Canada - Lucas Fowler, Chynna Deese, and Leonard Dyck, all murdered, Alaska Hwy, BC, Jul 2019 #18

[Jen-Knee]

It could have been the families. Around the same time Kam's profile disappeared, his sisters was locked down. All her photos, posts, and friends list are hidden. She may have known his password, since she posted on there before with his account to say she was the best sister ever, or something like that.

I can't imagine Bryer giving his password away, though.

My guess is that Facebook deactivated them.

 

[missy1974]

How would they get the passwords? Even if you set a legacy contact I think you have to prove the person is dead before Facebook hands over the account, like send them a picture of the death certificate or something.

They had them written down somewhere? They knew them? They were logged in on a device that was at home still?

I could see LE via FB shutting them down at the request of the families as well, but not sure how that would work? It does seem that in an emergency, FB cooperates with LE, in and out of the US.

 

[NJSleuth91]

It could have been the families. Around the same time Kam's profile disappeared, his sisters was locked down. All her photos, posts, and friends list are hidden. She may have known his password, since she posted on there before with his account to say she was the best sister ever, or something like that.

I can't imagine Bryer giving his password away, though.

My guess is that Facebook deactivated them.

Didn't they both go down within 20 seconds of each other? I feel like I remember reading that somewhere.

It is a good observation that his sister may have known his password (although I'm guessing she probably didn't, he probably just left his page open on his computer and she snuck on), but that wouldn't explain why Bryer's account went down at the same time. Unless they both had the same password (who knows with these two!)

And it would make sense for her to lock down her profile. I hope she didn't get any messages from creeps asking about her fugitive brother...but we live in a garbage world so she probably did

They had them written down somewhere? They knew them? They were logged in on a device that was at home still?

I could see LE via FB shutting them down at the request of the families as well, but not sure how that would work? It does seem that in an emergency, FB cooperates with LE, in and out of the US.

If I had to guess I would say maybe it was a recommendation from LE to reduce the chance of copycat killers or something. Either that or their accounts were getting spammed a lot due to the media attention and maybe it triggered some kind of algorithm.

 

[Jen-Knee]

Didn't they both go down within 20 seconds of each other? I feel like I remember reading that somewhere.

It is a good observation that his sister may have known his password (although I'm guessing she probably didn't, he probably just left his page open on his computer and she snuck on), but that wouldn't explain why Bryer's account went down at the same time. Unless they both had the same password (who knows with these two!)

And it would make sense for her to lock down her profile. I hope she didn't get any messages from creeps asking about her fugitive brother...but we live in a garbage world so she probably did



If I had to guess I would say maybe it was a recommendation from LE to reduce the chance of copycat killers or something. Either that or their accounts were getting spammed a lot due to the media attention and maybe it triggered some kind of algorithm.

Yeah, I believe they did both go down around the same time.

I hope she hasn't been getting messages either, but she probably did. People can be absolutely horrible. The mama bear in me has been worrying about her a lot.

 

[missy1974]

If I had to guess I would say maybe it was a recommendation from LE to reduce the chance of copycat killers or something. Either that or their accounts were getting spammed a lot due to the media attention and maybe it triggered some kind of algorithm.

It could also be that other users reported their profiles and FB took them down.

 

[Lalalacasbah]

Most spree killers have mental illness, and most of them aren't sociopaths. Most of them also go to prison if they survive. There's a difference between having a mental illness and being criminally insane. Criminal insanity has a very specific definition where basically it's like, you were psychotic and didn't know the difference between right and wrong. Like Andrea Yates. However, having an untreated mental illness definitely can increase the chance of committing a violent act, and you'd be hard pressed to find a spree killer who didn't have any mental illnesses. Usually they have severe depression, anxiety, ADHD, social difficulties, learning disabilities, sometimes psychosis, sometimes they're on the autism spectrum...these guys tend to have a pretty similar profile.

SBM - I think that's an ongoing debate and dependent on the spree killer himself. There seems to be both.

Are Mass Murderers Insane? Usually Not, Researchers Say

I agree about having an undiagnosed mental illness can play into things of course and I agree about some psycho/sociopaths liking prison.

I thought Kam might have psychopathic traits and Bryer a sociopath with mental health issues.

