Canada - Lucas Fowler, Chynna Deese, and Leonard Dyck, all murdered, Alaska Hwy, BC, Jul 2019 #18

[KR72]

So I think saying that people should have known he was a "deranged and dangerous individual" seems like a bit of a stretch.

I didn't say people should have known, I said that all the red flags combined sure make him out that way and that it's too bad that these things weren't picked up upon earlier.

 

[sandbar]

But BS is accused of killing three people. When you look at all of the red flags all he reads like a deranged and dangerous individual. Doxxing other gamers, threatening fellow students, the intense interest in playing war, military/camo, the photo with the gun in his mouth and so on.

But where is the line between normal bonehead behaviour and red flag bonehead behaviour? And who is going to decide?

To be clear: these are rhetorical questions, however a constructive, well considered and thought out response is welcome.

 

[steelybird]

No, that's pretty standard for socially awkward teenagers trying to be edgy. People I knew in high school made way worse jokes than that, and they've never killed anyone (that I know of!)

Pretending to masterbate to hitler is pretty standard for socially awkward teens trying to be edgy?? What?? While it may not be surprising in specific cases, I would hardly say it’s pretty standard.

 

[NJSleuth91]

But where is the line between normal bonehead behaviour and red flag bonehead behaviour? And who is going to decide?

To be clear: these are rhetorical questions, however a constructive, well considered and thought out response is welcome.

I think an entire book could be written on this topic. And probably has!

And, also, a question people don't really think about: when signs are identified, is the response going to be effective?

Let's say, hypothetically, that someone had reported the gun in mouth picture to authorities. Then the cops would have shown up, in full uniforms with guns and all, to Bryer's grandma's house for a "wellness check." Bryer's grandma would be upset and it seems like he went out of his way to not upset her and not let her know about his issues, so he would be upset too. Gossip would also most likely get around town about the cops being at their house.

We know that he was most likely really close to his dad, and that his dad strongly criticized the legal system, and had been arrested on his birthday and Christmas when he was a kid, most likely right in front of him. So between that and the survivalist talk, chances are this dude was very anti-police. And those are the people who are going to be interrogating him to find out his mental state (and they do not do this in a kind manner...trust me), and possibly forcibly dragging him off to the hospital for an evaluation, in handcuffs and everything like a criminal, if they are concerned. And let's not even open the whole can of worms of how people who are 5150ed get treated in the hospital, or the lack of follow-up care afterwards.

So...even if someone had reported it, would the response have actually helped, or would it just have made him withdraw even more and get even more angry at the world? The system is very broken.

Pretending to masterbate to hitler is pretty standard for socially awkward teens trying to be edgy?? What?? While it may not be surprising in specific cases, I would hardly say it’s pretty standard.

I disagree. As I said, I've heard much worse jokes from people who have never been violent. I've probably told much worse jokes myself. I'm not about to get banned by giving examples though LOL.

 

[LoisLane]

Sarah Leamon, AS' lawyer, used to work at Acumen Law in Vancouver, so the media interview someone at her former law firm about a case she is working on now? Just a bit odd to me. There are lots of lawyers in the world. They could have interviewed someone else.

RCMP may have good reason to withhold suspected killer’s last wishes from father, experts say | The Star

I find this odd too! My first thought was these two woman are in competition with each other. KL has written another article prior to SL being named as AS’s lawyer. I think they both specialize in DUI’s. They both have a strong media presence and similar age. When I search one up the other always comes up next in line. Seems dramatic.

 

[Trooper]

Morbid (and possibly stupid) question for people with more of a medical/forensic turn of mind than mine: Trevor Pierre, I believe, mentioned foam at her mouth. What would cause that? I assumed it meant she lived awhile after being shot. Could that also happen if you were shot while running as opposed to having a resting pulse or just casually standing at the door of your van when you're attacked?

MOO

What causes that is a process the body goes thru when life is being extinguished. It is the result of tremendously labored breathing, a mixture of air and fluids forced up by the lungs. Laboured breathing for quite some time, maybe up to 20 minutes, depending on the state of general health before the traumatic injury done.

In an elderly person, for example, it would be the result of possibly a preformed condition, like lung disease, pulmonary hypertension.

In someone Chynna's age and apparent good health, it would be the result of hanging, throttling, poisoning, drowning... catastrophic injury to the lungs, or throat. Catastrophic injury to the femoral arteries, or the carotid artery. .. all or any of these things.

What it does signify is her death was not fast. Shot gun maybe only one factor in her death.

There is anomolies about Miss Deese's death and Mr Fowlers death, and then the death of Prof Dyck. The van was not stolen, not much appeared to have been taken from the van after the occupants were murdered, and the bodies of the former occupants were left outside, in psychological parlance, 'displayed'. Not hidden. Not even covered up.

