

Air Guns - Royal Canadian Mounted Police


MOO

I believe it is a variation of this model. It’s listed at 370fps.


G&G TR15 Raider Quad Rail AEG Rifle | ReplicaAirguns.ca

By the time you add needed accessories, a sling etc and BBs plus tax it could easily be a $600 purchase and one that is 100% legal within Canadian law as unregulated airsoft. No PAL would be required.

The class you refer to, over the 500fps - would not be sold to anyone without a PAL verification. It would also not be possible to use it in any game of tag since it would kill or grievously wound a person when shot with it. Not to mention that AS does not have any record of any type of firearm related crime. IMO assuming he willingly went out and illegally bought a rifle capable of severe injury and then gave it to his 17 year old son to go and play tag is a tad confusing.

 

[otto]

BS and KM trip route.
Initially I thought they would travel on 97 to Prince George and then up 16 and then 37 to Whitehorse. But, what if they said, forget Whitehorse and kept driving 97 taking them past Hudson Hope area, Pink Mountain and Fort Nelson? If they left Port Alberni early morning on the 12th they could easily be in the same area as L and C.
Is this a possibility? Or am I overthinking this?

I think it's quite likely that they took that route. Whitehorse was a story for Bryer's grandmother and Alberta was a story for his father. I'm curious what Kam told his parents about their planned route.

They were near Liard Hot Springs on July 15, the Jade store on July 18, Dease Lake on July 19. That's consistent with the route you suggest.

 

[Gina20]

Agreed! It was after a few days of no responses and Bryer not even reading his messages. I imagine he was worried and frustrated. I think the fact in the very beginning that he had to ask what to do with the $100 cologne and where BS wanted it sent indicates that he really had no clue what was happening.

MOO

If BS had asked for that cologne for a 19th birthday or school leaving present, I don't find it surprising that his father would give it to him. It seems more economical than some of the gifts kids get now for becoming an adult. (Stand-up paddleboards, all-expenses-paid trips out of the country, etc.)

I won't get into him paying for his own suit, but I will say that in some schools, a new suit is a gift from parents. For girls, prom dresses costing bridal gown prices are the norm.

Yes, $100 sounds very reasonable in those circumstances.

 

[JuneBug67]

Misreporting does happen all the time as well though.

It happens even when it’s on easily confirmable/checkable things. A Globe and Mail article reported that the police dive team combed an area 29 kilometres around the items found on the shore (it was 29 metres ) and a CBC article explained that “Highway 11 is the main route through for people travelling between Manitoba and Ontario” (no it’s not, the distinct highway 11s in the two provinces have nothing to do with each other and don’t connect anything). The above could have been caught with common sense and google maps respectively, so it’s easy to see how more complex things COULD be miscommunicated, misstated, assumed etc. The info could be accurate, but no way to know really.

 

[Deleted member 248860]

Yes - that is entirely possible as well. We know for a fact that BS had an air gun (was it actually only firing plastic pellets? That we don't know). But we don't know if Kam had a gun.

How long does it take to process the paperwork to buy a gun in Canada? Here in California, with probably the strictest background checks in the US, I think it's 5-7 days. Once processed, then a person can buy more guns right away. If Kam applied while working at WalMart (I assume WalMart does the processing as gun stores usually do), he could have purchased a gun out of his first paycheck. I also assume that means RCMP had ready access to what type of gun he owned.

According to Canadian law, any gun (air soft or otherwise) that's used in a crime is by definition a gun/weapon at that point. So, Alan S. is certainly not knowledgeable about Canadian gun law or he doesn't mind being charged, as he well might be. If BS didn't have a PAL (and I assume he didn't) and Alan supplied him with an air rifle that has above a 500 fps velocity, then he can certainly be charged (as I understand it). If the replica gun was under 500 fps (AK-47 replicas are not usually low velocity) I don't know how the law would treat that.

Thoughts?

In Canada, it takes one to three months for the RCMP to process a gun license (PAL) application. This is after completion of the gun safety course, the regularity of which depends on location and season.

Your theory about purchase from Walmart ignores the fact that Walmart Canada, as I have pointed out before, does not sell guns. It sells Airsofts.

You are constantly pushing this idea that Alan Schmegelsky purchased an illegal gun. You have no evidence for that whatever. He has already effectively said that the Airsoft that he purchased Bryer was legal, and there is no credible reason to believe otherwise. As has already been explained at least twice, there is not even a credible method for him to import an illegal gun.

Also, see the post by @scrappinkat above, #128

 

[Snoop Sister]

<modsnip>

Would that still be true if Bryer were found to have a severe developmental disability? If his mental age was, say, 8 years old? Just curious. Is it hard and fast, and based only on chronological age? Would that have been enough for him to plead innocent based on mental health?

I'm guessing that any good defense attorney would ask that he be assessed thoroughly and I wonder what would have happened if he turned out to be both emotionally and mentally way below his apparent age.

Yes, his lawyer would have gone the mental health route for sure. Positive of this!