I'm not posting the info below to seem like I'm "enlightening" anyone, I hope it doesn't come off as that. I just find it really interesting and sounds a bit like how I think B&S are... Have to remember many sociopaths and psychopaths live their lives and never commit murder and are successful people and CEOs of companies!

Sociopath:

• A disregard for laws and social mores
• A disregard for the rights of others
• A failure to feel remorse or guilt
• A tendency to display violent behavior

In addition to their commonalities, sociopaths and psychopaths also have their own unique behavioral characteristics, as well.

Sociopaths tend to be nervous and easily agitated. They are volatile and prone to emotional outbursts, including fits of rage. They are likely to be uneducated and live on the fringes of society, unable to hold down a steady job or stay in one place for long. In the eyes of others, sociopaths will appear to be very disturbed. Any crimes committed by a sociopath, including murder, will tend to be haphazard, disorganized and spontaneous rather than planned.

Psychopath:

Psychopaths, on the other hand, are unable to form emotional attachments or feel real empathy with others, although they often have disarming or even charming personalities. Psychopaths are extremely manipulative and can easily gain people’s trust.

When committing crimes, psychopaths carefully plan out every detail in advance and often have contingency plans in place. Unlike their sociopathic counterparts, psychopathic criminals are cool, calm, and meticulous. Their crimes, whether violent or non-violent, will be highly organized and generally offer few clues for authorities to pursue. Intelligent psychopaths make excellent white-collar criminals and "con artists" due to their calm and charismatic natures.

The cause of psychopathy is different than the cause of sociopathy (1). It is believed that psychopathy is largely the result of “nature” (genetics) while sociopathy is more likely the result of “nurture” (environment).

How to Tell a Sociopath from a Psychopath

 

[MistyWaters]

So the talk about FB got me looking, I don't think it requires a subpoena in some cases, like emergencies... for example, maybe 2 fugitives on the run that are wanted for murder and LE is looking for any sort of location data? JMO

Safety Center

International Legal Process Requirements
We disclose account records solely in accordance with our terms of service and applicable law. A Mutual Legal Assistance Treaty request or letter rogatory may be required to compel the disclosure of the contents of an account. Further information can be found here.


Emergency Requests
In responding to a matter involving imminent harm to a child or risk of death or serious physical injury to any person and requiring disclosure of information without delay, a law enforcement official may submit a request through the Law Enforcement Online Request System. Note: We will not review or respond to requests submitted by non-law enforcement officials. Users aware of an emergency situation should immediately and directly contact local law enforcement officials.



And this was published by FB, and shows numbers of requests, what kind of requests and the countries, thought it was interesting.

Facebook Transparency Report | Gov Data Requests

ETA: link to info about mutual legal assistance requests(didn't look to see if US is part of this, but I assume so?) Mutual Legal Assistance Requests Made by Canada

I’m not going to even attempt to guess whether their flight from BC constitutes “imminent harm”.

Google is also used for tracking to assist in criminal investigations although we don’t know if it was attempted in this one.

Tracking Phones, Google Is a Dragnet for the Police
“The new orders, sometimes called “geofence” warrants, specify an area and a time period, and Google gathers information from Sensorvault about the devices that were there. It labels them with anonymous ID numbers, and detectives look at locations and movement patterns to see if any appear relevant to the crime. Once they narrow the field to a few devices they think belong to suspects or witnesses, Google reveals the users’ names and other information.”

 

[Lalalacasbah]

So who do you think took their accounts down? Because they were in the middle of nowhere.

How would I know? I only thought them as I didn't think FB had the legal right to.

Now that I know they can disable an account if someone reports it as offensive that might be what happened. I do not think FB shut them down because they were fugitives.

 

[Lalalacasbah]

So the talk about FB got me looking, I don't think it requires a subpoena in some cases, like emergencies... for example, maybe 2 fugitives on the run that are wanted for murder and LE is looking for any sort of location data? JMO

Safety Center

International Legal Process Requirements
We disclose account records solely in accordance with our terms of service and applicable law. A Mutual Legal Assistance Treaty request or letter rogatory may be required to compel the disclosure of the contents of an account. Further information can be found here.


Emergency Requests
In responding to a matter involving imminent harm to a child or risk of death or serious physical injury to any person and requiring disclosure of information without delay, a law enforcement official may submit a request through the Law Enforcement Online Request System. Note: We will not review or respond to requests submitted by non-law enforcement officials. Users aware of an emergency situation should immediately and directly contact local law enforcement officials.