A reasonable assumption could be that murder was the prime purpose of Kam and Bry intercepting with the Fowler van. In the absence of any other reason. If it wasn't to steal the vehicle, and it doesn't appear to be to steal the belongings, it is left with the fact that it was to steal life.

And since it was their first venture into this realm, as far as is known, it isn't improbable that it was a dogs dinner of chaos, terror, error, horror, and required quite a few goes at it from Kam and Bry. It is hardly rational to expect them to make a clean quick job of this awful task straight up.


These are horrible and unpleasant facts, which murder often throws up right in the face of theories about what nice young men they were and how they should have been looked after a bit better. It is equally possible that they were headed this way regardless of their lot in life.

 

[MistyWaters]

I think an entire book could be written on this topic. And probably has!

And, also, a question people don't really think about: when signs are identified, is the response going to be effective?

Let's say, hypothetically, that someone had reported the gun in mouth picture to authorities. Then the cops would have shown up, in full uniforms with guns and all, to Bryer's grandma's house for a "wellness check." Bryer's grandma would be upset and it seems like he went out of his way to not upset her and not let her know about his issues, so he would be upset too. Gossip would also most likely get around town about the cops being at their house.

We know that he was most likely really close to his dad, and that his dad strongly criticized the legal system, and had been arrested on his birthday and Christmas when he was a kid, most likely right in front of him. So between that and the survivalist talk, chances are this dude was very anti-police. And those are the people who are going to be interrogating him to find out his mental state (and they do not do this in a kind manner...trust me), and possibly forcibly dragging him off to the hospital for an evaluation, in handcuffs and everything like a criminal, if they are concerned. And let's not even open the whole can of worms of how people who are 5150ed get treated in the hospital, or the lack of follow-up care afterwards.

So...even if someone had reported it, would the response have actually helped, or would it just have made him withdraw even more and get even more angry at the world? The system is very broken.



I disagree. As I said, I've heard much worse jokes from people who have never been violent. I've probably told much worse jokes myself. I'm not about to get banned by giving examples though LOL.

In Canada I’d be very surprised if police would’ve shown up on the doorstep, guns drawn, over a teenager’s online photo posing in a manner indicative of self harm. If it was immediately reported medical attention would potentially be required, otherwise later Child Protective Services may’ve intervened. But if B wasn’t receptive to counselling or mental health treatment, depending if a diagnosis was made, no “system” can fix that. From what AS has said, I suspect he might not have encouraged his son if he didn’t believe mental health treatment was required. Unfortunately if both parents are not on the same page, the system cannot fix that either.

 

[NJSleuth91]

In Canada I’d be very surprised if police would’ve shown up on the doorstep, guns drawn, over a teenager’s online photo posing in a manner indicative of self harm. If it was immediately reported Emergency Response would’ve shown up, otherwise Child Protective Services may’ve intervened. But if B wasn’t receptive to counselling or mental health treatment, depending on what was required, no “system” can fix that. From what AS has said, I suspect he might not have encouraged his son if he didn’t believe mental health treatment was required. Unfortunately if both parents are not on the same page, the system cannot fix that either.

Not guns drawn, but guns on their person. CPS doesn't intervene in those cases -- it's usually the cops.

 

[sandbar]

Not guns drawn, but guns on their person. CPS doesn't intervene in those cases -- it's usually the cops.

Toronto Police Service has a multi disciplinary team to address people in crisis, when police are attending a scene. I don't know if that team would attend a call about a picture of someone with a gun in their mouth. They would probably attend if they received a call about someone with a gun in their mouth.

Toronto Police Service :: To Serve and Protect

I'm pretty sure it was set up after Sami Yatim died.

Death of Sammy Yatim - Wikipedia

 

[Optics]

But BS is accused of killing three people. When you look at all of the red flags all he reads like a deranged and dangerous individual. Doxxing other gamers, threatening fellow students, the intense interest in playing war, military/camo, the photo with the gun in his mouth and so on.

This kind of troubles me, it seems we've delved into BS so intensely due to lack of info on Kam McLeod. To assume "BS is accused of killing three people", isn't entirely wrong, however I wish we'd all remind ourselves that "KM" is the other half of that equation. (and in reality we don't know who of them killed or rather pulled the trigger on the victims.

 

[Bluepopsicle]

I'll see if I can dig it up.

About my funeral home question, don’t go to any trouble, I was just curious as I have a friend in the business in Winnipeg. I was told one of them went to Thompson In The Park funeral home, but I don’t know which one and it’s no big deal, I was just curious.

I just wanted to add how much I appreciate your empathy towards others, and how you seem to be looking for the “whys” of human behavior. That, to me, is key to future crime prevention. Or at the very least, preventing even just one.