And this was published by FB, and shows numbers of requests, what kind of requests and the countries, thought it was interesting.

Facebook Transparency Report | Gov Data Requests

ETA: link to info about mutual legal assistance requests(didn't look to see if US is part of this, but I assume so?) Mutual Legal Assistance Requests Made by Canada

Good point. I was digging to find info but more for articles, so thank you LE may have denied the deletion it in the media to not tip them off. I have no idea. I have my opinion but who knows...

 

[Lalalacasbah]

the families?

The families might have report the accounts as fake or offensive just to get them disabled to protect themselves and other family. It seems anyone can report an account as offensive so possible for sure.

 

[Lalalacasbah]

Yeah, I believe they did both go down around the same time.

I hope she hasn't been getting messages either, but she probably did. People can be absolutely horrible. The mama bear in me has been worrying about her a lot.

Me too, very sad for her. It has to be tough.

 

[NJSleuth91]

SBM - I think that's an ongoing debate and dependent on the spree killer himself. There seems to be both.

Are Mass Murderers Insane? Usually Not, Researchers Say

Oh, THIS article again. I've had arguments on Facebook before about THIS article LOL.

(What I wrote here is kind of sarcastic...but it's not directed at you, it's directed at whoever wrote this article)

First of all, again, there's a difference between "insane" and "mentally ill," as I said.

It is true that severe mental illnesses are found more often among mass murderers. About one in five are likely psychotic or delusional, according to Dr. Michael Stone, a forensic psychiatrist at Columbia University who maintains a database of 350 mass killers going back more than a century. The figure for the general public is closer to 1 percent.

So mass murderers have 20x the rate of psychosis of the general population...but there isn't a link between mental illness and violence. Sure.

But the rest of these murderers do not have any severe, diagnosable disorder.

So they're really out here trying to say that 20% of these shooters have psychosis and...the rest of them are perfectly mentally healthy. None of these shooters have depression, anxiety, bipolar disorder, personality disorders, or any of the other mental illnesses out there. Right.

The overall rate of any psychiatric history among mass killers — including such probable diagnoses as depression, learning disabilities or A.D.H.D. — was 48 percent.

Ok, that's psychiatric history. Not every person with a mental illness gets diagnosed. In fact a lot of them don't. And my guess is a lot of these mass shooters were not getting proper treatment, or else, well, they probably wouldn't have gone out and killed people.

Also even going by psychiatric history, that's about 2.5x the rate of mental illness compared to the general population. But sure, there's no link between mental illness and violence.

And then as the cherry on top of the "who cares about facts when you've got an agenda" sundae, they actually cited Dylann Roof as an example of a mass killer with no mental illness, when it is well known that he acted as his own lawyer specifically to prevent his mental health records from being released because he didn't agree with whatever he was diagnosed with.

EDIT: Same with Stephen Paddock: Investigators believe Las Vegas gunman had severe undiagnosed mental illness: Sources and Christopher Harper-Mercer: Oregon shooter: New details emerge about Chris Harper-Mercer - oregonlive.com Two other shooters that this hard-hitting piece of journalism cited as having no mental illnesses.

But if you don't agree with my analysis here's a challenge...look at the accounts of mass shooters in the media and see what percentage of them you can find that had clear symptoms of a mental illness.

I'm sort of amazed this article ever got published, but I guess it is the NYTimes, can't expect much.

 

[Sillybilly]

These two young men don't fit into the category of either mass killers or serial killers, and at this time it is not possible to definitively classify them as spree killers until more information comes to light from LE.

Please move on from this particular discussion so as not to derail the thread with information that may not be relevant.

 

[Lalalacasbah]

DBM

 

[Adelaide]

I've been thinking about this case a lot and reflecting on an experience my husband and I had when we were travelling the North Island of New Zealand a few years back. We were driving on a country road early in the morning, travelling at about 90km/hour, with no other traffic on the road. A car appeared from a side road and pulled onto the road in front of us, causing us to slow right down. My husband overtook the car and we continued on. Not long after, the same car sped up and overtook us. While overtaking us, the driver tried to run us off the road. The passenger of the car was yelling out and thumping the side of their car as they drove past. The driver of the car then slowed down again once he got in front of us. This cat and mouse game continued along a lonely stretch of road until the driver pulled up in the middle of the road just before an intersection, blocking our way. Again, there was no traffic around.