 

[Trooper]

This kind of troubles me, it seems we've delved into BS so intensely due to lack of info on Kam McLeod. To assume "BS is accused of killing three people", isn't entirely wrong, however I wish we'd all remind ourselves that "KM" is the other half of that equation. (and in reality we don't know who of them killed or rather pulled the trigger on the victims.

There obviously wont be a lot of info in regard to Kam, mainly because his family immediately understood that to open their mouths was the first step on the path to infamy for themselves, as well as their murdering member of the family.

My operative theory is that Kam is the instigator, and the organizer behind the whole shindig. I hark back to Dick and Perry, of 'In Cold Blood' notoriety where Dick, somewhat infantalised and desperate to big note himself relies on Perry to be his instrument in the planned killings and thefts. ..

This belief Dick had of Perry's propensity for murder, which Bry with his threats to decapitate young girls in his home town on a regular basis, knowing the fear it produced , would fit the bill nicely, for Kam as a force he could direct and control.

And may be he was able to direct and control Bry for quite some time, until it all seemed useless and they themselves realized how worthless they really were. I was wondering throughout their cross country journey if they had managed to save enough ammo for their last stand, so to speak, and it did surprise me that they actually had done precisely that.

Instead of adding to their killing score, which , a real anomaly yet again , they did not kill again after Prof Dyck. There were plenty of opportunities, and sure, it may have been a lack of disposable ammo, but somehow, I think they were on the downslide after Prof Dyck anyways, and headed for the inevitable end they came to.

 

[NJSleuth91]

Toronto Police Service has a multi disciplinary team to address people in crisis, when police are attending a scene. I don't know if that team would attend a call about a picture of someone with a gun in their mouth. They would probably attend if they received a call about someone with a gun in their mouth.

Toronto Police Service :: To Serve and Protect

I'm pretty sure it was set up after Sami Yatim died.

Death of Sammy Yatim - Wikipedia

Yeah a lot of large cities, even in the US, are now using mobile crisis response units, so people in mental health crisis don't need the additional stress of dealing with the police. But would Port Alberni, an economically struggling town of 20K people, have that? Also, sad that a person had to die needlessly for that to be set up...that's how it always goes, isn't it?

I definitely know in the US, in a rural-ish town of say 20K people, the cops will definitely show up with guns and handcuffs and interrogations and all, even if all they get is an anonymous and unsubstantiated phone call about a potential that someone might have suicidal ideation. Don't ask me how I know.

This kind of troubles me, it seems we've delved into BS so intensely due to lack of info on Kam McLeod. To assume "BS is accused of killing three people", isn't entirely wrong, however I wish we'd all remind ourselves that "KM" is the other half of that equation. (and in reality we don't know who of them killed or rather pulled the trigger on the victims.

Well, we don't know much about Kam, is the problem, so there isn't as much to discuss. I wish we did, and I hope eventually more information will come out. But right now, as far as we know, there weren't really any obvious red flags for him, and we also have very limited information on his history. My suspicion is, though, that these two weren't so different, and probably had very similar issues (with one of them being more open about it than the other), and that's part of why they were so close.

Also legally, if both of them had committed the murders during the commission of another crime such as assault or armed robbery, they both would have been responsible for all of the murders (felony murder laws). And I think that's how they would have seen it as well. No matter who pulled the trigger, or if it was planned or not, they made it very clear they were in it together, and they accepted the consequences equally.

About my funeral home question, don’t go to any trouble, I was just curious as I have a friend in the business in Winnipeg. I was told one of them went to Thompson In The Park funeral home, but I don’t know which one and it’s no big deal, I was just curious.

I just wanted to add how much I appreciate your empathy towards others, and how you seem to be looking for the “whys” of human behavior. That, to me, is key to future crime prevention. Or at the very least, preventing even just one.

I'll let you know if I come across it again. There wasn't much info in it though, it just said his birthdate and listed the death date as August 7th (the day they were found -- commonly used if the actual death date is unknown).

Thanks. I don't know why this case has gotten to me so much. I've never really been interested in any murder cases before. But I think part of it is I've had a very strong feeling since the beginning that this could have been prevented if just one or two factors had been changed.

 

[Optics]

My operative theory is that Kam is the instigator, and the organizer behind the whole shindig.

Yes, I absolutely agree, and feel he is the lead man. I just hope once the RCMP release their report, we will have more information in that regard. I don't want to dismiss Bryer's involvement but a little part of me feels because his parents had the ability to 'lawyer up', there is an underlying draw to Bryer being painted with such a deep dark brush that Kam may come out 'smelling like a rose' to the general public. We do it here, as 'sleuthers' we always draw into Bryer's past to an extreme, then repeat it, countless more times to a point sometimes that gives an impression that he was the only murder suspect. I feel we should be cautious of that notion.

 

[CinNC]

What causes that is a process the body goes thru when life is being extinguished. It is the result of tremendously labored breathing, a mixture of air and fluids forced up by the lungs. Laboured breathing for quite some time, maybe up to 20 minutes, depending on the state of general health before the traumatic injury done.

In an elderly person, for example, it would be the result of possibly a preformed condition, like lung disease, pulmonary hypertension.

In someone Chynna's age and apparent good health, it would be the result of hanging, throttling, poisoning, drowning... catastrophic injury to the lungs, or throat. Catastrophic injury to the femoral arteries, or the carotid artery. .. all or any of these things.

What it does signify is her death was not fast. Shot gun maybe only one factor in her death.

There is anomolies about Miss Deese's death and Mr Fowlers death, and then the death of Prof Dyck. The van was not stolen, not much appeared to have been taken from the van after the occupants were murdered, and the bodies of the former occupants were left outside, in psychological parlance, 'displayed'. Not hidden. Not even covered up.

A reasonable assumption could be that murder was the prime purpose of Kam and Bry intercepting with the Fowler van. In the absence of any other reason. If it wasn't to steal the vehicle, and it doesn't appear to be to steal the belongings, it is left with the fact that it was to steal life.

And since it was their first venture into this realm, as far as is known, it isn't improbable that it was a dogs dinner of chaos, terror, error, horror, and required quite a few goes at it from Kam and Bry. It is hardly rational to expect them to make a clean quick job of this awful task straight up.


These are horrible and unpleasant facts, which murder often throws up right in the face of theories about what nice young men they were and how they should have been looked after a bit better. It is equally possible that they were headed this way regardless of their lot in life.

A very sobering, jolting "wake up" for me.

 

[ldlager]

Who do you suggest should verify the RCMP's findings?

The report is going to be largely fact, with little interpretation. You can see what to expect from the Danforth Shooter report here:

http://www.torontopolice.on.ca/publ...forth_shootings_findings_of_investigation.pdf

Crown attorney? A judge? Another police force?
I’m not an expert, but the rcmp will be making conclusions and presenting findings with no oversight. We don’t allow this in the corporate world, or in government. Court verdicts can be appealed. There are seemingly no checks and balances in this case.

 

[cherrytree9]

I'll let you know if I come across it again. There wasn't much info in it though, it just said his birthdate and listed the death date as August 7th (the day they were found -- commonly used if the actual death date is unknown).

I also saw a link to this a few days ago and the page was taken down pretty much as soon as it was created.

[Edit: But for those who are interested, I remember seeing the exact same information as NJSleuth91 ]

 

[FactFinder3000]

Why would anyone call for oversight before we've even seen the evidence?

 

[sandbar]

Yeah a lot of large cities, even in the US, are now using mobile crisis response units, so people in mental health crisis don't need the additional stress of dealing with the police. But would Port Alberni, an economically struggling town of 20K people, have that? Also, sad that a person had to die needlessly for that to be set up...that's how it always goes, isn't it?

I definitely know in the US, in a rural-ish town of say 20K people, the cops will definitely show up with guns and handcuffs and interrogations and all, even if all they get is an anonymous and unsubstantiated phone call about a potential that someone might have suicidal ideation. Don't ask me how I know.



Well, we don't know much about Kam, is the problem, so there isn't as much to discuss. I wish we did, and I hope eventually more information will come out. But right now, as far as we know, there weren't really any obvious red flags for him, and we also have very limited information on his history. My suspicion is, though, that these two weren't so different, and probably had very similar issues (with one of them being more open about it than the other), and that's part of why they were so close.

Also legally, if both of them had committed the murders during the commission of another crime such as assault or armed robbery, they both would have been responsible for all of the murders (felony murder laws). And I think that's how they would have seen it as well. No matter who pulled the trigger, or if it was planned or not, they made it very clear they were in it together, and they accepted the consequences equally.



I'll let you know if I come across it again. There wasn't much info in it though, it just said his birthdate and listed the death date as August 7th (the day they were found -- commonly used if the actual death date is unknown).

Thanks. I don't know why this case has gotten to me so much. I've never really been interested in any murder cases before. But I think part of it is I've had a very strong feeling since the beginning that this could have been prevented if just one or two factors had been changed.

Good question! To further complicate things is that Port Alberni doesn't have its own police service, it's policed by the RCMP, and that's an odd position to be a local arm of the national police force. Many small towns and small cities in Canada are in the same position.

 

[FactFinder3000]

Good question! To further complicate things is that Port Alberni doesn't have its own police service, it's policed by the RCMP, and that's an odd position to be a local arm of the national police force. Many small towns and small cities in Canada are in the same position.

Not odd at all and many larger cities have RCMP as their police force as well. It's the default police force unless a given municipality or province wants to form their own.