The driver of that vehicle opened his car door as though he was going to get out. My husband did the same. Eventually the guy shut his door and turned left at the intersection. My husband turned right at the intersection and I'm pretty sure he broke every speed limit until we reached the next town.

There are a few things I'll never forget about the incident: the look of anger on the passenger's face as they tried to run us off the road; the incomprehensibility of it (we had done nothing to provoke it); and the control that two strangers suddenly had over us on a lonely stretch of road. It's pure speculation on my part, but it's always seemed a possibility to me that a similar scenario played out with Professor Dyck.

 

[srper2]

I have been thinking about the report by the cabbie who believes either BS or KM called and asked the cost of a cab on the afternoon of 22nd July doesn't seem to have been confirmed or denied by RCMP. I am wondering if one or both of them decided they had enough and wanted to leave, while the other didn't want to. Maybe they thought they could dump LD's vehicle and cab it out. Maybe one was the killer and the other dragged along and had enough. Perhaps they didn't have enough money left to cover the cost, so that option flew out the window. The next day they burnt the vehicle and headed into the bush. Police started coming into the area and options to leave closed. link: We’re for Sydney | Daily Telegraph

 

[Moriarty]

DBM problem with the auto quote

 

[Moriarty]

I have been thinking about the report by the cabbie who believes either BS or KM called and asked the cost of a cab on the afternoon of 22nd July doesn't seem to have been confirmed or denied by RCMP. I am wondering if one or both of them decided they had enough and wanted to leave, while the other didn't want to. Maybe they thought they could dump LD's vehicle and cab it out. Maybe one was the killer and the other dragged along and had enough. Perhaps they didn't have enough money left to cover the cost, so that option flew out the window. The next day they burnt the vehicle and headed into the bush. Police started coming into the area and options to leave closed. link: We’re for Sydney | Daily Telegraph

Unfortunately I can’t see your linked article and can’t seem to find any of the original ones that were published when this news first came out. Can you post some of the details again?

From what I remember, the call came sometime before KM and BS were seen at Split Lake and was asking for a ride out to Byrd but the cabbie stated his vehicle couldn’t go out that way because of the bad roads (which seems strange considering all those RCMP trailers with boats and equipment made it out there, but who knows). The cabbie deleted his call record on his phone so he couldn’t find the original number but thought it was a voice he didn’t recognize. You would think he would remember if the area code of the incoming call was a B.C. number but it wasn't mentioned in the article I saw.

The Rav was found burning that same night, July 22 at around 7pm.
You’re right though, I don’t remember anymore mention of this taxi or the call.

 

[Jan424]

Maybe he liked vodka and ginger? Good observation about the food. He probably did go nuts in hiding if they didn't get to eat!

I think these two were probably very immature and naive even though they thought they were smart. I think their plan was probably detail orientated and they were prepared in a sense possibly BUT with neither of them having any real world/practical experience - that's what messed them up I think. JMO

Yes I can see there being some type of plan in their heads that just didn’t go as expected.

 

[cartman]

Unfortunately I can’t see your linked article and can’t seem to find any of the original ones that were published when this news first came out. Can you post some of the details again?

From what I remember, the call came sometime before KM and BS were seen at Split Lake and was asking for a ride out to Byrd but the cabbie stated his vehicle couldn’t go out that way because of the bad roads (which seems strange considering all those RCMP trailers with boats and equipment made it out there, but who knows). The cabbie deleted his call record on his phone so he couldn’t find the original number but thought it was a voice he didn’t recognize. You would think he would remember if the area code of the incoming call was a B.C. number but it wasn't mentioned in the article I saw.

The Rav was found burning that same night, July 22 at around 7pm.
You’re right though, I don’t remember anymore mention of this taxi or the call.

Speaking for myself I’d like to know more about this. Same goes for the bearded man seen talking to LF. In my opinion it feels like these incidents were dismissed without any explanation. There was a press conference where someone asked about the bearded man and, IIRC, the response was brief and curt. Maybe the RCMP looked into it and determined it to be nothing. But that hasn’t been conveyed to us and for me that only makes me question it more.